Handling hotter species.

[logan909]

i held my Hadrurus arizonensis quite often but thats not really a hot species.

i actually prefer to handle them over the P. imperators i think that is mostly due to the condition's of the tanks sand is much easier to work with.

 

[Ecstasy]

Handling anything that can possibly kill you is stupid, it's that simple.

Hot or not, you can always have an allergic reaction, and if somebody does die from it, it brings attention to the hobby. As a snake keeper, I see the way they keep provoking new laws because of the snake stuff with the media, and it could easily get enforced on our hobby.

If some breeders would be more concerned about who they sell to, then a lot of hassle would be avoided by selling to these people who want to handle it. If I was selling anything except the Emperor/Flat Rock or something along that line and the buyer told me he wanted to handle it, I would simply refuse the sale to him and I would not change my mind and decide to sell, I would call it seller responsibility.

 

[logan909]

Handling anything that can possibly kill you is stupid, it's that simple.

Hot or not, you can always have an allergic reaction, and if somebody does die from it, it brings attention to the hobby. As a snake keeper, I see the way they keep provoking new laws because of the snake stuff with the media, and it could easily get enforced on our hobby.

If some breeders would be more concerned about who they sell to, then a lot of hassle would be avoided by selling to these people who want to handle it. If I was selling anything except the Emperor/Flat Rock or something along that line and the buyer told me he wanted to handle it, I would simply refuse the sale to him and I would not change my mind and decide to sell, I would call it seller responsibility.

you do have a good point there are many laws i do not completely agree with regarding animals . however some laws are necessary to insure the survival of the species


i definitely do not understand holding centipedes

 

[DireWolf0384]

Does anyone know the impact handling hots can have on the hobby? Congress already wants to ban the possession of any exotic pet. The local news said something like "People even own Tarantula's, Scorpions and venomous snakes! Its a ticking time bomb!". The news eats this stuff up every time someone handles what they consider "dangerous" and politicians, both local state and federal just use it. I have only handled my P. Imperator and my H. Paucidens and I do that not every day. I handled my H. Arizonensis once and she stung me repeatedly so that was the end of that. People who handle their L.Q just to be cool really annoy me. That's just me. I hope I don't make any enemies with my opinion.

 

[Aschamne]

I have handled some of my hotter scorpions, it was not to look cool. I didn't even get pictures of most of them. I just have a need to handle, I have handle many hotter species in the wild that what I own. I still believe that most people should not handle them. But please do not make blanket statements that all people that handle do so to show off as this is simply not true. Also if I were to get stung, I would probably just take a couple Advil and a Benadryl. Even with the hot species most stings will not result in death, so with me being 6'3" and 285 lbs. I am not to worried.

Art

 

[KUJordan]

I just have a need to handle, I have handle many hotter species in the wild that what I own. I still believe that most people should not handle them. But please do not make blanket statements that all people that handle do so to show off as this is simply not true. .

Art

Ok, first of all- if you have a NEED to handle hot scorpions, that is what is called an addiction. If you are dependent on something with the consequence of not getting it being withdrawal, and satisfying that dependence means putting your health in jeopardy, it is an addiction.

When it comes to blanket statements about "hobbyists" who repeatedly disregard the future of our beloved hobby, by HOLDING DANGEROUS ANIMALS, then blanket statements are perfectly reasonable. People say that when it comes to cleaning a tank or transferring buthids, holding it is easier than using tongs and a brush/deli cups...this is stupid and makes no sense whatsoever. It won't be easier when the scorpion decides it really likes your warm hand and does NOT want to let go, or runs up your arm.

Bottom line- when it comes to dangerous scorpions, spiders, and centipedes- there is NEVER EVER a good excuse for freehandling them. The only excuse is a very selfish one.

Also if I were to get stung, I would probably just take a couple Advil and a Benadryl. Even with the hot species most stings will not result in death, so with me being 6'3" and 285 lbs. I am not to worried

And about this...Where did you get the impression that the cause of death for many/most envenomations was directly a result of the toxicity of the venom? Read up on anaphylaxis- being a big guy might actually be disadvantageous in that scenario... just saying...

-Jordan

 

[Nomadinexile]

I don't think people should handle hot species of scorpions, and most should handle any of them. But I have to play devils advocate here.

How many of you get into cars? OMG, you are so dumb. You are all risking your life, every time you do. Over 30,000 die each year and hundreds of thousands are seriously injured and have their lives change forever. I think you are all addicted to this unsafe act and should seek help. And if you brag about the size of your engine, or modify your car in any way for performance, then you have serious problems.

How many people here drink? How many eat non organic food covered in Neurologically damaging pesticides? How about fast food? Cigarettes? You take vaccines with adjuvants?

