I've got Haitan eggs!

[Henry Kane]

Hi Paul,
Well, for one, it's just common knowledge. Read a few pede books or do some research on-line. Ask any expert, etc. etc. It's a known fact that disturbing momma pedes (much like some tarantulas) runs a high risk of an eaten brood.

As to whether or not the eggs were fertile, it's quite a high probability that the eggs were fertile coming from a w/c female pede. There are more than numerous reported cases of w/c females brooding viable eggs. I have never read anything about inviable eggs being common or being eaten etc.etc.. No studies or reports I have read support that theory.

There are a few successfull breeders out there and the frequency of viable eaten broods due to disturbance is just as high as it is among amature hobbyists.

I am 100% confident that mold has NEVER been an issue here. My enclosures NEVER get mold whatsoever. I maintain them very well and have a very good mold-preventative system.
Second, I have witnessed brooding pedes maintaining and grooming the eggs which keeps them mold free regardless.

Misting wouldn't contribute to eggs going bad. Lack of moisture would. Misting will however, sometimes quite dramatically, stress a centipede. Mist a centipede sometime, you'll see exactly what I mean. Even with non-gravid pedes, it's recommended that you do not directly mist your centi's. I have also been told by experienced breeders exactly how to provide proper humidity levels for gravid/brooding pedes.

I know the eating of the eggs is caused by disturbance because as I said above already, they are eaten immediately after a moderate disturbance. i.e., not being careful to gently remove a lid, bumping the enclosure, lifting a hide without knowing there were eggs with the mom, recklessly misting etc. etc.
I also take the facts that experts have recorded and published pretty much as fact. Like I also said, it's common knowledge. There are people who have dedicated half my lifetime or more to observe and report these things. I see no need to question their knowledge or experience, or the obvious (as in what I have seen in my own experiance) for that matter. Especially what I have personally witnessed to coincide with what HAS been reported, with my own eyes on several occasions.

Also, you may have read my theory in this thread about why it all works that way. It's not any profound, breakthrough information, just a simple theory. I was wondering if you have any theory, based on experiance of course, as to why you may doubt what has been common knowledge in this hobby?

Atrax

 

[Henry Kane]

Originally posted by phoenixxavierre
How many times did you actually witness the centipede eating the eggs immediately upon disturbance?

I already answered that but I'll be more specific. I have had on 4 occasions, each with a different sp., female pedes eat their broods within hours after being disturbed in one manner or anohter mentioned in my last post.

Atrax

 

[phoenixxavierre]

Originally posted by Atrax
Hi Paul,
Well, for one, it's just common knowledge. Read a few pede books or do some research on-line. Ask any expert, etc. etc. It's a known fact that disturbing momma pedes (much like some tarantulas) runs a high risk of an eaten brood.

Hi Atrax,

As you know, I don't believe everything I read. I don't take common knowledge at face value. I have a tendency to question everything I read, even scientific literature. That being said, I'm also no expert, nor do I consider anyone else. Experienced, perhaps, but I learned from a very great man, Dr. Fred Wu, that calling oneself an expert, master, etc. is just an ego filler. I also don't buy into the theory that tarantula mammas eat their eggs out of disturbances either. Until I read AND experience it myself, I won't buy it. Call me stubborn, that's just me.

As to whether or not the eggs were fertile, it's quite a high probability that the eggs were fertile coming from a w/c female pede. There are more than numerous reported cases of w/c females brooding viable eggs. I have never read anything about inviable eggs being common or being eaten etc.etc.. No studies or reports I have read support that theory.

Tarantulas create dud eggs, why wouldn't the possibility exist for centipede to produce dud eggs?

There are a few successfull breeders out there and the frequency of viable eaten broods due to disturbance is just as high as it is among amature hobbyists.

I would like to know how a viable egg can be diffentiated from an unviable egg. I would also like to know how environmental causes can be so easily ruled out, aside from disturbances.

I am 100% confident that mold has NEVER been an issue here. My enclosures NEVER get mold whatsoever. I maintain them very well and have a very good mold-preventative system.
Second, I have witnessed brooding pedes maintaining and grooming the eggs which keeps them mold free regardless.

I have seen mold get on eggs of various inverts without even touching the rest of the container. What I am referring to is what you do NOT see. If the eggs get eaten while out of your view, and you don't witness the occurrence how can you say 100% NO mold?

