I need a bit of help

[viper69]

Look dude, whatever, thanks for your opinion, I appreciate your contributions to these discussions, but you rubbed me the wrong way. I asked a question to help myself with something so I don't need you telling me I'm irresponsible when I'm far from it. If you don't like the questioms I ask then don't Chime in. Keep your attitude to yourself if you just plan on insulting a fellow keepers competence. I DO NOT WELOME YOUR NEGATIVE ATTITUDE @viper69

You're welcome dude.

Second, if you are concerned about the type of answers you may get, don't ask questions. PM people. This is a "public" forum, where anyone can answer. You have every "right" to ask a question, just as every person here has a "right" to chime in.

Third, where was I negative or insulting?

Fourth, there was no attitude- it's hard to infer attitude from text written on a screen. I look at things pretty objectively here. I have nothing against you personally. The portion I wrote about being irresponsible is not something I have against you personally mind you. It is something most sensible hobbyists believe. If someone doesn't know the species, they have no business breeding it.

When you buy a product, be it a tarantula, or anything else, don't you want to know that what you are buying is in fact authentic? Do you want a Rolex watch or a Royex knock off ?

If some of my friends, such as @cold blood or @EulersK had doubts about the species of a T, I'd tell them the same thing I tell every person on this forum: it's irresponsible to do so. Trust me man, my response was not specific to you. Go search the forum if you are bored, and you'll find a number of Avic posts and others where I say the same thing. This post of yours isn't any different.

People who breed animals that don't know the species, are simply in it for the money, nothing more. Otherwise why would they be breeding those animals?

There is NO benefit to me buying a T or any other animal if I don't know the species. I have a few MM Avics I'm selling, do you think those people would buy them if I didn't know background of the animal? No they would not.

And even if I wasn't selling them, on principle no one wants a FrankenT if they are expecting a pure species.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

You're welcome dude.

Second, if you are concerned about the type of answers you may get, don't ask questions. PM people. This is a "public" forum, where anyone can answer. You have every "right" to ask a question, just as every person here has a "right" to chime in.

Third, where was I negative or insulting?

Fourth, there was no attitude- it's hard to infer attitude from text written on a screen. I look at things pretty objectively here. I have nothing against you personally. The portion I wrote about being irresponsible is not something I have against you personally mind you. It is something most sensible hobbyists believe. If someone doesn't know the species, they have no business breeding it.

When you buy a product, be it a tarantula, or anything else, don't you want to know that what you are buying is in fact authentic? Do you want a Rolex watch or a Royex knock off ?

If some of my friends, such as @cold blood or @EulersK had doubts about the species of a T, I'd tell them the same thing I tell every person on this forum: it's irresponsible to do so. Trust me man, my response was not specific to you. Go search the forum if you are bored, and you'll find a number of Avic posts and others where I say the same thing. This post of yours isn't any different.

People who breed animals that don't know the species, are simply in it for the money, nothing more. Otherwise why would they be breeding those animals?

There is NO benefit to me buying a T or any other animal if I don't know the species. I have a few MM Avics I'm selling, do you think those people would buy them if I didn't know background of the animal? No they would not.

And even if I wasn't selling them, on principle no one wants a FrankenT if they are expecting a pure species.

First thing first: you are a class A bully. Reason for this? You didn't mention me nor the Pope

I, like a F-Word + ing idiot, thought to be one of your (virtual but who cares) 'friend' as well. Me, and Papa (Pope) Ciccio, my mentor, in accordance as well.

Now I realize I'm nothing but a sad romantic fool and this is sad, especially if someone consider that I'm the only Italian active user here.

Now I feel like a poor Little Italy's N.Y immigrant of once, just arrived with the ferribotte (lol) in front of the 'statue', for bribe later Enrico Caruso just outside the kitchen of Knickerbocker Hotel, someone that had to deal 24/7 with Irish "I know nothing about Eye-talians" policemans, uh


uora uora arrivai u ferribotte

 

[viper69]

First thing first: you are a class A bully. Reason for this? You didn't mention me nor the Pope

I, like a F-Word + ing idiot, thought to be one of your (virtual but who cares) 'friend' as well. Me, and Papa (Pope) Ciccio, my mentor, in accordance as well.