For those of you you can say no to all of this, go start blessing people and start a religion or something. For the rest of you, calm down. You shouldn't hold hot scorpions. It's a dumb idea, and I won't have sympathy for you if you get stung. But, really, if one person getting stung from holding their own scorpion "ruins the hobby", then we should just have the government lock everyone in their houses and deliver everything straight to us by slow moving padded robots. We need to stop having our government
"saving" us from ourselves. How about a little personal responsibility? If you have to do something foolish, thats your problem. When rock climbers and mountaineers die, do they ban rock climbing??? Do we want guns banned because a criminal (or cop in Detroit this week) shoots and kills a child? Life's dangerous. We put way to much nervousness into irresponsible behavior of keepers as compared to society. Heck, BP is killing off the GULF of Mexico right now, from their neglecting 3 failed safety tests in a row on the BOP. Where's the outrage? So what if someone wants to injure or kill themselves with a scorpion? It shouldn't effect us.

Lets keep it in perspective. Okay, now I feel better.

*Edit* Btw, I'm about to spend two weeks riding my bike across the desert alone to go collecting. I'm going to be knee deep in Rattlesnakes, including the Mojave, and everyone that I see will be armed. BP, Ranchers, and smugglers will all be armed. I will have a cat hole shovel and some water and beef jerky. I am probably 10,000% more likely to die in the next two weeks than if I held my Androctonus australis every day for those two weeks. Should I not be allowed to ride into the desert? Sorry, but I believe in freedom. Even freedom to do dumb, reckless, dangerous things. Go freedom.

 

[Malhavoc's]

its quiet easy to sit, and simply put it in a term of pros and cons when it comes to handling hot species of any pet. not just scorpions.

these are just a few I can think off of the bat
Pros:
1) disprovin "Agressive myths"
2) enlighten and wow people who are ignorant to the species
3) Further understanding of the species behavorial patterns.

cons:
1) stressful to the animal
2) stressful to the handler
3) harmful to the animal
4) harmful to the animal
5) Deadly to handler, and possibly anyone else if scorpion makes a break for it.
6) News cover of said mishap.


Now mind you, Handling for <edit> and giggles, well. there is more cons then pros in that one, my scenario is when I would handle said species- educational purpose, and the hotter the species the more safty taken rather then stupidity, gloves etc.

This all said and done it is possible with enough knowlede of their behavorial traits to free hand almost any venomous/harmful reature out there, the best question however. is "WHY?"

 

[Nomadinexile]

cons:
1) stressful to the animal
2) stressful to the handler
3) harmful to the animal
4) harmful to the animal
5) Deadly to handler, and possibly anyone else if scorpion makes a break for it.
6) News cover of said mishap.

This all said and done it is possible with enough knowlede of their behavorial traits to free hand almost any venomous/harmful reature out there, the best question however. is "WHY?"

Good post. But I want to respond to some of it.
for your cons, 1-4: I've seen no evidence that it is harmful or stressful to the scorpion. Does it create defensive stance/behavior sometimes? Yes, but how often does that happen the wild? And once supported, the non hots I've handled usually become quiet calm and behave "normally". Is it ideal for them? Probably not. But is it less ideal once in a while, than their experiences in the wild? Heck no.

As for the stress to human handler, I would say that if it's that stressful, don't hold it. Otherwise, I would call it adrenaline, which people seek out in much more reckless ways all the time. In fact, people have been murdered so that others could shoot up their adrenal glands. I don't think that's a good reason to hold a scorpion mind you, but I do think that matters in regards to your comment.

As for 5, "deadly to the handler", I know of 0 cases of this. Now, there probably haven't been that many people to do it, and it is of course a possibility on some small percentage. Hospitalization is the most likely outcome. Media coverage of that, would be slim if any. Now, if someone were to die, there would be media coverage, but this event is extremely unlikely in a country with decent trauma facilities.

Worst case scenario under these circumstances, would be a sting, without the recovery of said scorpion due to someone freaking out. If the escapee were to later kill a child, then it would have major coverage. But again, that string of events is highly, highly unlikely.

As for why? And I don't think it's a good reason, but... Obviously the thrill. Why do people rock climb? I can't for the life of me, wrap my brain around it. Like that guy that free climbs skyscrapers? Its the possibility of death that he is getting excited by. Base jumpers die on a regular basis. Why would you base jump? Waiting until the last possible second to pull your chute is a great way to kill yourself. Yet that is considered cool. I'm not trying to justify it, and I still don't think it's a good idea, but you have to be honest about the reasons people would do it, and deal with that, to push them in the right direction. (Like off a power tower!) Hehe. I get my thrills collecting in the desert. Otherwise, I might consider holding mine if it was the only thing I had to get a thrill from. We are human beings, and modern life can be a drudgery. That being said, there are better ways to get your kicks.

