Hygrometer shows 99%

[Kirk]

Kirk, some animals don't adapt so well. For example, do you know what happens when you try to keep a salwater fish in a fresh water tank?

This is why I was careful to limit my statement to terrestrial organisms. I'm a marine biologist, so I'm very aware of severe limitations on organisms in an aquatic environment. We can all point to extrinsic constraints. I'm just saying a group like tarantulas might have fairly broad allowances when the constraints of natural habitats are lifted.

 

[Exo]

This is why I was careful to limit my statement to terrestrial organisms. I'm a marine biologist, so I'm very aware of severe limitations on organisms in an aquatic environment. We can all point to extrinsic constraints. I'm just saying a group like tarantulas might have fairly broad allowances when the constraints of natural habitats are lifted.

Ever see what happens to an Emporor scorpion that is kept in a setup meant for a desert scorp? It's not a T, but it's a terrestrial arachnid.

 

[Fran]

Yes we do.

No you dont. You actually have no clue.
(Unless you speak to your t's.)

You would need a pretty serious scientific experiment to come to that conclusion.

PS: You dont know how much longer, how much bigger,how different the tarantula behavior could have been with the propper conditions.

 

[JimM]

Ever see what happens to an Emporor scorpion that is kept in a setup meant for a desert scorp? It's not a T, but it's a terrestrial arachnid.

Kirk never implied that the range of tolerance was infinite for any given creature. Lets not get silly. We can go all day with these extreme, unreasonable examples.

Ever see what happens when an Australian monitor lizard is kept in a polar biotope?

 

[JimM]

No you dont. You actually have no clue.
(Unless you speak to your t's.)

You would need a pretty serious scientific experiment to come to that conclusion.

Empirical data is my friend.

 

[Fran]

Seriously Jim...Really...
wheres your data, where. "My t's are fine", thats your data.

Either we discuss this seriously or just lets get stupid, but one or the other Jim.

 

[JimM]

Fran, you are being utterly and completely inane.
You have no idea what chemical, enzyme or hormone reactions take place in your own body from one moment to the next under various conditions, or your dog or your cat for that matter. Because I don't have this kind of data for my tarantula at 20 different humidity and barometric pressure readings, then somehow 25 years of observations are useless?


Have fun with your silly hygrometer.

 

[Kirk]

Ever see what happens to an Emporor scorpion that is kept in a setup meant for a desert scorp? It's not a T, but it's a terrestrial arachnid.

I would have thought my simple diagram would have made it clear that organisms do have their limits. There's always an interplay between intrinsic and extrinsic parameters, but when we place an animal in a habitat of our making, we are assuming they do have a certain plasticity to their tolerances.

 

[Fran]

Fran, you are being utterly and completely inane.
You have no idea what chemical, enzyme or hormone reactions take place in your own body from one moment to the next under various conditions, or your dog or your cat for that matter. Because I don't have this kind of data for my tarantula at 20 different humidity and barometric pressure readings, then somehow 25 years of observations are useless?


Have fun with your silly hygrometer.

That would be great to know if we were talking about human beigns or dogs or cats. The silly one here is not my hygrometer Jim, Im just trying to make you understand that owining tarantulas for 25 years does not mean that you know what and how much affects them when in captivity conditions.
And for that matter, to state that owning a hygrometer is stupid is even more stupid. I dont know whats so hard to understand.

Thats all.

 

[JimM]

What Kirk said.

 

[Exo]

Kirk never implied that the range of tolerance was infinite for any given creature. Lets not get silly. We can go all day with these extreme, unreasonable examples.

How is it unreasonable? Emperor scorps have very strict humidity requirements since they come from the rainforest, so how do we know that humidity isn't just as important to rainforest Ts?

 

[JimM]

How is it unreasonable? Emperor scorps have very strict humidity requirements since they come from the rainforest, so how do we know that humidity isn't just as important to rainforest Ts?

First, I've seen emperor scorpions thrive in a wide range of conditions over the years.

Second, in answer to your query about T's, by simple observation and a modicum of common sense. Nobody is stating that humidity isn't important, what's being debated here is how important the exact parameters are. As Kirk has been so kind to illustrate, a vast majority of organisms can not only live, but thrive and reproduce within a wide range of environmental parameters. Because on a particular Wednesday a tarantula finds itself at 80% humidity in a burrow in Brazil, doesn't by extension mean that such conditions are mandatory, or even ideal. We've learned by observation over many years now the range at which tarantulas live and breed, and reproduction is one of the most telling factors.

I could draw endless analogies here from marine organisms that I've kept, fish, corals, etc, to reptiles and birds. We've learned from long experience that wild ocean temps are next to meaningless with regard to the captive husbandry of corals. Ocean temps might be 83 degrees, but they thrive at anything from 75 - 86. We know this because we've watched them live, grown and reproduce over the years. But there shouldn't be a need to draw examples from every damn genera. The point is that the difference between a stressed organism, and an organism that's thriving is obvious. If one wants to monitor humidity and maintain a 2% margin of error...well at least that person isn't harming the animals, but I won't sit her and tell you this person's husbandry is more advanced, or that the animals are better off.