Misting wouldn't contribute to eggs going bad. Lack of moisture would. Misting will however, sometimes quite dramatically, stress a centipede. Mist a centipede sometime, you'll see exactly what I mean. Even with non-gravid pedes, it's recommended that you do not directly mist your centi's. I have also been told by experienced breeders exactly how to provide proper humidity levels for gravid/brooding pedes.

How do you know that? About misting not contributing to eggs going bad? It would seem to me that the water wild caught pedes are used to is would be way different than the water from their native environment in the form of rain. The chemical makeup is more than likely very different. That was my point. Not misting in and of itself. The content of the water. I've never misted my pedes, so it's not an issue for me. But if eggs were misted with a type of water which is different than what it would be in the wild, chemically speaking, wouldn't that possibly have some effect on egg development? Couldn't the pede drinking water that is chemically different than what it has done for generations upon generations in the wild have some effect on its physiology and thus the physiology of it's eggs and/or offspring? I think that those are qualified variables to consider, don't you?

I know the eating of the eggs is caused by disturbance because as I said above already, they are eaten immediately after a moderate disturbance. i.e., not being careful to gently remove a lid, bumping the enclosure, lifting a hide without knowing there were eggs with the mom, recklessly misting etc. etc.
I also take the facts that experts have recorded and published pretty much as fact. Like I also said, it's common knowledge. There are people who have dedicated half my lifetime or more to observe and report these things. I see no need to question their knowledge or experience, or the obvious (as in what I have seen in my own experiance) for that matter. Especially what I have personally witnessed to coincide with what HAS been reported, with my own eyes on several occasions.

That is the difference then between you and I. I am a doubting Thomas. I prefer to see things with my OWN eyes. Sure, the "experts" can provide valuable and useful information, but that doesn't mean it shouldn't be questioned. That is what science IS all about, right? Questioning. Repeating. Coming to a proven theory. Then along comes someone else who questions that theory. Retests it, etc. etc. Nothing wrong with me questioning, is there?

Also, you may have read my theory in this thread about why it all works that way. It's not any profound, breakthrough information, just a simple theory. I was wondering if you have any theory, based on experiance of course, as to why you may doubt what has been common knowledge in this hobby?

Atrax

My doubt stems from knowledge of people, and knowledge of the scientific theory and it's flaws. I think it's wonderful that people have dedicated their lives to study of these incredible animals. My hat is clear off to them. Their information can be ground breaking. It can also be close but not quite on the mark. Until it is questioned, repeatedly, tested, taking into consideration ALL variables, I won't be convinced. I personally believe there are reasons behind everything. I also believe that it is an animals tendency to protect it's young, not devour them in the guise of protection. Just like rats and mice, hamsters, rodents I guess in general. They are known to devour their young. Many felt for a LONG time that it was to protect them. Then they discovered it was due to a lack of a particular chemical in their diet. Iodine is it? I forget. But at any rate, they don't devour their young to "protect" them, or by accident. They do it because they need something inside them that is inside their young. This need overrides their need to protect and preserve their young, the need to preserve themselves.

I'm not trying to argue with your here or discount what you're saying. I'm just trying to add to it. So, just some thoughts.

Best wishes,

Paul

 

[phoenixxavierre]

Originally posted by Atrax
I already answered that but I'll be more specific. I have had on 4 occasions, each with a different sp., female pedes eat their broods within hours after being disturbed in one manner or anohter mentioned in my last post.

Atrax

Hey Atrax,

What I would like to see is notes on development, such as exactly how many days after birth this occurred with each species. What types of food were provided during the mother caring for the eggs. What type of water was used, it's chemical makeup. Any other relevant factors like access to sunlight, temps, humidity levels, etc. etc. Detailed information. That's what we need. SOME observation is better than none, and I'm happy to read your posts and am interested in your opinions. I'm not saying you're wrong. I'm saying that I have questions, and want to know more details. I'm sure everyone else would like that as well. At least, I hope I'm not the only one...

Best wishes,

Paul

 

[Henry Kane]

Originally posted by phoenixxavierre
Hey Atrax,

What I would like to see is notes on development, such as exactly how many days after birth this occurred with each species.

It never occurred days after, it was always within hours after a disturbance. I periodically checked on them in hopes they wouldn't be eaten.

Ok, nothing wrong with giving details or asking for them. Nothing wrong with questioning. Here's the thing, Between my wife and 2 kids, my fulltime day job, my 4 nights a week dedicated to a professional band and 100 exotic pets, I must rely on a lot of what I read, sort what is credible and compare it to what I observe and derive my own ideas of what is what and why is why.

