I've got Haitan eggs!

[phoenixxavierre]

Originally posted by Atrax
On the subject of predation, I'm in total agreement that a number of them are eaten, hence the number of offspring. My guess would be that anything small enough to actually reach a centipede in a deep burrow may not cause a significant enough disturbance to trigger the "egg eating defense". After all, we are talking about significant distubance here. In the case of a large predator unearthing a centipede, well, if the predator is successful, the pede, eggs or both may be eaten. If the predator is unsuccessful yet manages to really cause some havoc, (like detsroying the nest/burrow) my guess then would be that the mother pede would cease to brood and rather than abandon the eggs, would at least recycle what energy she could from the offspring by consuming them.

Good morning Atrax. Bear with me, I have coffee brewing, lol!

What's strange is that despite all those predators, centipedes thrive in Haiti, at least what I've read leads me to believe so. Most references to centipedes in Haiti state they are prolific, like scorps and ts. So either they don't get disturbed much, which I kind of doubt due to the number of predators there, or they have become accustomed to dealing with certain types of disturbances or predators (earthquakes and flooding amongst disturbances). I've observed non-Haitian pedes bite and push away feeder insects when they were unwanted, which then die in the enclosure, while brooding their eggs. I've noticed in scorps which begin to eat their brood, that if you disturb them, it kicks in the protection mechanism, and stops them from eating further. I wonder if unwanted visiting insects does the same in mother centipedes? The case of the S. subspinipes that ate the brood IME I had not disturbed much at all and had not introduced any feeder insects into the enclosure. The others I had and they didn't eat the brood. I've also seen pedes actually get up with their legs wrapped around their brood and move them when disturbed, so as to protect them, using their front and back legs to walk with and their middle legs to carry the eggs and/or baby pedes with. I still have a lot of questions about why a mother would eat a viable brood at a minor disturbance. I wonder if in the case of wild caughts, if it's due to the disturbance being unfamiliar, something they had never dealt with in the wild. Also if the pede is a larger mother pede, delivering a nasty bite may also dissuade the predator. I'm interested to find out more about broods carried by captive bred pedes and whether their reaction to stimuli would be different, seeing as they have become accustomed to the movements of their keeper.

What's your reference on what animals prey on Centipedes in Haiti? Sounds like some good information. I'm also curious as to what particular animals prey on what specific sp. of pede. Some of the animals listed would obviously not be capable of consuming a large Scolopendra. If these animals do prey on the sp. that achieve a greater size, chances are they are preying on the young which seems natural enough as far as the "have many offspring so a few survive" principle.

Atrax

Thanks. Mainly it's just from study of those particular animals. Some prey on those above ground, some prey on those below ground. Mainly it's due to the fact that they're insectivores, and most insectivores are willing to eat any invertebrate they can get their paws, beaks, mouths on, lol! There are some large lizards, birds, and others on the list that I mentioned that at first thought you may not consider to be large enough to prey on a pede, but they can. With the delivery of a careful and quick bite, placed in the right area, they can debilitate the pede, then eat it. While pedes are powerful, and some get large, they can be preyed upon easily enough. Luckily they have that nasty bite which if delivered at the right time, can save them! And as you've mentioned the smaller pedes can be taken easier than the large ones. But seeing as they're so prolific there in Haiti, there must be some secret to their reproducing in such great numbers, and perhaps they do experience less disturbances by burrowing? Would be interesting to go there and study it!

Take care,

Paul

 

[phoenixxavierre]

Originally posted by Atrax
I know that some pedes are much more tolerant than others. I have also photographed brooding pedes that carried their eggs full term with no problems. On average though, the stakes seem higher for a stressed mom pede to eat the broods, atleast from what I have observed, read and been told. If you look back at Becky's original post, you can see in her pic that the female Haitian pede chose to lay her eggs under the water dish. Lifting the dish or photographing may or may not have caused significant stress to trigger cannibalization.(still, why take a chance is the bottom line) Moving the mother/eggs however almost leaves no other conclusion.

This makes me wonder how one, aside from observing the mother eat her brood, could identify a "stressed" pede.

I agree that moving the mother along with her eggs would stress the mother. I wouldn't tamper with moving a mother pede until her brood was well developed, which I have done before.

I have no idea of whether or not studies on this theory have been done (I bet they haven't though) but with captive tarrantulas, some seem to acclimate in a manner where they create a burrow, tubeweb, etc. within an enclosure. Some actually habitate within the enclosure as if it were the burrow. I wonder if this idea may also be applied to centipedes and in turn relate to the whole "brood in the open/higher tolerance for disturbance, brood in seclusion/lower tolerance for disturbance".

That's an interesting theory!

