Just a point on Sexing out Females for people

[NateTheGreat]

Now...what could be done is that he sexes out 30 slings of 100. Lets say he gets 15 males and 15 females.

He can sell the females as females, and the males as males. The remaining spiders(70) would still be unsexed.

(however, going through to get a definite female, and putting back probable males, would be dishonest).

Yeah, just said that.

I really think if someone gets upset at having a male instead of a female,they have no part in this hobby.

I personally won't care whether my T's turn out to be male or female. But to say someone shouldn't be in the hobby if they get upset when finding out their T is a male is ridiculous. Maybe anyone who is pretentious enough to say that another person should be excluded from something they enjoy due to a personal preference (a very common one at that) has no business in the hobby (I'm kidding of course, just trying to make a point). And if Ken or any other dealer does not want to sex out females for anyone, of course, they don't have to. BUT, as dtknow and I pointed out, there is a way to do it fairly, and as I showed (I think, at least, maybe some one will tell me otherwise) it would happen by itself, in the process of sexing out the females. So, if other breeders wish to do it, then let them be.

They are all spiders.
How about we start doing the same with our kids ?

You're not really trying to compare bugs to human children... are you?:wall::wall:

 

[jayefbe]

He is only going to to keep aside the females he wants,the rest of the males are going back into oblivion....lol
Seriously,if it was me,I would not keep or mark the males,they would just be going back into any old pots or tubs......they would be unrecognizable from the rest.

That's exactly the problem. Someone gets a female, and whoever is unlucky enough to pick up the leftovers has an overwhelming probability of getting males.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I don't see how this is true at all.

Using the same logic, it's only a 50% chance that each individual T he sexes out is female. So, odds are he will have to go through 30 T's to find those 15 females.

Now Ken has a 15 sexed juvenile females and 15 sexed juvenile males.

The remaining 85 unsold T's should not all be sold as unsexed, as you say, because they are not all unsexed.

Then you run into the time constraint problem of sexing every single T. In a perfect world, every T would already be sexed. But for Ken, he has thousands of T's at any given time. I don't fault him for not being able to make the time to accurately sex every single one of them. In that case it is only fair that everyone who buys an unsexed sling has the same odds as everyone else.

Females get sexed (if you want to pay extra) and males are always "unsexed"...as slings anyway.
If you want a male or female,why not wait till they are SA and pay premium prices instead of wanting a good deal on them as female slings.
I really think if someone gets upset at having a male instead of a female,they have no part in this hobby.
They are all spiders.
How about we start doing the same with our kids ?

You say you're a changed man, but this is the third time I've seen you make a generalized statement about who "doesn't belong in the hobby". If you don't understand how you're being offensive and condescending, then I don't know what to say.

Comparing the desire to have female T's to having children is utterly ridiculous and really, it shouldn't even be worth my time to point out how absurd the comparison is.

The fact is, an unsexed sling should have a 50/50 shot of being either sex. If dealers are willing to sex T's out that are advertised as unsexed than the odds are no longer fair for everyone else. I have personally been taken advantage of in this situation. A disproportionate number of "unsexed" T's I have appear to be males. Is it a case of incredibly bad odds? Maybe. But I don't think so. I know for a fact that people do sell known males as unsexed. In those cases you are paying for that 50/50 female shot, when in reality you have a zero percent chance of receiving a female. Does that sound like an honest business practice? How many people do not buy unsexed juvies for this very reason? I know I no longer do, and I won't unless it's from someone I trust. Given Ken's posts in this thread (and from recommendations from other users) he is one of the only dealer's I would trust to send truly unsexed slings.

Really, there are only two ways to go about it. Either sex every single one of the T's and sell them as sexed. Or sex none of them so everyone receives an equal chance at getting their preferred sex.

 

[NateTheGreat]

Then you run into the time constraint problem of sexing every single T. In a perfect world, every T would already be sexed. But for Ken, he has thousands of T's at any given time. I don't fault him for not being able to make the time to accurately sex every single one of them. In that case it is only fair that everyone who buys an unsexed sling has the same odds as everyone else.

No you don't, that's the point, which you missed. And of course I'm not faulting Ken. But I am saying if ANY breeder happened to be offered extra money to take the time to sex out 15 females out of 100 juvies, then in the process he would also sex out 15 males. Its simple probability, theres a 50/50 chance on the sex. So when you sex a T its going to be male or female (obviously). So, probability says that if your sexing out 15 females in the process you will end up having to sex 30 total. The other 15 are males. Set those aside as sexed males. The remaining 70 unsexed T's hold on to the 50/50-male/female chance.

