How often can I handle my chilean rose hair?

[hassman789]

this is a VERY controversial topic i see. i have been scolded by people for asking questions like this lol! i feel it is "ok" if your tarantula is showing absolutly no signs of skittishness leave it alone. and even if it is being completly calm dont abuse priviledge of it being nice. and i wouldnt say more than once a week. i know its fun but for the tarantulas sake

 

[Xian]

your simply not worth response time. I've already explained myself here.
Good luck.

Sorry I'm not worth your time...
I was just trying to show you your numbers were off....

...The other fact is they have been around for some 450,000,000 million years and for the most part unchanged....

Oh yeah, the earth isn't even this old.....

Dear Xian,

I'm not sure where you went to school, but i beg to differ with you. The earth is somewhere around 4.5 billion years old.....

Thank you very much.

Buckwheat,
I know where I went to school at, and that is where they taught us that 450,000,000 million, is not 4.5 billion, 4,500 million is 4.5 billion....

 

[Draychen]

I hate to point something out.. easily found information: Read the Tarantula Keeper's guide. In fact, under handling, the writers ENCOURAGE the handling of all Ts you are comfortable and compitent with. In fact, it states further that they are extremely hardy creatures and will not easily stress unless handled incorrectly. It further states that most often the case of the many of the naysayers about handling are just too uncomfortable to do so. Not saying that's the case with everyone or even half the people. Handling Ts is also said to make them accustomed to it the more often you (properly) handle them. It also helps to create a better reputation for them, as they are often viewed in a negative light. I trust these writers, as they have had MANY years of expierence with thousands of Ts (A combined 75 years, I believe, and that was stated 12 years ago for the book's 2nd printing). It is also considered the most scientific up-to-date book on Ts, and among T keepers, it is called the T Bible. And with great reason. I would accept anything Stanley Schultz and Marguerite Schultz as the word of god when it comes to Ts.. So please, handling Ts is more a personal preference. If done properly, there is no reason to scream 'STRESS'! when research backs it rather than personal opnion. My 2 cents, backed by research. I don't mean this response to offend anyone, merely stating what is considered scientific fact.

PS: If you think handling a spider is stressful on it.. imagine what would happen in the wild with predators trying to attack them daily, and not having a controlled encloseure that keeps their temperatures right and a steady food source coming. If handling a T properly would stress it enough to servely effect it's health or kill it... then they would not last a hour in the wild. Stress would kill them.

 

[Mack&Cass]

Draychen does make a good point. In someone's picture thread it shows him mating H. macs on his hand. If the Ts were stressed out, I don't think they'd be doing the wild thing on him. Interesting, indeed.

Cass

 

[Singapore_Blue1]

Jumping on board

I have no choice but to put in my two cents on this subject again. Handling a T is beneficial for both the owner and the T. Some use the excuse of stress, well its funny I had a successful sac within three days of handling the mother. The T's do become accustomed to being handled and having the owner more hands on actually prevents bites in my opinion. I've handled all of my T's and had no bites in 15 years so I feel my experience backs up my opinion. I've handled T's such as H. lividum, P. regalis, P. metallica, Xenesthis sp. white, P. ultramarinus, P. nigricolor, H. maculata, M. balfouri just to name a few so its not like I'm messing with a Grammostola here. Anyone who says that you shouldn't handle your T's and has never handled one more than a few times really has no ground to make such comments on this subject. They are basing there opinions on science rather than personal experience. Sometimes science has its flaws and at times it overlooks things. A great example would be the discovery of an octopus using tools. Why is this a big deal, well its an invert folks thats why. Look it up online for those who didn't see that on the nightly news. Last I checked that takes a degree of intelligence to aquire such a skill. Prior to the video scientists said that an octopus had no mental ability to do such actions. There is more to these creatures than meets the eye like the octopus and the longer I keep T's the more I learn about them day after day.