I'm not offended and I hope anything I said in judgement was minor enough to have rolled off your back. (looks like that's the case)


Atrax

It's can sometimes be easy to misread intent when there is no vocal quality to pick up on. I think that perhaps that, along with any behind the scenes eggheads, contributed to you feeling I was challenging your beliefs/opinions. It wasn't my goal. My goal was to include my thoughts in the discussion, and open up related areas of discussion, as well as some "new" ideas on the topic for everyone to think about and consider (as is the case most times).

Best wishes,

Paul

 

[Henry Kane]

Have you ever seen the difference in a well acclimated pede and a maladjusted one?

Atrax

 

[phoenixxavierre]

Originally posted by Atrax
Have you ever seen the difference in a well acclimated pede and a maladjusted one?

Atrax

I don't know about maladjusted, but I have seen differences in wild caught and captive bred. I've also seen behaviors change with time in captive kept wild caughts. Here are some simple observations.

I've handled captive born Scolopendra subspinipes subspecies (Malaysians) that didn't bite. I think it was due to them being used to my movements. They "enjoyed" resting between my fingers or inbetween my knuckles. There were a few though (55 in the brood) that didn't care to be handled and would run and hang off my hand and drop to the floor to escape. But the majority of the captive borns behaved in a very docile, though curious, manner.

As far as wild caughts becoming acclimated, I have noticed pedes change in their "personalities" from shy to aggressive or from aggressive to shy over a period of months, acting one way for months and months and then becoming another way for months and months.

I've handled wild caught Trachycormocephalus species and was bitten. It wasn't all that concerned about me holding it and was very curious about investigating my hand, but it WAS hungry, and that was my mistake. I failed to feed it before I handled it. It had been fed before that, but wasn't "filled to capacity", lol! It decided I was worthy of a "taste." hehe! It got comfortable on my hand and decided to bite me on the area where my thumb knuckle is. It bit me where I had a "wart" type growth, some scar tissue (can't remember what it was from, I think a cut that later sort of turned into a wartlike scarred area). The area that was pronounced there actually diminished in size after the bite, as if it's bite "cured" the area of skin. Strange!

The "well-acclimated" pedes became use to my interference in their daily lives and didn't lash out every time attempting to bite. Others went from being shy and reclusive to coming out more and more and became more likely to attempt to bite if interfered with. So I think that (for these individuals) as they became more comfortable their "true colors" shined through, for better or worse. I personally feel that within a particular species, there is variation in behavioral responses, i.e., personality. But all this is just limited experience, a lot of guessing, and/or personal interpretation.

I used to stroke the Malaysian mother with a watercolor paint brush. She didn't really care for it while she was guarding her brood. She didn't seem to mind it too terribly much after her brood had dispersed. She actually seemed very curious and shy at times. I was very tempted to handle her but decided better of it. She was quite large! lol! Despite her not being all that aggressive in her behavior I didn't really want to deal with the pain of a bite at that time.

I know these are very general observations and very limited as well. I do feel that captive bred pedes are more likely to be handled without biting as long as they are well fed, not that I recommend it.

Not sure if that answered your question or not.

Paul

 

[Lasiodora]

This is a very interesting thread and everyone had a lot of info that I found interesting. I couldn't read the whole thread though. I have one thing to add. It may or may not pertain to this topic. Haiti is part of Hispanola, which is the Dominican Republic and Haiti combined. The Haitian centepede (even Phormictopus cancerides) is also found in the Dominican Republic in areas that are not disturbed like in Haiti. I just thought this would be something to think about when taking enviornmental disturbance as a factor in egg eating.
Mike

 

[phoenixxavierre]

The Dominican Republic is a little over twice the size of New Hampshire and is inhabited by over 8 million people. It consists of rugged mountains and fertile valleys between the highlands. It actually lies right in the middle of the hurricane belt and experiences severe storms from June to October, along with occasional flooding. There are also seasonal droughts.

Geckos and lizards are plentiful. Iguanas (including the Rhinoceros iguana), solenodons, rodents, sloths, birds, frogs, centipedes, scorpions, and of course other "bugs," like beetles, roaches, fleas, mosquitos, flies, etc. The Jaragua gecko is from the Dominican Republic, small enough to curl up on a dime. It's the smallest gecko known to humans. There are also, of course, spiders, mites, ants, tarantulas, snakes, etc. There are even areas that have crocodiles.

Just a little extra info on the Dominan Republic for everyone.

I am wondering, though, how there would be less disturbances in the Dominican as compared to Haiti?

Paul

 

[Steven]

@Atrax & Paul

this is waaaaay to much info to read on a quick surftrip.
i'll have to take a day of to read all the intresting things you both are sharing,.... pffffffff and i find it hard enough to read english as it is


keep them coming

greetz

 

[phoenixxavierre]

Thankyou, Steven!