Now I realize I'm nothing but a sad romantic fool and this is sad, especially if someone consider that I'm the only Italian active user here.

Now I feel like a poor Little Italy's N.Y immigrant of once, just arrived with the ferribotte (lol) in front of the 'statue', for bribe later Enrico Caruso just outside the kitchen of Knickerbocker Hotel, someone that had to deal 24/7 with Irish "I know nothing about Eye-talians" policemans, uh


uora uora arrivai u ferribotte

Except I know you have the ear of the Papa! Why just yesterday the Vaticani put out a press release indicating the Papa owns Ts!

Mentioning the Papa, well wrath might come down upon me.......

 

[Chris LXXIX]

Ah ah ^

 

[Chris LXXIX]

Except I know you have the ear of the Papa! Mentioning the Papa, well wrath might come down upon me.......

Ah don't worry my man, I'm always of welcome in 'Amen Corner' (Vatican City, aka Holy See... <-- see, see what?) I have reserved a seat for you when the war will start: lots of fun in full Christian curved 4K screen

 

[Willuminati]

You're welcome dude.

Second, if you are concerned about the type of answers you may get, don't ask questions. PM people. This is a "public" forum, where anyone can answer. You have every "right" to ask a question, just as every person here has a "right" to chime in.

Third, where was I negative or insulting?

Fourth, there was no attitude- it's hard to infer attitude from text written on a screen. I look at things pretty objectively here. I have nothing against you personally. The portion I wrote about being irresponsible is not something I have against you personally mind you. It is something most sensible hobbyists believe. If someone doesn't know the species, they have no business breeding it.

When you buy a product, be it a tarantula, or anything else, don't you want to know that what you are buying is in fact authentic? Do you want a Rolex watch or a Royex knock off ?

If some of my friends, such as @cold blood or @EulersK had doubts about the species of a T, I'd tell them the same thing I tell every person on this forum: it's irresponsible to do so. Trust me man, my response was not specific to you. Go search the forum if you are bored, and you'll find a number of Avic posts and others where I say the same thing. This post of yours isn't any different.

People who breed animals that don't know the species, are simply in it for the money, nothing more. Otherwise why would they be breeding those animals?

There is NO benefit to me buying a T or any other animal if I don't know the species. I have a few MM Avics I'm selling, do you think those people would buy them if I didn't know background of the animal? No they would not.

And even if I wasn't selling them, on principle no one wants a FrankenT if they are expecting a pure species.

Not gonna quote or go searching for your proven point. I asked a question where you gave your input while insulting my responsibility and intelligence, I corrected your assumption with facts (I know the species and so did the person I got her from) at which point you still ASSUMED I was acting irresponsibly with my animals to creat ABOMINATIONS. If I'm trying to get an answer using my own version of the scientific method, simple, info based opinions are always welcome, but off subject judgmental statements about a persons characteristics don't help either party. Some people might bow down and tuck their tails between their legs, or just ignore someone talking down on them out of fear or simple lack of awareness to the insult being fired at them,but not me, I ain't some punk ass kid, and I am far from new to this hobby. If you don't have something helpful or useful to say towards a situation or given question, just keep your thoughts to yourself. Simple as that.

 

[Arachnophoric]

@Willuminati

I was given two of these as A. Avicularias, however I'm pretty sure that they are A. Metallicas. Any idea on the actual Sp. based on these pics?

Thanks guys!

View attachment 236332 View attachment 236333 View attachment 236334

This is how you started off this thread. Notice you said that you thought they were not Avic avic but A. metallica. Your story has changed a bit since then, though perhaps in your hurry to post, you merely recounted the situation differently. No big deal.

Those are not A. metallica. A. metallica do not have red setae on their abdomen as yours do. I've owned this species from sling to adult.

Yours are also lacking the fiber optic setae from what I can see. It's an extremely noticeable trait in quite a few Avics, In short, all the setae are white tipped, and the remainder appears dark blue.

In short you have a very nice, healthy looking Avics. You'll never be able to breed them as you don't know what species they are.

Just enjoy them!

This was @viper69 's very tame, informative response. I want to state now that while I've noticed he can sometimes come off a bit snippy or abrasive in his responses, that is certainly not one of those instances. He only began to call your responsibility into question when, after making everyone believe you were uncertain of the species of your avics, that you were going to go ahead and breed them.