 

[ZergFront]

I agree as well! If you REALLY want a female... buy a confirmed adult female, or take your chances. I dno't see having males as a bad thing... you can loan them out or sell them when they mature, and then you have slings you can sell or trade for other Ts that you want.

Selling slings as 'unsexed' is the proper way to do it.

That is why I got 5 of one species. It really ups the chances for at least one. Don't think I'll be buying any avic slings ever again, though...Would really suck if all my 5 were male, but I guess if that ever did happen, I would trade 4 of them for other slings I like and do a 50/50 with the last one. I used to think getting a male spider of any kind would be bad, but I guess it does have its perks.

Would a male P.irminia be a fair trade for slings of P.pulcher or P.regalis? :?

I think what you said Ken was a great point of view and I think it's worth way more just being your $0.02. :clap:

 

[KenTheBugGuy]

the probelm

No you don't, that's the point, which you missed. And of course I'm not faulting Ken. But I am saying if ANY breeder happened to be offered extra money to take the time to sex out 15 females out of 100 juvies, then in the process he would also sex out 15 males. Its simple probability, theres a 50/50 chance on the sex. So when you sex a T its going to be male or female (obviously). So, probability says that if your sexing out 15 females in the process you will end up having to sex 30 total. The other 15 are males. Set those aside as sexed males. The remaining 70 unsexed T's hold on to the 50/50-male/female chance.

you are right if they did that but people don't. If they were honest then half thier slings would be sexed. The dishonest part is they don't pull those males and all of the sudden have a bunch of males for sale also. They just keep selling unsexed slings even though they have already sexed some out.

 

[KenTheBugGuy]

how many

Ok so how many people have bought a female that is 1 inch yet the person selling them has them as unsexed but you bought cause they said they would sell you a female. Now did you see them all of the sudden the next day go and post hey have 5 males? Never see that happen.

 

[NateTheGreat]

you are right if they did that but people don't. If they were honest then half thier slings would be sexed. The dishonest part is they don't pull those males and all of the sudden have a bunch of males for sale also. They just keep selling unsexed slings even though they have already sexed some out.

I understand and completely agree, but that is just a dishonest person being dishonest. You and others were basically condeming the act of sexing out females itself. I was just pointing out that not only can it be done fairly but the fairness would come naturally if the one doing it chose to be honest, thats all.

 

[KenTheBugGuy]

I understand and completely agree, but that is just a dishonest person being dishonest. You and others were basically condeming the act of sexing out females itself. I was just pointing out that not only can it be done fairly but the fairness would come naturally if the one doing it chose to be honest, thats all.

I apologize if thats how it came off it was not ment that way. I don't think there is anything wrong with sexing out your tarantulas if done in an honest way. I just don't usually see the people doing it posting that they have males of 1 to 2 inch also for sale.

 

[NateTheGreat]

I apologize if thats how it came off it was not ment that way. I don't think there is anything wrong with sexing out your tarantulas if done in an honest way. I just don't usually see the people doing it posting that they have males of 1 to 2 inch also for sale.

No need to apoligize. Thats just what I got out of the debate and wanted to chime in. I think it came across like that more from people other than you. I first posted when a few people seemed to really be trying to drive home that basic probability principles prove the act of sexing out females dishonest, so I just had to point out what I did. I don't disagree with you. And btw this was a real good thread.

 

[paul fleming]

Apologies for my comments earlier.......I was out of order.
This is a very good debate which needs to continue,without me.
Paul

 

[Nerri1029]

I apologize if thats how it came off it was not ment that way. I don't think there is anything wrong with sexing out your tarantulas if done in an honest way. I just don't usually see the people doing it posting that they have males of 1 to 2 inch also for sale.

* MY reason for not posting up 1-2" males *

I have a few of these. But I'm not sure I'd get any 'bites' with an advert about males so immature. Usually when people are looking for males it's matures they want. (IME)

But then I'm not a large dealer nor do I have a large collection. (~100)

I think people looking for breeding pairs (future breeding pairs) would be interested.

I have a handful of males ( juvenile ) but the thouht of posting them up for sale hasn't crossed my mind with any ferver.

 

[Mad Drunx]

I bought four P.Irminia sling's and three are now mature males within two week's of each other,and the fourth will molt soon hopefully female.I'm pretty sure that's a case of selling the female's out and leaving the males as unsexed.Ken I'm glad you are keeping it 50 50, I'll order from you next time and maybe I have male's and female's.