 

[Kirk]

How is it unreasonable? Emperor scorps have very strict humidity requirements since they come from the rainforest, so how do we know that humidity isn't just as important to rainforest Ts?

It all depends on your goal(s) of keeping a particular organism under captive conditions. Is one only interested in providing sufficient conditions for long life? Sufficient conditions for successful breeding and rearing offspring? These are the sorts of considerations that make an understanding of tolerances relevant.

If high humidity is a physiological requirement of Emperor scorpions, then obviously this is an acknowledged limitation. But there might also be other parameters that are not so constrained, and thus it's not necessary to limit those parameters as under non-captive conditions.

 

[Exo]

First, I've seen emperor scorpions thrive in a wide range of conditions over the years.

Second, in answer to your query about T's, by simple observation and a modicum of common sense. Nobody is stating that humidity isn't important, what's being debated here is how important the exact parameters are. As Kirk has been so kind to illustrate, a vast majority of organisms can not only live, but thrive and reproduce within a wide range of environmental parameters. Because on a particular Wednesday a tarantula finds itself at 80% humidity in a burrow in Brazil, doesn't by extension mean that such conditions are mandatory, or even ideal. We've learned by observation over many years now the range at which tarantulas live and breed, and reproduction is one of the most telling factors.

I could draw endless analogies here from marine organisms that I've kept, fish, corals, etc, to reptiles and birds. We've learned from long experience that wild ocean temps are next to meaningless with regard to the captive husbandry of corals. Ocean temps might be 83 degrees, but they thrive at anything from 75 - 86. We know this because we've watched them live, grown and reproduce over the years. But there shouldn't be a need to draw examples from every damn genera. The point is that the difference between a stressed organism, and an organism that's thriving is obvious. If one wants to monitor humidity and maintain a 2% margin of error...well at least that person isn't harming the animals, but I won't sit her and tell you this person's husbandry is more advanced, or that the animals are better off.

Ok...I get what you are saying. I didn't mean to say that a 2% margin makes a difference, but my point is that using a hygrometer to make sure that the humidity doesn't stray too far off the mark isn't silly.

 

[Fran]

Because on a particular Wednesday a tarantula finds itself at 80% humidity in a burrow in Brazil, doesn't by extension mean that such conditions are mandatory, or even ideal. .

When almost every single day (in the wild) of a Brazilian tarantula is over 80F and 80% humidity , it does give you a good example of what conditions you need to provide in order to keep succesfully that tarantula in captivity.

Maybe I didnt explain myself correctly, or maybe I didnt say it about 40 times already...So ill say it once more. If you want to keep your t's colder and dryer, or hotter thats fine. They wont die instantly , but they wont do as well as with proper conditions. Since we cant speak to the tranatula,and we dont know which ones are those cinditions, its quite reasonable to think that the closest to "best conditions" are the conditions in their natural wildlife.

 

[Exo]

It all depends on your goal(s) of keeping a particular organism under captive conditions. Is one only interested in providing sufficient conditions for long life? Sufficient conditions for successful breeding and rearing offspring? These are the sorts of considerations that make an understanding of tolerances relevant.

If high humidity is a physiological requirement of Emperor scorpions, then obviously this is an acknowledged limitation. But there might also be other parameters that are not so constrained, and thus it's not necessary to limit those parameters as under non-captive conditions.

From what I've seen and heard, most Ts don't seem to have strict temperature requirements, but I personally feel that some rainforest Ts have trouble molting and that Mature males can become sterile at low humidity. This leads me to believe that these Ts haven't developed a resistance to dry conditions that their desert/grasslands counterparts have.

 

[Exo]

its quite reasonable to think that the closest to "best conditions" are the conditions in their natural wildlife.

This is because most animals evolve in direct response to their enviroment. If the conditions they are kept in are too far off the mark, they won't usually adapt fast enough to survive. Am I the only other one here that understands this concept?

 

[JimM]

When almost every single day (in the wild) of a Brazilian tarantula is over 80F and 80% humidity , it does give you a good example of what conditions you need to provide in order to keep succesfully that tarantula in captivity.

Maybe I didnt explain myself correctly, or maybe I didnt say it about 40 times already...So ill say it once more. If you want to keep your t's colder and dryer, or hotter thats fine. They wont die instantly , but they wont do as well as with proper conditions. Since we cant speak to the tranatula,and we dont know which ones are those cinditions, its quite reasonable to think that the closest to "best conditions" are the conditions in their natural wildlife.

See bolded word...that's where you're getting lost.

 

[JimM]

If the conditions they are kept in are too far off the mark, they won't usually adapt fast enough to survive. Am I the only other one here that understands this concept?

Nobody here has said anything different.

 

[Fran]

Nobody here has said anything different.

You should read the posts again.