I will give some of this info later tonight (I'm out the door in a sec) but you can believe what you wish and I don't really like to be challenged to have to prove anything to you...besides, it's just going to bring up more questions...

If you're really that curious, wouldn't it be more fullfilling for you to keep a bunch of pedes for a while and answer all these Q's yourself?

Atrax

 

[phoenixxavierre]

Originally posted by Atrax
It never occurred days after, it was always within hours after a disturbance. I periodically checked on them in hopes they wouldn't be eaten.

Yes, I understood that.

Ok, nothing wrong with giving details or asking for them. Nothing wrong with questioning. Here's the thing, Between my wife and 2 kids, my fulltime day job, my 4 nights a week dedicated to a professional band and 100 exotic pets, I must rely on a lot of what I read, sort what is credible and compare it to what I observe and derive my own ideas of what is what and why is why.

Totally understandable. I know exactly what you mean. It's very difficult to dedicate such time to such great detail as the kind of questions that cross my mind. I'm not saying YOU persay do it, but rather those that are researching centipedes in particular AND that have the time to look into such things. I think it would make for some interesting research material.

I will give some of this info later tonight (I'm out the door in a sec) but you can believe what you wish and I don't really like to be challenged to have to prove anything to you...besides, it's just going to bring up more questions...

I wasn't challenging you to prove anything. Questioning isn't challenging. And questions are a good thing, right?

If you're really that curious, wouldn't it be more fullfilling for you to keep a bunch of pedes for a while and answer all these Q's yourself?

Atrax

I do keep a bunch of pedes, but like you, I have other things that take up my time as well.

Best wishes,

Paul

 

[Henry Kane]

Originally posted by phoenixxavierre
I do keep a bunch of pedes, but like you, I have other things that take up my time as well.

Best wishes,

Paul

Ok Paul, it's like this...

I have already said this but here goes again. My conclusions are based on what experts have been gracious enough to pass on and what I have experienced myself. There is no swaying me from my own personal conclusions. I'm aware of the fact that certain variables will surface despite my own observations and when that happens, I will weigh that data in with the rest of it.

If you really want the details as to why momma pedes eat their eggs after a disturbance, ask Carl Sandefer or Rowland Shelley. I don't understand why it's so difficult to just swallow. I see no underlying conspiracy in that information. It's fact. My observations and the observations of people whom I trust have adequately proven this. You need further proof? You do the studies. If I'm going to spend the time unraveling what we know, I'm going to publish my info and charge a shiny penny for it too.
I already stated I am very busy, you say you are busy too. I wonder what makes you think I may sacrifice any more of my time just to prove myself and my information to you. If you feel I'm incorrect, that's kind of your responsibility to disprove it, don't you think?

My purpose here was to help Petitegreeneyes with her situation. The basis of my information is valid enough that I can do so with confidence. Are you suggesting that my information is not to be trusted? If so, then how about some detailed notes from you? Not theories, not possible variables (like the type of water I use compared to the water in their native habitat etc.. ) but some sort of specifics as to what you have done differently and what your observations have shown. I have already provided this information (specific details, not theories). I do not feel the need to delve any further into it. Momma pedes eat the eggs when disturbed, case closed. If you feel otherwise then go ahead and share, even publish the info. since you will be onto something that contradicts what experts have already written.

Expert, by definition, does not mean they have learned all there is to possibly be known on a subject. It means they have enough knowledge of a particular subject to be considered an authority or at least trusted with said information.

Atrax

 

[phoenixxavierre]

Atrax,

Like I said, I'm a doubting Thomas and don't swallow something just because someone said it is. That's just how I am.

And what does conspiracy have to do with this?

I never asked you to sacrifice any of your own time. I merely brought up some possible variables that could effect the behavior of a centipede.

If I made you feel as if you have something to prove, you've misread my intent. But then that's nothing new.

Can you please refer me to the studies that have been done on this particular behavioral phenomenon?

You can roll your eyes if you like regarding water content. That just tells me you aren't aware of the level of pollution in some of our country's water supply. Also, water content was not the only possible variable which I presented.

Sorry you took my questioning in an offensive way.

My goal was to offer Petitgreeneyes the possibility that while perhaps her mother centipede should not be disturbed, that the possibility exists that it may not have been her disturbance that caused the devouring of the mother centipedes eggs. That other possibilities do exist. Nowhere did I say that you were incorrect.

As to your other questions and suggestions, I addressed those in the previous post.