Most, if not all of his replies to this public thread that you posted asking others for their opinion have been pretty informative, and I get the notion I'm not alone in feeling that way. Just saying, man. With as defensive as you're getting, it doesn't look very good on you.

 

[klawfran3]

@klawfran3 mind clearing this up a bit? Lol

I got them both about three or four years ago as sac mates from a vendor at the LANHM bug fair. They are *definitely* both Avic Avics. I should know since I bought them and raised them to adulthood. I am the original owner of the spiders and gifted them to Willuminati back in August of 2016.

Please guys, let's drop all the arguments and get back to the threads main purpose. I'm not getting involved in this ridiculous pigeon puffing and the mods are probably going to start dishing out their infractions left and right. It doesn't help the hobby to argue like this.

 

[Willuminati]

I got them both about three or four years ago as sac mates from a vendor at the LANHM bug fair. They are *definitely* both Avic Avics. I should know since I bought them and raised them to adulthood. I am the original owner of the spiders and gifted them to Willuminati back in August of 2016.

Please guys, let's drop all the arguments and get back to the threads main purpose. I'm not getting involved in this ridiculous pigeon puffing and the mods are probably going to start dishing out their infractions left and right. It doesn't help the hobby to argue like this.

Thanks dude, appreciate the input, I was only trying to disprove a work mates hard given opinions on the animals(My work mate knows literally nothing but swears he does thanks to petco, the way I formatted my question was to see if anyone would fall in line and agree with the guy...), never did I believe you were wrong or were unaware of their actual identity, like I said I was simply "debunking" his assumption and my paranoia with a simple question that was taken out of context by the assumptions and judgments of others...smh

 

[viper69]

I got them both about three or four years ago as sac mates from a vendor at the LANHM bug fair. They are *definitely* both Avic Avics. I should know since I bought them and raised them to adulthood. I am the original owner of the spiders and gifted them to Willuminati back in August of 2016.

Please guys, let's drop all the arguments and get back to the threads main purpose. I'm not getting involved in this ridiculous pigeon puffing and the mods are probably going to start dishing out their infractions left and right. It doesn't help the hobby to argue like this.

Now this makes a lot more sense. Nice to see you around @klawfran3

 

[Jeff23]

Thanks dude, appreciate the input, I was only trying to disprove a work mates hard given opinions on the animals(My work mate knows literally nothing but swears he does thanks to petco, the way I formatted my question was to see if anyone would fall in line and agree with the guy...), never did I believe you were wrong or were unaware of their actual identity, like I said I was simply "debunking" his assumption and my paranoia with a simple question that was taken out of context by the assumptions and judgments of others...smh

I actually like the way you worded the OP. Giving the full details that you obtained them from a trustworthy source would have likely netted wrong responses about not needing to question it rather than responses providing technical differences between the species. There is still confusion for me on differences between some of the Avicularia / Ybyrapora / Caribena species so I may do the same in the future. I have some juvenile Avic's that I bought from Jamie's as slings, but am still confused when I look at them versus pictures of other Avic's that I see posted in this forum.

One only needs to look at your profile activity to see that you are an active member of this forum and not a new person or controversial member with distorted views on breeding. Hopefully we don't scare off others from asking honest questions to learn.

 

[viper69]

Not gonna quote or go searching for your proven point. I asked a question where you gave your input while insulting my responsibility and intelligence, I corrected your assumption with facts (I know the species and so did the person I got her from) at which point you still ASSUMED I was acting irresponsibly with my animals to creat ABOMINATIONS. If I'm trying to get an answer using my own version of the scientific method, simple, info based opinions are always welcome, but off subject judgmental statements about a persons characteristics don't help either party. Some people might bow down and tuck their tails between their legs, or just ignore someone talking down on them out of fear or simple lack of awareness to the insult being fired at them,but not me, I ain't some punk ass kid, and I am far from new to this hobby. If you don't have something helpful or useful to say towards a situation or given question, just keep your thoughts to yourself. Simple as that.

I was never insulting you. I've always been under the impression you didn't know what species you had based on your post. I'm not sure if you understand that?

Now that's NOT the case here Klaw made it clear, thankfully.

