Phoneutria pictures

[paul fleming]

If you were referring to this:



Then yes, you're right.

Really, guys?

Yes, beautiful spiders.

Why does Paul get flamed for holding an Andro but this guy doesn't get flamed for holding a Pho?

I know,I also got slated for tailing the Lq and the handling the M.gigas........rather unfair if you ask me
Thanks Fran
They are nice pics though,you have to be fair mate.......pho looks amazing...mmmmmm
Looks like the only way to get better pics is to handle hahni........only joking.

 

[loxoscelesfear]

The person who took these photos is dead... ok ok i couldn't help myself. great pictures and big spiders. wow.

 

[paul fleming]

I may have to order this sp.
They look......wow
A bit safer than hahni anyway (in a venom kind of way).

 

[Bjoern Elksnat]

Someone asked me because of feeding.

Ok, so I do:

1st molt: springtails (Folsomia candida)
2nd molt: little fruitflies (Drosophila melanogaster)
3rd molt: big fruitflies (Drosophila hydei)
4th molt: baby crickets (Acheta domestica)

after this, the whole cricket or cockroach size row up, it works good for me.

regards,

Björni

PS:

For sure, the shown female specimen (Phoneutria fera ex Peru RCF)was dead, you funny guys^^

But when you want to see a alive Phoneutria species (pregnant nigriventer), who is really handled, look here:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/techuser/1486283981/in/set-72157603167029346/

And you can see: they are no monsters...

DON`T TRY THIS AT HOME!!!!

And I would NEVER do. But it shows in full experienced hands, that these animals have not the wish to kill all mankind on earth

So, you all, you have never kept these species before -> open your mind!!

{Hey Björni, you are telling to a American community, don`t let give too much energy away for preaching and teaching... }

One important WARNING:

They can smell steroids and attack directly!!!

Just a joke, Fran! don`t care...

You`ve written that you have read your whole life about spiders.

So, do you think, you would have had you 48-cm-arms, when you have alltime read only bodybuilding and powerlifting books?

 

[John Apple]

I thought of spring tails for first feedings but could not aquire them....they seem to eat a couple small therid babies well then shed....thanx for the info on feedings Bjorn....

 

[moose35]

One important WARNING:

They can smell steroids and attack directly!!!

Just a joke, Fran! don`t care...

haha......excellent


moose

oh yea... those are some beautiful spiders.

 

[Frédérick]

meh....that was a little tasteless Bjorni, I am pretty sure you can do better than personal attacks...but then again, I've done mistakes too in that department so. By the way, there are also Canadians on this forum, or do you include us in the term ''Americans''?

Anyway, nice specimens you have there, god luck with the slings!

Fred

 

[Malhavoc's]

as someone who was in europe for a bit particularly germany and got to meet some of the keepers of this species.

They are quite fascinating spiders, the europeans keep very good care of them and I never ran into a mishandling case, that lead to any injury to spider or person.

however, I do not forsee me owning one in the future.

Also as far as Bjorne,No offense intended, however to clarify for some, alot of meaning can be lost in translation from german to english its a whole nother culture. as you can tell from what spiders they can keep

 

[blacktara]

Let's put something in proper perspective.

Potentially deadly

Here's a medical article

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10742722

400+ cases

0.5% of bites severe envenomation

2 very young children with severe illness.

1 death

Less than 5% of patients even needing antivenom

Potentially deadly - but highly unlikely to be anything more than an uncomfortable experience.