 

[xhexdx]

I have no choice but to put in my two cents on this subject again. Handling a T is beneficial for both the owner and the T. Some use the excuse of stress, well its funny I had a successful sac within three days of handling the mother. The T's do become accustomed to being handled and having the owner more hands on actually prevents bites in my opinion. I've handled all of my T's and had no bites in 15 years so I feel my experience backs up my opinion. I've handled T's such as H. lividum, P. regalis, P. metallica, Xenesthis sp. white, P. ultramarinus, P. nigricolor, H. maculata, M. balfouri just to name a few so its not like I'm messing with a Grammostola here. Anyone who says that you shouldn't handle your T's and has never handled one more than a few times really has no ground to make such comments on this subject. They are basing there opinions on science rather than personal experience. Sometimes science has its flaws and at times it overlooks things. A great example would be the discovery of an octopus using tools. Why is this a big deal, well its an invert folks thats why. Look it up online for those who didn't see that on the nightly news. Last I checked that takes a degree of intelligence to aquire such a skill. Prior to the video scientists said that an octopus had no mental ability to do such actions. There is more to these creatures than meets the eye like the octopus and the longer I keep T's the more I learn about them day after day.

That's all fine and dandy, but the argument isn't always about whether it's stressful for the spider or not. Some argue that they would like limit their interaction with the spider as much as possible (trying to keep them as close to being in nature as can be, given the circumstances).

Yes, I know all about, "If you're trying to keep it as close to nature as you can, don't keep them to begin with." That's not my point. My point is, there is more to this argument than 'stress or no stress'.

 

[splangy]

Anyone who says that you shouldn't handle your T's and has never handled one more than a few times really has no ground to make such comments on this subject. They are basing there opinions on science rather than personal experience.

Really? is that where hundreds of years of developing the scientific method has brought us? to reject science and rely on personal experience? We might as well throw out quantum mechanics, general relativity and gravity, then! My personal experiences don't really match that science.

Sorry... i'm a huge science nerd, can't be talking bad about science. lol (nothing personal, please don't hate me!!!)

Asking how often you can handle a T is like asking how often you can drive drunk, and then expecting someone to come out and actually say it's ok to drive drunk, but no more than once a week for 20 minutes.... (ignore the legal aspects for the sake of argument)

Yeah, not all drunk driving experiences end badly. But... it's still not worth it.

It's sad that people are being attacked for saying that 0 is the appropriate amount of time to handle your T.

 

[NateTheGreat]

your simply not worth response time. I've already explained myself here.

Good luck.

Xian is right...

You said 450,000,000 million.

That equals 450,000,000,000,000. Four hundred and fifty trillion.

Do you think that the earth is older than the universe?

 

[Singapore_Blue1]

Read closely

OK, first saying that we should repudiate "proven" science such as gravity, quantum mechanics, and general relativity is a bit much don't you think?? To clear this up I said that science doesn't always see everything, sometimes there are areas that we "genuinely" have a limited knowledge. Second, comparing handling a tarantula to driving drunk a bit much too:?:? How many T's have you handled to make such a statement?? I've been handling every day for the past 15 years, you?? I doubt your data is sufficient to make such a consequential claim. Man I would have a heck of a streak if 15 years is all luck huh???You would think that with 15 years of handling aggressive T's I would have gotten tagged by now?Tell my P. metallica that.. Or maybe my H. lividum Also I am not attacking anyone for not handling their T's. If you are uncomfortable handling them you really shouldn't handle them. If you want to replicate nature then thats cool too. My question to you is how are you any different if you are saying don't handle your T when you don't or never have handled them? Thats like telling someone to invest in certain areas of the stock market when you haven't had any experience investing yourself. No offense your credibility is in question without personal experience.

 

[xhexdx]

With respect,

Saying "I handle spiders every day for 15 years" is only what you say. There's no proof.

Granted, anything anyone says on here is all speculation. But still...15 years of handling every day?