Another thought that comes to mind is that in the wild, wouldn't a centipede be assaulted by more disturbances than they woud be in a captive environment? More predators, other insects seeking to eat their eggs, thunderstorms and flooding of the burrow, and the list goes on? Yet they manage to reproduce and develop just fine in the wild. Perhaps those disturbances are more familiar to them and of a different nature, but surely they are greater in quantity as well.


Best wishes,

Paul

 

[phoenixxavierre]

Oh, and Atrax, last I knew this was a myriopod discussion forum. Are you suggesting that my ideas are any less worthy of discussion than the "experts" or yours? I hope not. Wouldn't that would sort of nip discussion in the bud?

Best wishes,

Paul

 

[Henry Kane]

Originally posted by phoenixxavierre
Atrax,

Like I said, I'm a doubting Thomas and don't swallow something just because someone said it is. That's just how I am.

And what does conspiracy have to do with this?

Well, what other reason would any expert have to steer us wrong with inacuracies?

Originally posted by phoenixxavierre
I never asked you to sacrifice any of your own time. I merely brought up some possible variables that could effect the behavior of a centipede.

If I made you feel as if you have something to prove, you've misread my intent. But then that's nothing new.

You requested I provide detailed notes etc etc. That requires more of my time than I can afford at the moment..at least more than I feel is justified by this cause. I'm content with my own conclusions, no need to waste any more time on it.
I have nothing to prove. You seem to need further proof of what is common knowledge. I will not handle your end of that responsibility.

Originally posted by phoenixxavierre
Can you please refer me to the studies that have been done on this particular behavioral phenomenon?

There are only a few experts who have actually published in depth information on Scolopendra. I found this material quite easily, I'm sure you can too with even less effort than this thread is demanding. I will mention that I have coresponded with Carl Sandefer, Rowland Shelley and several amateur breeders who have more credibility on the subject than you and I put together. And yes, I have specifically addressed this topic.

Originally posted by phoenixxavierre
You can roll your eyes if you like regarding water content. That just tells me you aren't aware of the level of pollution in some of our country's water supply. Also, water content was not the only possible variable which I presented.

I didn't roll my eyes, the little yellow guy on your screen did. lol
I am aware of the variables in regards to water pollution, mineral content, and so on. I just don't believe it's that complex to have an impact big enough to actually provide recordable data. And if it were, it has already been studied and conclusions have been decided on. What knowledge is passed on and on is still the same on this topic.

Originally posted by phoenixxavierre
My goal was to offer Petitgreeneyes the possibility that while perhaps her mother centipede should not be disturbed, that the possibility exists that it may not have been her disturbance that caused the devouring of the mother centipedes eggs. That other possibilities do exist. Nowhere did I say that you were incorrect.

Ok, that's where I feel you are turning a very simple scenario into "rocket science". All highest probability dictates that it was the disturbance that caused this. Now, I am quite sure Becky (like all of us) is aware that other variables might exist. I never said this is the only reason mom pedes do this. There is still a "most likely" to the subject. There is still one variable of highest probability...the disturbance.

Originally posted by phoenixxavierre
Another thought that comes to mind is that in the wild, wouldn't a centipede be assaulted by more disturbances than they woud be in a captive environment? More predators, other insects seeking to eat their eggs, thunderstorms and flooding of the burrow, and the list goes on? Yet they manage to reproduce and develop just fine in the wild. Perhaps those disturbances are more familiar to them and of a different nature, but surely they are greater in quantity as well.

I believe that a certain number of pedes cannibalize their brood in the wild, just as they would in captivity. However, if you have ever collected centipedes you would note first off where these animals habitate. I recently collected S. viridis and each one we found was very securely hidden and quite safe from any disturbance, other than from us of course. In fact some of the rocks they were found under took 2 people to lift. Also, Tom (MrInternet) recently went on a collecting trip and discovered S. heros ssp. as deep as 2' underground. I'm am sure a percentage of momma pedes choose a bad spot and either eat their own brood or are predated on. There has to be a mortality rate. I'm sure there are cases of eaten eggs in the wild just as there are in captivity.


Atrax

 

[phoenixxavierre]

Originally posted by Atrax
Well, what other reason would any expert have to steer us wrong with inacuracies?

You speak as if I am suggesting the "expert"/"experts" actively seek to steer "us" wrong with inaccuracies. What motive would they have?

What I am proposing is that are variables that were perhaps not taken into account in a particular study. That is a distinct possibility.




