Phoneutria pictures

[Scorpendra]

Do fights break out whenever other potentially deadly bugs are mentioned? I don't pay close enough attention.

Beautiful pics, BjörnE. Pho's are too hot for me, but I still like them. I find it very interesting how people manage animals like these.

 

[Venom]

Here's a reference on funnel web bites

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15850438

Some things to note

Overall, of 198 potential bites, and 138 confirmed bites, 77 were "severe"

so for this group as a whole, the rate of severe envenomation is 39-56%. That's way higher than for Lactrodectus species or Phoneutria

within the class, H Cerebea and H Formidibalis had severe envenomation rates of 75% and 63% - ARobustus by contrast 17%

Now lets put this in persepctive.

If you read and believe the lay literature - in the days before antivenom, an ARobustus bite was considered a death sentance.

This should give some uidea of how grossly exaggerated the reputations of venomous animals amongst the general public

Now - a caveat here - There are many conditions and experiences that are very uncomfortable - to the person going thru it, might seem like hell, might seem like it was the battle of a lifetime - but in true medical fact it was just uncomfortable and never life threatening.

So what medical folks think of as "significant" and what the general public would relate that way do differ. "Were you uncomfortable?" , and "how eager would you be to go thru that again" are totally different questions from "How much real danger were you in?"

When it's all said and done - I think you take a far greater risk anytime you text or phone while driving than you would if you deliberately got a PFera pissed off enuff to tag you. (the bite would likely hurt worse, and you'd remember it more, but the texting while driving is far more likely to be lethal)

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

Well said! Very informative post.

 

[Fran]

A very likely faint and possible cardiac arrest is an "uncomfortable experience".


Since you are so aware of the symtoms, and you think it will only leave you with an "uncomfortable experience" then why dont you try yourself a bite from them?
That would a first hand experience, a lot of help for the keepers

 

[blacktara]

A very likely faint and possible cardiac arrest is an "uncomfortable situation".

Dude, syncope, unless caused by a major cardiac dysrhythmia (as opposed to a spider bite) is hardly lethal

And the possibility of cardiac arrest vs the probability of even modest hemodynamic compromise, much less full cardiac arrest - are two VERY different things

 

[blacktara]

A very likely faint and possible cardiac arrest is an "uncomfortable experience".


Since you are so aware of the symtoms, and you think it will only leave you with an "uncomfortable experience" then why dont you try yourself a bite from them?
That would a first hand experience, a lot of help for the keepers

The same reason that you dont (I presume) routinely whack yourself on the nuts with a ballpeen hammer - just cuz it's not likely to kill me doesnt mean I am eager to do something silly that will l,still ikely result in an ER visit costing at least a few hundred clams

Let's start this simple. Give me the journal reference that quantifies what you mean by "a very likely faint"

We can go forward from there

 

[Fran]

Dude, syncope, unless caused by a major cardiac dysrhythmia (as opposed to a spider bite) is hardly lethal

And the possibility of cardiac arrest vs the probability of even modest hemodynamic compromise, much less full cardiac arrest - are two VERY different things

so because you wont probably die, that means is like a "bubu".
Jeesus christ.

 

[blacktara]

so because you wont probably die, that means is like a "bubu".
Jeesus christ.

No - because you are extremely unlikely to die, running around screaming about how potentially lethal these are is unwarrented

There's a big area between significant mortality and just a bubu

(I always spelled it booboo by the way) -

 

[Venom]

A very likely faint and possible cardiac arrest is an "uncomfortable situation".

Essentially, yes...if you aren't actually experiencing the cardiac affects. Until you heart is actually affected --arythmia, tachycardia or something of that nature--then you are suffering, but not in danger. That's why the study blacktara linked to differentiates between "mild" and "severe" envenomings. Some are serious, some aren't. With Phoneutria, studies show the proportion of serious to non-serious bites drastically slants the odds in your favor of not being in too much actual danger.


If all you experience are unpleasant symptoms, and nothing serious happens, then you have had an "uncomfortable experience."

I'm not saying we should take these lightly, by any means. Neither is Blacktara. But--see them for what they are. They are NOT as bad as YOU think they are!

 

[neubii18]

thats the brazillian wandering spider,AKA the banana spider right?and your holding that?whats the point?if it bites you,which is likely,you will be in excrutiating pain,and your life will be at risk,for what?the satisfaction of knowing that your held a highly venomous ,super aggressive spider?