I'm only a few hours away. I'd be happy to drive down on a weekend so you can handle all these guys for me; I'll even bring my camera to capture the moment.

 

[splangy]

OK, first saying that we should repudiate "proven" science such as gravity, quantum mechanics, and general relativity is a bit much don't you think?? To clear this up I said that science doesn't always see everything, sometimes there are areas that we "genuinely" have a limited knowledge. Second, comparing handling a tarantula to driving drunk a bit much too:?:? How many T's have you handled to make such a statement?? I've been handling every day for the past 15 years, you?? I doubt your data is sufficient to make such a consequential claim. Man I would have a heck of a streak if 15 years is all luck huh???You would think that with 15 years of handling aggressive T's I would have gotten tagged by now?Tell my P. metallica that.. Or maybe my H. lividum Also I am not attacking anyone for not handling their T's. If you are uncomfortable handling them you really shouldn't handle them. If you want to replicate nature then thats cool too. My question to you is how are you any different if you are saying don't handle your T when you don't or never have handled them? Thats like telling someone to invest in certain areas of the stock market when you haven't had any experience investing yourself. No offense your credibility is in question without personal experience.

The three physics concepts I listed are three of the most disputed and rehashed hypotheses out there. They are by no means "proven" science.

I understand what you are saying about me having a lack of data. But... by the same token, I also have a lack of data about drunk driving. For all I know, it could be waaay safer than everyone makes it out to be. However, there are things that I know about cognitive function when a person is drunk that lead me to assume it is risky. Handling a tarantula parallels that. There are significiant risks when handling one. One drop could kill the tarantula. I'd say the risks of death or injury to a tarantula when they are being handled are probably pretty similar to the risks of driving drunk.

I do handle my Ts (I avoid the more defensive ones, though). But I try to minimize it as much as possible. Really, my only reason for doing it is if I need to clean out a cage.... Or sometimes I'm bored... and I admit it, I poke my rosea's leg just to watch her do something (I'm awful I know). But I'm not taking them out and holding them for sheer joy.

I have similar experiences to you in not being hurt, and I would honestly attribute it to your skill, and not to the tarantulas getting used to you. I grew up hunting ants, my dad is an entomologist. From birth almost, I was brought up to collect ants for collection. I've collected hundreds of thousands of ants, and even discovered a couple new species. I can catch any ant with my bare hands (no matter how fast or how many obstacles for them to hide under), not injure the ant at all, and I NEVER get stung. I'm so good, I can literally shove my hand into a fire ant nest, and they can't touch me. At one point, the site we were at got invaded by army ants (the ones that swarm out and cover and kill anything they run in to). It was intense, everyone around me got pegged, but not me. That doesn't mean I've trained the ants to accept me. It means I'm damn good at anticipating and predicting their behavior and I do all the right things to avoid being stung.

 

[Fran]

Thats the magic of posting on internet boards, you can put whatever you want and call it "truth".

About what Singapore Blue said...Basically, how can you know if to stick your t into a microwave oven is bad, if you have never done it and dont have the experience?
You need to handle T's for "15 years every day" in order to say its good or bad for them.

 

[splangy]

Thank you Fran! The microwave is probably a more apt comparison than drunk driving. lol

 

[Fran]

Thank you Fran! The microwave is probably a more apt comparison than drunk driving. lol

Sorry, i really didnt read your last post.You basically explained the same there.
But is true...I mean yeah, you need proof man...Thats what it is.

Ill be back in 15 years.

 

[Shrike]

I'm so good, I can literally shove my hand into a fire ant nest, and they can't touch me.

The Ant Whisperer!