You requested I provide detailed notes etc etc. That requires more of my time than I can afford at the moment..at least more than I feel is justified by this cause. I'm content with my own conclusions, no need to waste any more time on it.
I have nothing to prove. You seem to need further proof of what is common knowledge. I will not handle your end of that responsibility.

The detailed notes aren't there because you didn't take them. If you feel detailed information is not worthy of notation due to things that are more important to you in your life at the present, that is fine. I understand that. It is the same with my particular situation. Not all of us have the time to take such detailed notes and spend a great amount of time doing specific observations for specific reasons within controlled environments. But don't confuse assumptions with facts when it comes to your particular experiences. Your opinion/assumption is one thing, and fact is another. It was once "common knowledge" that the earth was flat, and that the sun revolved around the earth. It was even thought of by the majority as fact. However, we now know better. As time passes we learn more, but with every answered question come more questions. I'm sure it's not me exclusively that would be interested in learning about other possible factors involving the eating of eggs by a tending mother centipede. I'm sorry you see this type of information as a waste of time.



There are only a few experts who have actually published in depth information on Scolopendra. I found this material quite easily, I'm sure you can too with even less effort than this thread is demanding. I will mention that I have coresponded with Carl Sandefer, Rowland Shelley and several amateur breeders who have more credibility on the subject than you and I put together. And yes, I have specifically addressed this topic.

This I am aware of.

It's just too bad that you don't share in the spirit of generosity involving information on these wonderful animals, if your goal is truly to help. I'm not real sure how to read this part of your post. Either you don't want to bother posting the reference material for all to gain from, you don't know what the reference material is specifically and have no copies of it, or you are going purely on conversations with Carl, Rowland and the several amateur breeders you mention.



I didn't roll my eyes, the little yellow guy on your screen did. lol

You mean the little yellow guy wasn't on your screen too?


I am aware of the variables in regards to water pollution, mineral content, and so on. I just don't believe it's that complex to have an impact big enough to actually provide recordable data. And if it were, it has already been studied and conclusions have been decided on. What knowledge is passed on and on is still the same on this topic.

So you don't believe that what an animal such as a centipede consumes has enough impact on health, breeding, gestation, egg development, etc. to warrant study or mention? You said yourself there has been very little study done regarding Scolopendra, yet here you assume that anything with a big enough impact on centipede egg development has been studied and conclusions have already been decided upon? That confuses me. Either there have been few studies or there have been plenty of studies. Which is it again?



Ok, that's where I feel you are turning a very simple scenario into "rocket science". All highest probability dictates that it was the disturbance that caused this. Now, I am quite sure Becky (like all of us) is aware that other variables might exist. I never said this is the only reason mom pedes do this. There is still a "most likely" to the subject. There is still one variable of highest probability...the disturbance.

I don't find anything simple about centipedes, especially when we know so little about them! I have always thought that the scientific method is the same for the most part in all the sciences, including behavioral science.

Is there something wrong with me noting that there might be other possibilities?




I believe that a certain number of pedes cannibalize their brood in the wild, just as they would in captivity. However, if you have ever collected centipedes you would note first off where these animals habitate. I recently collected S. viridis and each one we found was very securely hidden and quite safe from any disturbance, other than from us of course. In fact some of the rocks they were found under took 2 people to lift. Also, Tom (MrInternet) recently went on a collecting trip and discovered S. heros ssp. as deep as 2' underground. I'm am sure a percentage of momma pedes choose a bad spot and either eat their own brood or are predated on. There has to be a mortality rate. I'm sure there are cases of eaten eggs in the wild just as there are in captivity.


Atrax

I imagine that does happen from time to time.

Various species habitate in various types of environmental conditions.

How do you know these centipedes did not experience other disturbances at that depth? Are you aware of how many different types of animals live 2' underground and deeper? It doesn't necessarily need to be above ground for it to experience a disturbance or predation. And aren't S. heros, S. viridis and S. gigantea three different species of pede? I can understand you comparing the two. I don't understand the correlation though, seeing as they are from two different countries. Has anyone on the board or anyone that anyone knows ever collected Haitian centipedes in their country of origin? I'd be very interested in hearing about their habits in the wild.

I think perhaps, Atrax, you are resenting that I am bringing the possibility of ideas outside of your own, and/or that are outside of what you know from other people. There's no need for you to resent the ideas. They're just ideas.