However, if it was the case, I'd call anyone irresponsible that bred Ts if they didn't know what they were. That's not an insult, it's a fact. It's like if someone killed another person. They are a murderer, it's just a fact, not an insult.

As I said in a previous post to you, have fun breeding!

 

[viper69]

Giving the full details that you obtained them from a trustworthy source

This would have been very useful information. I've read more posts than I can count that start off with what he wrote, to paraphrase..."I was given X species...",

It's a bit like art, a tarantula's background has a lot more meaning when it reads "I was given these Ts by (insert some reliable dealer, Kelly Swift etc).." vs a statement that sounds like they dropped out of the sky hahah

 

[klawfran3]

Now this makes a lot more sense. Nice to see you around @klawfran3

Hey there dude, long time so see! Boy has the forum changed in the past few months, I might be popping in an out every now and then just to drop a little knowledge in but since I still don't have spiders anymore (although I am getting into beetles and ants) I won't have many new experiences compared to everyone else and just have my knowledge from the years I had them. Feels good to be back though.

 

[viper69]

Hey there dude, long time so see! Boy has the forum changed in the past few months, I might be popping in an out every now and then just to drop a little knowledge in but since I still don't have spiders anymore (although I am getting into beetles and ants) I won't have many new experiences compared to everyone else and just have my knowledge from the years I had them. Feels good to be back though.

Man, your knowledge is always welcome you know that. It's needed here. I had forgotten you switched to insects.

Man, are you keeping leaf-cutter ants?? They are the only animal in the world, other than man, that grows its own food. You have to get some of those!! USA has a native species in TX too.

 

[klawfran3]

Man, your knowledge is always welcome you know that. It's needed here. I had forgotten you switched to insects.

Man, are you keeping leaf-cutter ants?? They are the only animal in the world, other than man, that grows its own food. You have to get some of those!! USA has a native species in TX too.

Haha thank you, means a lot. I'll definitely be sure to try and pop in more often now. I do miss the spiders though and want to get back in some day but landlords don't like giant spiders in their tenants rooms . And yeah I ended up moving to Wyoming to get some degrees- double major in Wildlife management and bio, and after a PhD in entomology.

I wish I could keep the leafcutters! they're not native to Wyo and it's illegal to bring queens over state boarders, so maybe if I move back to SoCal I can but I actually found a pogonomyrmex queen and colony yesterday so I'm pumped for that. Hopefully they adjust well to captivity. You know that ants are also the only animals to farm other animals other than humans? They keep aphids and drink the honeydew they produce, and move them to new pastures or shelter them from rain, and protect them from attacking insects!

 

[viper69]

Haha thank you, means a lot. I'll definitely be sure to try and pop in more often now. I do miss the spiders though and want to get back in some day but landlords don't like giant spiders in their tenants rooms . And yeah I ended up moving to Wyoming to get some degrees- double major in Wildlife management and bio, and after a PhD in entomology.

I wish I could keep the leafcutters! they're not native to Wyo and it's illegal to bring queens over state boarders, so maybe if I move back to SoCal I can but I actually found a pogonomyrmex queen and colony yesterday so I'm pumped for that. Hopefully they adjust well to captivity. You know that ants are also the only animals to farm other animals other than humans? They keep aphids and drink the honeydew they produce, and move them to new pastures or shelter them from rain, and protect them from attacking insects!

Oh nice combination of degrees. A PhD in Ento.... going to end up working for the pesticide production companies or the government or academic research?

I hear it's gorgeous over there, take advantage of the nature there!

I don't know if Cal would allow leaf-cutters in. I know museums have colonies, but private use, not so sure...

I did know what they did w/aphids, but I didn't know they were the only animals to farm other animals, besides us!

I think ants are fascinating. I met E.O. Wilson once, the guy's a genius.

I'll tell you a cool fact he told me. I asked him once what was the strangest place he ever found a new species of ant. I really expected some odd jungle or harsh environment. NOPE. He told me "inside the pot of a plant in an office in Washington DC" !!!

 

[Jeff23]

This would have been very useful information. I've read more posts than I can count that start off with what he wrote, to paraphrase..."I was given X species...",

It's a bit like art, a tarantula's background has a lot more meaning when it reads "I was given these Ts by (insert some reliable dealer, Kelly Swift etc).." vs a statement that sounds like they dropped out of the sky hahah

In that case it would mean you are trying to be judgemental rather than answering the question being asked.