 

[Singapore_Blue1]

First of all, I've handled my T's everyday for 15 years excluding being sick or travel or what not so yes I missed a few days here and there. But the point is I make it a point to hold them on a regular basis. Second, I've had T's since I was 10 well I'm 25 so do the math.. Third, gravity isn't real huh?? And by the way using putting a T in the microwave as a comparison is laughable at best. You obviously have no clue. I find it amusing that when you read a lot of the bite reports guess what the common factor is more times than not.....wait for it....the person doesn't hold their T....hmmmmm. You would think if there was nothing to my hypothesis my luck would have run out a long time ago because being lucky for 15 years would be something considering the defensive T's I've held..I should play the lottery. Oh and about proof....If you would like pics of me and my H. lividum, or P. metallica I'll be more than happy to show them off. I obviously can't give you proof that I've been in the hobby for 15 years or the fact that I've held them everyday. You would have to take my word for it but a tame H. lividum come on man. When is the last time you have seen one of those? .:wall::wall::wall:

 

[splangy]

Third, gravity isn't real huh??

There's not actually a consensus on how exactly gravity works. That's part of why they're trying to find the Higgs Boson in all those accelerators that people think are going to create black holes and destroy the Earth... The observation that gravity exists is not disputed, but the theory behind WHY is. Simply put, the theory of gravity is disputed.

It's the same thing with you and your Ts. The observation that you're able to handle them is not disputed. The theory behind WHY you're able to hold them is.

You didn't address my argument that perhaps the reason you don't get bit is that you're really good at predicting their behavior and moving in such a way that you don't get bit. I bet if you went and found a T in the wild, you could handle it in much the same way, despite the fact that you never "trained" it. You are the Tarantula Whisperer. :worship:

The fact that you handle them and don't get bit can be explained in ways other than assuming tarantulas have cognitive abilities beyond what we know them to have. Just because we might like to believe that they can be trained doesn't mean that's the explanation to your situation.

 

[xhexdx]

Oh and about proof....If you would like pics of me and my H. lividum, or P. metallica I'll be more than happy to show them off. I obviously can't give you proof that I've been in the hobby for 15 years or the fact that I've held them everyday. You would have to take my word for it but a tame H. lividum come on man. When is the last time you have seen one of those? .:wall::wall::wall:

No, I don't want pictures. I want to see it for myself, as I clearly stated in my earlier post.

For the record, I doubt your lividum is tame (I've held one too, by the way).

 

[Singapore_Blue1]

Proof

I'd be more than happy to meet up with you but I've moved to TN. Not in PSL anymore. I need to change that on my profile. Also I'll be coming down to FL to see a friend over the summer so maybe we can meet up then if you must see it in person. By all means bring a video camera or whatever you need for documentation. Also my H. lividum is very calm, never had a threat pose so yes I think I can call it tame. Also I find it very hard to believe that I have a skill that no one else has to be able to read them.. I find that amusing because I don't really need to be able to read them because they really don't get defensive with me. No kicking, threat poses just really chilled out. I really don't understand why that is so hard to believe. The ant comparison is overreaching too in my honest opinion. That isn't the same thing. As I said in my prior statement you don't stay lucky for 15 years sorry but you don't. I'd love to really have scientific data to back up my claim here but honestly there is no real way to prove my point so it is really just all conjecture.

 

[splangy]

Yeah, except you've got 90% of the last 15 years experience in your own admission. That's going to give you skill that other people don't have.

And my argument is not that you can tell when they're going to throw a threat pose... it's that you know how to keep them from throwing a threat pose in the first place. You're doing things subconsiously. You're probably just a lot more in tune with your Ts than the average person.

I agree that you haven't been lucky for the last 15 years. You've developed skills during that time. Your Ts are just Ts.

It's occham's razor here... the simplest explanation is that you're skilled at handling. The complicated explanation is that you've somehow developed skills in your Ts that parallel NOTHING they have in their arsenal of possible adaptations. One requires practice, motor control, and interpersonal intelligence. The other requires magic and the biological impossible.


Also... my hypothesis CAN be tested... If you attempt to handle 10 Ts that have never been handled, and they stay calm, obviously, it's you.