Best wishes,

Paul

 

[Henry Kane]

I never said they do not experience any disturbances at that depth. Without getting too scientific though, it's easy to imagine it's not a common occurance. At least disturbances at that depth would be uncommon enough for the pedes to reproduce efficiently and sustain adequate numbers in the wild, no?

The point I am making in mentioning the S. heros or the S viridis is to illustrate that centipedes are pretty good at finding secure habitations. They are capable of fitting into cracks and crevices that a lot of predators (the few that they actually have) or even nuisances their size or even smaller couldn't accomodate. They didn't evolve like that for nothing. I have certainly observed them in areas that would be virtually free of disturbance. (man it's getting old saying that) Believe me, we actually surveyed that area quite thoroughly. We did not record the data on paper but we made (and discussed) many observations about each micro environment and what life was actually sustained in each of these. In this case however, the Scolopendra viridis are not as big as the Haitians and likely subject to a higher rate of predation but there's not much that could possibly disturb the viridis where these were found. I have never observed Haitians in the wild therefore I have no idea how they protect their brood out there. However based on what I have observed with w/c gravid pedes in captivity, it's a safe guess they are similarly inclined to find the safest place possible as well.

Speaking of momma pedes instincively finding the safest and most disturbance free spot to brood, check the pics in this thread...this is her...

http://www.arachnopets.com/arachnoboards/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7210&highlight=dehaani

You can't see it in the pic but the S. dehaani actually sealed both ends of the tube with substrate and really blocked them up good and solid I migh add. The currently brooding Hawaiian Scolo I have has done the same exact thing.

Each time a female pede of mine had eggs, it was done in the most secure place to be found in each enclosure. The Hawaiian Scolo I have now is brooding in exactly the same way as the dehaani. In the other half of the habitrail tube no less.

Atrax

 

[Henry Kane]

Back to the original topic, the pedes I have observed eating their eggs due to disturbance ranged among different species. I currently have a Scolopendra sp. (Hawaiian) that has been guarding a batch of eggs. I discovered the eggs approx. 14 days ago. Since then, they have gone from a pure (almost translucent) white to a cream color. I'm very much hoping they are fertile but the change in color seems to point in the direction that some developement is going on. I have been extremely careful in maintaining the enclosure. In fact I can say with confidence that the amount of vibration during any interaction has been entirely minimal to none. Of course this requires a LOT of patience. I really want these to hatch since this sp. is fairly uncommon in the hobby. I rotated my 3 pedes of this sp. twice in just about a year. Since then, 2 have passed on and this female is the only one I have left. I am carefully observing her and will definitely report any mishaps and all apparent variables.
I had a female a S. s. dehaani lay eggs not too long ago. She cared for the eggs just like she should have. In that case, there were actually many variables. The main one being that I was positive that this pede had molted more than once in my care. However, in light of John LaRiz's discovery with his gravid S. heros, I still do not rule out the possibility that they were viable but I'm not positive in that case. Regardless, they were scrupulously cared for by the mother until the day I decided to take some pictures. The next day, the eggs were gone. It has also been reported that centipedes are sensitive to sudden light changes. For instance, if a shadow were suddenly cast across a centipedes eyes, they often react and become defensive. On that note, it stands to reason that an intense flash, or sever flashes of light would certainly be a nuisance...and I should have known better.

In other occurances I have observed, it was the same. Certainly there were variables as in any case but the eggs were
always consumed after a significant disturbance. That in conjunction with what I have read and discussed with other hobbyists and experts is what leads me to the conclusion that disturbance triggered this behavior.


Atrax

 

[phoenixxavierre]

Originally posted by Atrax
I never said they do not experience any disturbances at that depth. Without getting too scientific though, it's easy to imagine it's not a common occurance. At least disturbances at that depth would be uncommon enough for the pedes to reproduce efficiently and sustain adequate numbers in the wild, no?

In Haiti, there are ground dwelling iguanas, agoutis, anoles and other lizards, ants, parasites (hookworm, roundworm, whipworm and others), frogs, pigs, solenodons, tarantulas, scorpions, spiders, other centipedes, rats, mice, and birds to name just a few that prey on centipedes. Many of these burrow and/or dig in order to locate prey. Many are simply existant in the soil at the depths you mention and lower. I would guess it's a pretty common occurrence for a centipede to need to protect it's eggs or to experience disturbances, even if underground. They're quite plentiful in Haiti though, so despite all the predators and disturbances they reproduce without much problem.