 

[blacktara]

There is a huge difference between "potentially deadly" and "significantly likely to be deadly"

Unless you are very young, very old, or have significant preexisting systemic disease like bad heart disease or severe hypertension -

as far as I can tell from the medical lit out there, the ONLY spiders that can be considered to truly have significant potential to be deadly would be

Atrax robustus and a couple of the hadronyche species - (northern tree funnel web and Frasier Island funnel web)

Of these, it's the latter that I would least want to be bitten by - mostly because if you are where you need to be to run into one of them, then the chances of you being too far from antivenom are significant

 

[Venom]

There is a huge difference between "potentially deadly" and "significantly likely to be deadly"

Unless you are very young, very old, or have significant preexisting systemic disease like bad heart disease or severe hypertension -

as far as I can tell from the medical lit out there, the ONLY spiders that can be considered to truly have significant potential to be deadly would be

Atrax robustus and a couple of the hadronyche species - (northern tree funnel web and Frasier Island funnel web)

Of these, it's the latter that I would least want to be bitten by - mostly because if you are where you need to be to run into one of them, then the chances of you being too far from antivenom are significant

Well, and the Sicarius also. Latrodectids still kill a number of people every year around the globe (death rate for untreated bites, averaged across all age and health demographics is 4-6% for most species). And Loxosceles laeta, gaucho, and intermedia do have fatalities every so often ( systemic envenomations from L. laeta and intermedia have a 1.5% fatality rate, according to this article: http://www.ajtmh.org/cgi/reprint/71/2/239.pdf ). The jury is still out on Missulena spp., but they are probably capable of killing. But that's about it for "deadly" species.

 

[Fran]

Potentially deadly - but highly unlikely to be anything more than an uncomfortable experience.

hahaha, this is the best sentence from this guy so far.

 

[Venom]

hahaha, this is the best sentence from this guy so far.

Um..what about that sentence doesn't make sense? Widow spiders can also be described just exactly like that. So can some venomous snakes. Nothing in his terminology is wrong there, bud.

And I find it strange that you refer to him as "this guy," when in fact he's better known here than you are. You have a habit of railing against and belittling people who have been here a lot longer than you have. Know who you're criticizing before you fire off your mouth.

 

[Fran]

Um..what about that sentence doesn't make sense? Widow spiders can also be described just exactly like that. So can some venomous snakes. Nothing in his terminology is wrong there, bud.

And I find it strange that you refer to him as "this guy," when in fact he's better known here than you are. You have a habit of railing against and belittling people who have been here a lot longer than you have. Know who you're criticizing before you fire off your mouth.

hahaha, Really.Really, pick a better fight.

You have serious problems , "bud".

If you think a Phoneutria bite would only leave u with "an uncomfortable experience" then you REALLY need to step out and get some information before missguiding potential keepers.

 

[Venom]

hahaha, Really.Really, pick a better fight.

You have serious problems , "bud".

Fran, this thread started out just fine. You are the element causing the strife and picking a fight. What was wrong with "Potentially deadly - but highly unlikely to be anything more than an uncomfortable experience." ??? That's a perfectly legitimate description. Why would you pick up on that to make a negative comment? It makes perfect sense to me. Anyone else here baffled? :?

If you think a Phoneutria bite would only leave u with "an uncomfortable experience" then you REALLY need to step out and get some information before missguiding potential keepers.

I'm sorry, but you just do not have an accurate understanding of this species' venom, nor its effects on humans. Most bites do NOT produce life-threatening symptoms. The fatality rate is very, very low. Their venom contains an extremely virulent neurotoxin---contains---, but that toxin is relatively dilute within the matrix of the whole venom. Also, despite their size and the quantity of venom they carry, they do not inject their full venom load with a single bite--unlike Atrax/ Hadronyche. Yes, they are potent still, and yes, there is the potential for a life-threatening condition stemming from the bite. But a serious envenomation is far from guaranteed, and death is not at all the likely outcome.

The only real difference between Phoneutria, and other toxic species, is that Phoneutria is more agile and mobile--the whole running/ jumping skill set due to it being both arboreal and terrestrial-equipped. Hence, it is able to "reach out and get you" more easily. But..that is temperament dependent, and there again your probably over-estimating these.

They are not the doomsday-bug, they are just one more beautiful spider we have the option of safely keeping.

 

[jbm150]

Yeesh, less bickering, more pictures. Beautiful spiders and great pics, thank you for sharing them!