 

[Malhavoc's]

There is always the chance of complications, but I will deffiantly not start a deadly vs harmful topic.. lol..I was just being general, for most animals not just scorpions.

the reason I point out stress is yes, while the animal would calm down, I do not believe the recognition of it being held or atop of another animal ever truely leaves, and all in all it is a large expendature of energy for the animal, that when perhaps in most situations, it would be inactive since most scorpions are noctunral. So stress would be there in limited degrees.

And yes the human body is capable of producing adrenaline but I do believe stress is required for that most awesome substance. Since adreline pushes our bodies to the limits it does stress the body.

Over all. my general opinion for handling hotter species, is limited to educational practice and a must, infact I often personaly would recomend learning *how* to handle said hotter species, because you never know when you may have to. Better safe then sorry neh?

The idea of the pros and cons was just to give people something, a bit less.. involved to think about why one should or shouldnt handle it, and its a nice clear way to decide when to do it or not, for any specimen, of course. Some of my pros, and cons can be a bit off, it is ment for most handlers to fill it in themselves and thus come to a decision if they want to or not.

 

[Toirtis]

Hospitalization is the most likely outcome. Media coverage of that, would be slim if any.

You are not apparently too familiar with the media...any incident involving reptiles or scorpions is going to get significant press...its odd and shocking...and that sells news. With newsies monitoring emergency scanners, you can bet one would pick up on an ambulance responding to a scorpion sting.

 

[Nomadinexile]

I agree with you on most everything. My point in replying to you was to point out that the stress to the scorpion is a bit overstated in my opinion, and that people do seek out adrenaline in many ways, and this is normal. Accepting that and that holding a hot scorpion would be a rush, is a good place to start, instead of ending with that. My point in posting in the first place was to add perspective and play devils advocate, as unanimous agreement leaves too much out of the conversation. I do agree with you though for the most part. I hold my "milds", for education and photography in sunlight without exposing their cages or them to parasites etc. I've also had an escapee during cage transfer that I had to catch by hand, before I had enough experience. I think free handling a bit has helped me in many regards in my keeping. I don't think you should hold your "hots", but I think there is little harm, and quite a bit of good, that comes from holding one or two species, at least once.

 

[Malhavoc's]

Well said Nomadinexile. I think between the two of us, I' ve run out of things to say

 

[Nomadinexile]

You are not apparently too familiar with the media...any incident involving reptiles or scorpions is going to get significant press...its odd and shocking...and that sells news. With newsies monitoring emergency scanners, you can bet one would pick up on an ambulance responding to a scorpion sting.

I'm all too familiar with "the media". I grew up with a mother who was the Public Relations front"man" for a large corporation in a large American city. I am also a news junkie. I read dozens of media websites on a daily basis, from local, national, and international sites. My knowledge of media, it's functions and behaviors, are not lacking.

Also, why would you be calling an ambulance? If someone is going to hold a hot, I would hope they would do so with someone nearby who has a vehicle and is prepared to drive them to the nearest hospital. For example, I live so close to a major hospital, that I would get there before an ambulance would arrive at my house. There would be no emt needed. They could help in the case of allergic reaction, but otherwise getting to the hospital is where you will actually receive care that MIGHT be needed. And where I live, people get stung by scorpions. We have 2 species living all the way into downtown here. So therefor, a scorpion sting would not elicit press attention. In fact, I just received an email from a local family that found an 8" S. heros in their house. That's normal here.

I get where you are coming from, and in Canada, it may be a different story. But here, it wouldn't be a news story unless you called an ambulance freaking out talking about how deadly it is, hence freaking out dispatch, and then maybe. IF you died, that would get a story on the 6 o'clock news, but I don't think you would hear about it after that. There's just too many other things happening for anyone to care. They are more worried about other things, like a recent murder and some robberies, that actually effect other people. I know they are "shock" driven, but I don't think even if they did hear about it, that it would be a huge deal here. Maybe in a rural area, but not in our large cities, not if handled properly. And I doubt most of us would call for an ambulance anyway.

 

[Malhavoc's]

TBH.

Even in canada, news coverage would only be bad if in the case of it being a educational hold, and it got out and stung one of the students etc etc etc, and even then it depends upon the size of the town, smaller towns get higher coverage due to little else to report on, but never reaches international scale larger towns are more intrested in the latest celebrity date etc etc etc.

however in canada, where there are no local scorpions, chances of a doctor who knows what the hell you are one about, is limited. which gives more reason to have someone standing by who does and ready to assist...