It doesn't matter who the source might be. I may one day buy from a legimate hobbyist that has little interest with online forums. In this case you will likely discredit them because you have never heard of them rather than answering the question.

From the oppostite angle, I bought a B smithi from Petco early in my start on this hobby. The answer to my question has nothing to do with whether breeding should be avoided. I already know that answer. I would simply be trying to put a correct species name on the T.

 

[viper69]

In that case it would mean you are trying to be judgemental rather than answering the question being asked.

It doesn't matter who the source might be. I may one day buy from a legimate hobbyist that has little interest with online forums. In this case you will likely discredit them because you have never heard of them rather than answering the question.

From the opposite angle, I bought a B smithi from Petco early in my start on this hobby. The answer to my question has nothing to do with whether breeding should be avoided. I already know that answer. I would simply be trying to put a correct species name on the T.

I answered the OPs question, providing info suggesting it was not A. metallica, thus I was answering the question that was asked without needing to know the source. If @klawfran3 posted the SAME post as the OP, I'd give the same answer I provided before, and ask him if he could take better images, ie different angles and lighting (which I almost asked the OP).

I've been in the exotic hobby for a very long time, MOST, in fact, I'd say 80% or more of the breeders I know are not on some forum. I know of even more breeders via friends, and trust their opinion, and I never heard of those breeders. Just because I don't know the breeder, doesn't mean that person isn't a good breeder haha. That's just crazy talk.

Source does matter to some degree, at least to me. It's not a black or white situation for me.

Who are you going to trust more to ID a T, esp an Avic.... Rick West, or some random guy you never heard of (and don't have the ability to learn who said person is). I choose Rick West in that scenario, you may not. You do what's best for you Jeff, and I do what's best for me. It isn't rocket science, some people have different methods.

 

[Jeff23]

I answered the OPs question, providing info suggesting it was not A. metallica, thus I was answering the question that was asked without needing to know the source. If @klawfran3 posted the SAME post as the OP, I'd give the same answer I provided before, and ask him if he could take better images, ie different angles and lighting (which I almost asked the OP).

I've been in the exotic hobby for a very long time, MOST, in fact, I'd say 80% or more of the breeders I know are not on some forum. I know of even more breeders via friends, and trust their opinion, and I never heard of those breeders. Just because I don't know the breeder, doesn't mean that person isn't a good breeder haha. That's just crazy talk.

Source does matter to some degree, at least to me. It's not a black or white situation for me.

Who are you going to trust more to ID a T, esp an Avic.... Rick West, or some random guy you never heard of (and don't have the ability to learn who said person is). I choose Rick West in that scenario, you may not. You do what's best for you Jeff, and I do what's best for me. It isn't rocket science, some people have different methods.

I have bought from numerous sources online in my short life of this hobby and I have never asked those I buy from who their source might be. I suspect the website businesses would not tell me anyway. If I met someone in my local area and I could see that they know what they are doing on husbandry and information, I would easily trust them more than online people whom I have never made a purchase. But that is highly unlikely with the size of the hobby here in the states. Keep in mind that most of us making these posts are not experienced with lots of contacts like you. I still don't know the huge majority of breeders or what they sell on this site. You obviously know a lot of people and I am not discounting that or your high knowledge on the hobby. I have found high value in your experience that you share on posts here. And to answer your example, if some guy owns quite a few of a species of tarantula that Rick West has not studied I would trust the other guy more than Rick West. And it doesn't matter because the truth is that only one Rick West exists. He doesn't work for any of the individuals whom I have bought from. A couple of the online retailers with five star ratings on this site were unable to give me anything beyond generic care techniques for the tarantulas that I bought from them which makes me believe they bought them elsewhere rather than breeding them. I will trust a breeder who shows me they have knowledge on the species I am wanting to buy over someone who is more known with lots of successful sales any day.

And I agree with you that you did not ask for the source in your original post. You also stated in your original post that "You'll never be able to breed them as you don't know what species they are." I could see me eventually asking something similar to what OP did if I am struggling to understand the differences. My source doesn't matter for the confusion that might exist in my own brain.