It surprises me that you have difficulty reading English, your writing of it is so good!!

And you write much better English than I ever could Dutch!! (without a translator program, that is! and then that would probably be very bad!!)

Best wishes!

 

[Lasiodora]

Paul,
The newly described tiny gecko is Sphaerodactylus ariasae its actually found on on the remote island Beata (off the coast of DR), which is part of the Jaragua National Park in the Dominican Republic. A friend of mine was with the team of biologists who found it. In DR the climate varies. There are areas with very lush forests(with daily rainfall) and there are areas that are very dry. DR also contains the only salt water lake inhabited by american crocodiles (they can only be found here and no where else on the island). There are two species of iguanas found there. They are: Cyclura cornuta cornuta, Cyclura ricordi (this one is critically endangered and is only found in Jaragua National Park).
There are no sloths in the Dominican Republic! There are a couple of species of boas and colubrids. Don't forget that there are also a species of sliders.
The island also boasts the most diverse anolis species. There are also a few raptors, the introduced indian mongoose, and a host of other creatures unique to the island.
There are a lot of a areas with minimal disturbance on the island and there are some national parks which are undisturbed. I know this because I have been there and I know someone who does a lot of herp related field work. I also still have plenty of familly there. There are a lot of areas that are minimally inhabited or uninhabited altogether. Which means there are plenty of areas for the "Hatian" centepede to rear its brood undisturbed (which was initially the point of my post, but I strayed from it a little).
Hope that info gives you an idea of what DR's like.
MIke

 

[phoenixxavierre]

Mike,

Thanks for the info! I was aware of the details but it IS nice that you posted them! Your friend must have enjoyed his expedition quite a bit, aside from the sand fleas, flies and mosquitos!! lol!

You are correct on sloths in the Dominican Republic. My mistake. They did find the remains of them in caves there, and they did inhabit the area not awfully long ago. It would be awesome if they manage to find some of these hidden off in a cave somewhere as of yet unexplored! Unlikely but we can always hope!

As far as disturbances, I would consider yearly hurricanes during the rainy season along with flooding fairly disturbing. Was your friend there during hurricane season?

The area does vary geographically in that the valleys are lusher than the rocky highlands, and the mountains do get cooler than the valleys and shores. It does vary by SEASON though. There are seasonal droughts and seasonal rainfall. There are no areas that rain EVERY day, or even close. The rains come, in some places once a year, in other places twice a year, and the drought comes in areas there as well. There ARE areas that are drier than others, but no areas are dry during hurricane season. Haiti and the Dominican Republic are known for their annual and sometimes biannual hurricanes and flooding. Perhaps the centipedes during this time seek higher ground, as the land is interspersed with rocky mountains. If they can find a safe nook or cranny temporarily until the rains cease, good for them! If they can't I imagine they drown. Moisture is important to them, of course, but they're not very good swimmers! While the floods do not occur with every hurricane, they are frequent enough to merit mention during the rainy season, so I imagine the ground gets pretty soaked! With so few trees on the island left compared to what there used to be (not that these pedes are arboreal, but I imagine when the rains came in the past they would head any way they could to escape any flooding) that leaves some trees and more rocky niches and crannies for them to try and seek shelter in.

Here's an interesting article on deforestation in Haiti:

http://www.squidinkbooks.com/haiti.news.htm

Very sad what they've done to the forest there.

Did your friend happen to locate any centipedes while he was there?

Paul

 

[Lasiodora]

Hey Paul,
I never new that fossils of sloths were ever found there. You should see some of the fossil arachnid and insects that are found in the amber caves there. Yeah my friend had a great time. He is not a big fan of aracnids or insects. Whatever he did see he left alone. I have heard of plenty of stories from family and friends regarding centepedes in DR and finding them (they sounded like plots from an old horror movie: "attack of the killer giant centepede"). Just imagine if they saw one of those Peruvian giants. A lot of people there think that a bite from a centepede or tarantula is deadly. I of course had to set them straight, but this is pretty much the thinking in the Dominican Republic. So, its kill on sight. I managed to rescue some male Phormictopus that managed to get into our neighbors house when I was there though. They were amazed and horrified that I captured and relocated them (they found it strange that I was intentinalyy looking for inverts. The younger kids laughed at this). I have an uncle that was bit by a pede. His elbow blew up and he said it was one of the most painful experiences he'd ever had. Looking back on the experience it was comical to us both because it happened when he was a kid and it was his fault for a harassing the pede in the first place. I'm trying to set up a trip with him to go see the american crocs and try to find some new tarantulas (I know there are plenty of undescribed species waiting to be found). My budget hasn't allowed me to go this year though. About flooding, I'm pretty sure that not all areas recieve flooding during hurricane season. The area at the town I stayed in last year was on a higher elevation than most other places there. It would be pretty hard to flood with heavy rains when all the water could drain down towards the lower areas (not saying it couldn't happen, but according to the people I spoke to who live there, it hasn't). You are right about seasonal rains, but where I saw "Hatian" centepedes it is a lot wetter year round. This was in June of last year. It rained everyday for the two weeks I was there and it continued to do so after I left. I found the pede under a coverboard I laid out the night before (too bad the little sucker was more agile than me). I looked at the trees and saw one with air plants and moss. Two signs of an area being a lot more moist than other places. You seem to know enough about the island, so if you ever get a chance you should definitely head out there.
Here's a pic of where I was staying. It was taken from the roof of a house. You see the forest in the foreground and the forested mountains in the background. It stayed cool in the morning with rain and went up into the 80's in the afternoon.