 

[blacktara]

Here's one to chew on

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/112228906/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0


The abstract here is not enough to draw firm conclusion - but suggest that even unanivenomed bites from species like mamba, puff adder, and cobra have much lower mortality than is commonly believed

The big questions I see are

1) they mention that 89 of 274 got one particular polyvalent antivenom - did some number of others get other antivenom? if so, which and how many?

2) whats the breakdown between deaths , species, and administration of any antivenom for each species

Remember now - the common thinking is that you get bitten by a mamba and dont get antivenom, then you have maybe an hour or so to your affairs in order. Turns out it just isnt that dramatic

(this ones worth the price to download the full text - I have my reading material for the evening)

 

[neubii18]

frieken sweet spider though,forgot to say that!

 

[blacktara]

thats the brazillian wandering spider,AKA the banana spider right?and your holding that?whats the point?if it bites you,which is likely,you will be in excrutiating pain,and your life will be at risk,for what?the satisfaction of knowing that your held a highly venomous ,super aggressive spider?

He's not holding a live Phoneitrua.

One pic appears to be him holding a dead spider

One appears to be of his hand on glass or plastic behind spider with eggsac sitting on or at side of enclosure

Now, here on the other hand are some pics to ponder (off the net, not mine)

http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1416/1487081296_0d3adcd9c5.jpg

http://belaray.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/200px-phoneutria_nigriventer.jpg

I found a pic once of a PFera I think in threat posture on the back of a guy's thumb

Again - think this thru - do these spiders go around biting the substrate they walk on? NO!

Does that mean doing what the people in the above pics are doing is wise? NO!!

and let's define super aggressive

if you're a tasty beetle or such creature, Phoneutria is likely to be aggressive - super aggressive if hungry.

if you are a being that isnt food and that is several thousand times the spider's size, it might be "aggressively defensive" - and yes I know that they have been reported to run up a broom handle AT a person

but remember - no Phoneutria EVER messed with a human that didnt mess with IT first (even if accidentally) -

super aggressive would be if they came at you with lethal intent whenever they saw a human

 

[blacktara]

Misinformed humans are orders of magnitude more potentially lethal to Phoneutria (and than the other way around

I'd say that's true for most if not all venomous critters out there

 

[Fran]

but remember - no Phoneutria EVER messed with a human that didnt mess with IT first (even if accidentally) -

super aggressive would be if they came at you with lethal intent whenever they saw a human

What a great reasoning.
No animal would do that, but thats not what we are discussing.

Keeping them is messing with them, by the way. Forget about handling them.

so basically we pull some data and we transform the whole thing into a just "an uncomfortable bite".

Again, then why dont you try the bite. It would be a great info, first hand.
If you are so aware and so sure of the effects, try it. I will pay for the spiders.

 

[Beardo]

*sigh* Why are some people so quick to tell others what they should be doing? The level of fear-mongering I see about these spiders is ridiculous.

 

[xhexdx]

He's not holding it

Hand on glass behind spider sitting on side of enclosure

Proof you are a troll by specifically targeting Fran's posts and responding only to them:

Excellent photos of some beautiful spiders!
Is this specimen dead?

http://www.abload.de/img/peruferakyuu.jpg

Actually holding something like this otherwise seems pretty careless right? :?
-Chris

PS:

For sure, the shown female specimen (Phoneutria fera ex Peru RCF)was dead, you funny guys^^

This has been discussed over and over again in the now LOCKED thread. Why can't you guys just cut it out? Agree to disagree and be done with it.

 

[TheTyro]

Isn't there already a big long Phoeutria thread where similar things were being debated over? I thought this was a picture thread.

Anyways, I LOVE the way these spiders look, there is a refined ferocity in their shape and coloration that is really pleasing to the eye.

I think if I ever go to South America, I'll look for these guys...probably be one of my only chances to see them in person. Makes me wonder what interesting species of spider Guatemala has...

 

[Venom]

Proof you are a troll by specifically targeting Fran's posts and responding only to them:

But, you just posted specifically to Blacktara...

Guess that makes you a troll.

 

[xhexdx]

Right...but I'm not posting crap that's already answered (answered incorrectly by blacktara, btw) while responding to someone's post.

You just responded to me, so does that make you a troll too? I don't think it does, but I could be wrong.

 

[MrDeranged]

grrrrrr.................

To be addressed shortly....