Haiti is about the size of the state of Maryland. It is 75% mountains and also 75% rural. In the rural areas people do what agriculture they can. Haiti is the poorest country in the western hemisphere. There are over 6 million in population. The climate is warm and semi-arid. Two rainy seasons occur there. From April through June and August through October. Rainfall varies from 100 inches in the north to 55 inches elsewhere. Nearly 10 years ago, Haiti had been depleted of it's natural forest cover, with less than 1 percent of it's ground covered with forest. It possesses one of the most severely depleted forest ecosystems on earth. Haiti also has rivers and streams (four large rivers), and some lakes (large and small), which the depth of varies with the seasons, sometimes raging and sometimes dry. The flooding is significant during the rainy seasons. The mountain valleys and gulfs are steep slopes mixed with some trees. The central and nothern areas do have some flat plains mixed in with the mountains. The central areas receive around half the rain compared to the rest of the area of Haiti. During late summer and fall there are serious hurricanes with major rainfall and destructive winds. The lowlands of Haiti are tropical areas with little variation between summer and winter. The mountains there actually experience frost during the winter (it's cooler in the mountains).

Centipedes in Haiti are often found amongst the potato plantations, as well as around rural dwellings, buildings, shelters, and I imagine they are found just about everywhere there from what I've read. They're considered a pest there. They're everywhere, along with ants, scorpions, and tarantulas. Just a little extra info on Haiti for you and anyone else who may find a use for it.

The point I am making in mentioning the S. heros or the S viridis is to illustrate that centipedes are pretty good at finding secure habitations. They are capable of fitting into cracks and crevices that a lot of predators (the few that they actually have) or even nuisances their size or even smaller couldn't accomodate. They didn't evolve like that for nothing. I have certainly observed them in areas that would be virtually free of disturbance. (man it's getting old saying that) Believe me, we actually surveyed that area quite thoroughly. We did not record the data on paper but we made (and discussed) many observations about each micro environment and what life was actually sustained in each of these. In this case however, the Scolopendra viridis are not as big as the Haitians and likely subject to a higher rate of predation but there's not much that could possibly disturb the viridis where these were found. I have never observed Haitians in the wild therefore I have no idea how they protect their brood out there. However based on what I have observed with w/c gravid pedes in captivity, it's a safe guess they are similarly inclined to find the safest place possible as well.

I agree that they attempt to find a safe place to brood. Every gravid centipede I've observed (a total of around a half dozen or so?) has taken great time to make their surrounding acceptable to them by clearing out a craterlike area and/or burrowing. I still believe though that they do experience disturbances in the wild, despite their depth of burrow. Ants get into any crevice and would be overjoyed to find some nice plump, juicy centipede eggs. Have you ever found multi-tunneled chambers in any of the burrows you've excavated? I've seen them build them in captivity and wonder if they do that in the wild. You would think they would have to create burrows with way more than one way in and out, seeing as ants can plug a burrow with sheer numbers pretty quickly. Another aspect is flooding. That's quite the disturbance as well. Earthquakes are not infrequent in Haiti either, another annoying disturbance.


You can't see it in the pic but the S. dehaani actually sealed both ends of the tube with substrate and really blocked them up good and solid I migh add. The currently brooding Hawaiian Scolo I have has done the same exact thing.

Cool! That would certainly block out all but deep digging predators (if the centipede were quite a ways down) and parasites. I'm not real sure if a parasite could enter a centipede unawares from the soil through the softer membranes or not. Wouldn't stop an insectivore that sniffs and digs though.

Each time a female pede of mine had eggs, it was done in the most secure place to be found in each enclosure. The Hawaiian Scolo I have now is brooding in exactly the same way as the dehaani. In the other half of the habitrail tube no less.

Atrax

Kewl! All of the pedes I've kept have done their broods above ground. isn't that odd! They've all had plenty of substrate to dig into and build a burrow but never have. I wonder why that is?

I totally understand the point you're making and agree with it to an extent. I imagine it's not the case with all pedes, but with some, yes. But then that's just my opinion from what I've seen and read, so it's based on limited experience.



Best wishes,

Paul

 

[phoenixxavierre]

HI Atrax,

Thankyou for posting more details. That's very helpful.

What is odd is that in other Scolopendra species (mainly subspinipes and subspinipes subspecies) I've had no problems with disturbances resulting in the brood being devoured. And what is odd is that the one S. subspinipes that did eat her brood, she was set aside somewhere dark for the majority of the time, unlike the others who were set in areas where there was a constant supply of light and sometimes even occasional sunlight (except for during the evening hours). I also checked on them frequently, took pictures with a flash, and even fed them, with no problems. So I naturally question why when it comes to something like this. Thanks for providing more of those details. I never intended for my questions to upset you. I'm naturally curious about anything I can glean from my own and others experiences!