Question about Phoneutria, I imagine they're visual hunters, at least in part, so how far away can they pick out their prey?

 

[syndicate]

For sure, the shown female specimen (Phoneutria fera ex Peru RCF)was dead, you funny guys^^

Thats what I thought!

 

[blacktara]

A widow bite is POTENTIALLY deadly, but rarely ever so, unless the person is very young, very old, or very sick before receiving the bite

I have treated quite a few widow bites. (actually saw the spider once, the guy brought it to the ER - appeared to be mactans - the others wouldve been mactans, variolus, or hesperus but not exactlky sure which - never treated one in an area where geometricus or bishopii were endemic) Only once I can remember did the person need anything more than what would be considered supportive care. Most widow bites amount to the equivalent of a case of the flu.

The case where the guy brought the spider in was during my residency training - summer of 1997 if I recall correctly) - a trucker who stopped at a rest area, sat down at a picnic bench and leaned against a piece of wood and got tagged - brought the spider with him to the ER in a cup - he was hospitalzied two days, did not get antivenoim, got pain meds and a dose or two of calcium gluconate, and IV fluids). He had moderately severe body aches and muscle cramps, never was unstable, never had any lab abnoirmalities, never in anything approaching life threatening danger. ( I took the spider home and kept it for a while but it had lost a leg in the incident and died about a week later and had a ruptured abdomen when dead)

Recluse bites CAN be devastating as far as disfigurement - tho again, while a degree of necrosis is the norm a true severe disfigurement is NOT the norm

Never dealth with a Sicarius bite

I can believe that Latrodectus bites in less developed areas of the world where what we would consider to be routine supportive care may be much less available could be more of an issue than in the US.

Would I volunteer to be bitten by a Phoneutria? NO!

Is it necessarily or even frquantly a medical emergancy if one is bitten by a Phoneutria? NO!

I challenge anyone to show me a scientific, evidence based study published in a reputable medical journal that shows "significant" mortality

 

[blacktara]

Fran - read the dang journal article I posted a reference to

85% of the bites were mild envenomations - supportive care, pain, local symptoms

Dang - read Bucherl's text on it

I mean you wont believe what you dont want to believe, but that doesnt change the facts

Dude, if this spider was a significant threat to human life and limb, Sao Paolo would be ininhabitable - ok?

 

[blacktara]

Here's a reference on funnel web bites

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15850438

Some things to note

Overall, of 198 potential bites, and 138 confirmed bites, 77 were "severe"

so for this group as a whole, the rate of severe envenomation is 39-56%. That's way higher than for Lactrodectus species or Phoneutria

within the class, H Cerebea and H Formidibalis had severe envenomation rates of 75% and 63% - ARobustus by contrast 17%

Now lets put this in persepctive.

If you read and believe the lay literature - in the days before antivenom, an ARobustus bite was considered a death sentance.

This should give some uidea of how grossly exaggerated the reputations of venomous animals amongst the general public

Now - a caveat here - There are many conditions and experiences that are very uncomfortable - to the person going thru it, might seem like hell, might seem like it was the battle of a lifetime - but in true medical fact it was just uncomfortable and never life threatening.

So what medical folks think of as "significant" and what the general public would relate that way do differ. "Were you uncomfortable?" , and "how eager would you be to go thru that again" are totally different questions from "How much real danger were you in?"

When it's all said and done - I think you take a far greater risk anytime you text or phone while driving than you would if you deliberately got a PFera pissed off enuff to tag you. (the bite would likely hurt worse, and you'd remember it more, but the texting while driving is far more likely to be lethal)

Now - I am NOT saying that it's ok for every novice and their grandma to hitch the next charter to Brazil so they can grab Phoneutria with their bare hands and tease it while allowing it to cavort on their nether regions - or even that it's a spider that novices should consider keeping or that even pros dont need to treat with respect. It's also not an excuse for anyone to own one.

But I am saying that scare mongering and bad information dont do anyone any good here