 

[phoenixxavierre]

Hi Mike,

It's good you're teaching people that the creepy crawlies there aren't deadly!

Any idea how many different types of pedes are there? Have you seen pretty much the same type over there or many different kinds?

That would be AWESOME if you could get more species in from Haiti, unknown in the trade!

I'm going to get into import/export but the funds haven't allowed it yet. I'm hoping in a year or two to be set up for that, possibly sooner!

I'd like to get in unknown species before deforestation habitat destruction cause species to go extinct before ever being discovered, something that is happening all too often! It's estimated that there are a hundred species of arthropods, etc. that are going extinct from habitat destruction EVERY FREAKIN' DAY!! Not in Haiti alone of course, but all over the world!

The areas in the highlands experience rain during the hurrican season as well, but as you've noted the flood areas are in the valleys and lower regions, but I'm sure water rushes quite rapidly down those mountains! Would be quite a site to see I'm sure!! If I had the money I'd be traveling all over the world to find new species, and to see the incredible beauty of the earth, of course!

And when I said it didn't rain EVERY day anywhere, I meant ALL year long, lol! Just to qualify that statement.

June IS part of the hurrican season, and most places there have hurricanes once to twice a year. Some during our summer, and some have it come and go in March, then comes back during our summer, then comes back during our early winter. Crazy weather there!

Awesome pic! Got any more??

 

[Lasiodora]

Paul,
To be honest I don't know much about Haiti. Most of what I know is from people I know who have been there. I know a lot more about the Domincan Republic. A lot of the fauna in DR is also found in Haiti though (e.g. Phormictopus cancerides). They said that it is a very disturbing sight. Acres of land are bare from deforestation. The sad thing is that more people are crossing into the Dominican Republic and illegally cutting down trees there. It's becoming a real problem. Unfortunately I only saw that one centepede while I was in the Dominican Republic. The coverboards I put out yielded more Phormictopus spiderlings than anything else. I didn't expect to find any inverts under the boards (I put them out for snakes), but they were great finds. I tried looking for inverts at night but I had no bug repellent and after 2 hours of battling mosquitos I called it a night. I found a different species of tarantula there that I had never seen. I'm sure it wasn't P.cancerides, but the pics did not devlop right .
Here's a pic of an introduced species (indian mongoose) which I saw foraging every morning:

 

[phoenixxavierre]

Mike,

It's sad that they're destroying so much forest. There are other resources that could be used for a lot of what they use wood for, but that's a whole other issue.

Cool picture!

Hopefully that other species of tarantula can be brought in for captive breeding in the hobby one day!

That would be awesome!

What did it look like?

 

[Cooper]

I cant make out the mongoose in that picture, can anyone point some features that would distinguish head from tail please?

 

[Lasiodora]

He is standing straight looking towards the camera. The head is at the top and the tail is at the bottom. The pic was taken from at least 25'. He ran off as I got closer.

 

[Cooper]

hmmmm, I still cant see it, is it that brown blob in the middle?

 

[phoenixxavierre]

The shadow is coming off of the head. You can see the eye on the right side of the head if you look closely, unless I'm looking at it wrong.

Did you use a zoom lens for that shot, Mike? It looks closer than 25 feet to me!

 

[Henry Kane]

Hope you don't mind that I copied your pic Lasiodora. I wanted to break it down for 'em. lol!

The head is circled in red, the body in blue and the tail in green. He's perched on a peice if wood that is protruding (toward the viewer) from the foliage. Hope that helps.

Atrax

 

[phoenixxavierre]

Doh!! I thought the piece of wood was the mongoose head, hehe! At first I thought it was a tree stump, and then I saw what looked like a thick head and eye, and at the bottom what looked like a tail, so I thought it was an odd looking mongoose! Sort of reminds me of a weasel! Must have been awesome to see it in the wild!

Thanks, Atrax!

Paul