Thanks again!

Best wishes,

Paul

 

[Henry Kane]

Originally posted by phoenixxavierre
In Haiti, there are ground dwelling iguanas, agoutis, anoles and other lizards, ants, parasites (hookworm, roundworm, whipworm and others), frogs, pigs, solenodons, tarantulas, scorpions, spiders, other centipedes, rats, mice, and birds to name just a few that prey on centipedes. Many of these burrow and/or dig in order to locate prey. Many are simply existant in the soil at the depths you mention and lower. I would guess it's a pretty common occurrence for a centipede to need to protect it's eggs or to experience disturbances, even if underground. They're quite plentiful in Haiti though, so despite all the predators and disturbances they reproduce without much problem.

On the subject of predation, I'm in total agreement that a number of them are eaten, hence the number of offspring. My guess would be that anything small enough to actually reach a centipede in a deep burrow may not cause a significant enough disturbance to trigger the "egg eating defense". After all, we are talking about significant distubance here. In the case of a large predator unearthing a centipede, well, if the predator is successful, the pede, eggs or both may be eaten. If the predator is unsuccessful yet manages to really cause some havoc, (like detsroying the nest/burrow) my guess then would be that the mother pede would cease to brood and rather than abandon the eggs, would at least recycle what energy she could from the offspring by consuming them.

What's your reference on what animals prey on Centipedes in Haiti? Sounds like some good information. I'm also curious as to what particular animals prey on what specific sp. of pede. Some of the animals listed would obviously not be capable of consuming a large Scolopendra. If these animals do prey on the sp. that achieve a greater size, chances are they are preying on the young which seems natural enough as far as the "have many offspring so a few survive" principle.

Atrax

 

[Henry Kane]

Originally posted by phoenixxavierre
HI Atrax,

Thankyou for posting more details. That's very helpful.

What is odd is that in other Scolopendra species (mainly subspinipes and subspinipes subspecies) I've had no problems with disturbances resulting in the brood being devoured. And what is odd is that the one S. subspinipes that did eat her brood, she was set aside somewhere dark for the majority of the time, unlike the others who were set in areas where there was a constant supply of light and sometimes even occasional sunlight (except for during the evening hours). I also checked on them frequently, took pictures with a flash, and even fed them, with no problems. So I naturally question why when it comes to something like this. Thanks for providing more of those details. I never intended for my questions to upset you. I'm naturally curious about anything I can glean from my own and others experiences!

Thanks again!

Best wishes,

Paul

I know that some pedes are much more tolerant than others. I have also photographed brooding pedes that carried their eggs full term with no problems. On average though, the stakes seem higher for a stressed mom pede to eat the broods, atleast from what I have observed, read and been told. If you look back at Becky's original post, you can see in her pic that the female Haitian pede chose to lay her eggs under the water dish. Lifting the dish or photographing may or may not have caused significant stress to trigger cannibalization.(still, why take a chance is the bottom line) Moving the mother/eggs however almost leaves no other conclusion.
I have no idea of whether or not studies on this theory have been done (I bet they haven't though) but with captive tarrantulas, some seem to acclimate in a manner where they create a burrow, tubeweb, etc. within an enclosure. Some actually habitate within the enclosure as if it were the burrow. I wonder if this idea may also be applied to centipedes and in turn relate to the whole "brood in the open/higher tolerance for disturbance, brood in seclusion/lower tolerance for disturbance".

I'm not offended and I hope anything I said in judgement was minor enough to have rolled off your back. (looks like that's the case)


Atrax

 

[petitegreeneyes]

Wow, I too, tend to go on what the experts say since they have time to study their field.

Thanks for your help Atrax
And I have another pede; Scolopendra species (Halloween pede) that has been hiding out for over two weeks and I haven't touched her cage or moved it or anything like that. Not to jinx myself but so far I haven't seen her and when I do I am hoping to see some plings with her since she was wild caught and as fat as a pig.

 

[petitegreeneyes]

P.S., normally this pede I was talking about in hiding now did come out all the time so that's what makes me believe she could be with eggs.

 

[Henry Kane]

Yep, sounds like either a mom to be or a perhaps a molt in progress. Either scenario is pretty exciting...of course baby Hallow-pedes would be pretty dang cool!

Best of luck and keep us posted.

Atrax