Besides, with most thrill seeking there is usualy two guys, one with balls of steel and one with a camera.

I am reminded of the odd story of an H arizonus being discovered on a plane once, it lasted a week then burned out, but even then any bad rep given is going backwords IMO, since they seem intent on begining to crack down on the invert hobby.

 

[Nomadinexile]

I am reminded of the odd story of an H arizonus being discovered on a plane once, it lasted a week then burned out, but even then any bad rep given is going backwords IMO, since they seem intent on begining to crack down on the invert hobby.

They are trying to crack down on everything here. Anything they can tax or make a law about. I don't know how much bad press would effect that though. The bozos we keep putting in office think their jobs are to make more rules and regulations, non-stop. Never mind the fact that there are 10,000's on the books they don't enforce. They just keep making new ones, all the time, about everything. It's getting stupid. Here in Austin, if you are homeless, you aren't allowed to sit or lay down, even in the parks! But now there is a push to build benches for homeless with medical problems to sit on. They are going to spend tons of money, to build about 20 benches, out of the way of anything, so that a small percentage of the homeless population, has somewhere to sit. But that's the only place they are allowed to sit, and only if you have a doctors note! Hah. They just want everyone to be a "criminal", so they have a reason to arrest or fine anyone they want, whenever they want. That way, no one can complain about the fascist dictatorship they are installing. We need to install governments who spend their time in office scratching laws off the books. That should be the job of our politicians for the next 30 years. Not writing more bs laws we can't afford to enforce, and are messed up anyway. Oh, I'm getting mad. I'm gonna leave this one alone now. :evil:

 

[AzJohn]

Hello, I was going to stay out of this thread, but it might turn into somthing useful.

I personaly don't handle any of my scorpions by choice. The scorpion gets nothing possitive from it, so why bother. Now I do think a person who keeps hots should have some experience with handleing less dangerous species. I've handled many of my native species while transfering them between cages, while photographing them, or while out collecting. If one of my tityus scorpions gets loose and on my hand I feel I would be able to handle the situation better because I'm comfortable with the less dangerous one. As it is, it's never happened and it should never happen. The closest i've come to getting tagged was a unlooked for encounter with a C sculpturatus while out flipping rocks. This thing was on my back. I was able to get her and she's now part of my communal group. The key to avoiding the staing was staying calm. Again handling the safer scorpions helped.

Now handling medically significant species is a whole other thing. There are species in the hobby that can kill you. I know it is very rare for a healthy person to die, but it can happen. Outside of death there is still the possibility of other significant medical problems could occur. What would the cost of a sting be for the person? Loose your inverts, lots of pain, $10,000 in medical bills. To me it isn't worth it. I can't see any situation where handling is needed.

john

 

[Toirtis]

TBH.

Even in canada, news coverage would only be bad if in the case of it being a educational hold, and it got out and stung one of the students etc etc etc, and even then it depends upon the size of the town, smaller towns get higher coverage due to little else to report on, but never reaches international scale larger towns are more intrested in the latest celebrity date etc etc etc.

Not at all...a lost sawscale viper in Toronto, a loose caimen in Vancouver, and a live rat found in Calgary (just to name three examples in major cities), all saw international coverage. A single sting from an emperor scorp in Saskatchewan made news across three provinces and resulted in a ban on scorps in that city.

however in canada, where there are no local scorpions

Except the native species, P. boreas, right?

I am reminded of the odd story of an H arizonus being discovered on a plane once,

The Westjet flight from Calgary to Edmonton 5 years ago? It was a hitch-hiker and nobody got stung...not really the same thing.

 

[Malhavoc's]

Not at all...a lost sawscale viper in Toronto, a loose caimen in Vancouver, and a live rat found in Calgary (just to name three examples in major cities), all saw international coverage. A single sting from an emperor scorp in Saskatchewan made news across three provinces and resulted in a ban on scorps in that city.



Except the native species, P. boreas, right?



The Westjet flight from Calgary to Edmonton 5 years ago? It was a hitch-hiker and nobody got stung...not really the same thing.

I was not aware of P boreas, thank you for that! I will have to look them up a bit.

Nor was I aware of these stories you mention.

And no the flight I was thinking of I believe was just a dometic flight from Arizona to another state, and the scorpion was found freeroaming in the baggage cubard things above the passangers (probably came off someones bag)

However, I mentioned it as it was *a big thing* but burned out within a week and the story forgotton.

 

[Aschamne]

Though they are not abundant in my area, there are two species of spider that I handle when I can find one(only have found a few of each over the last 20 years of being in Illinois). These species are Latrodectus variolus and Loxosceles reclusa, and IMHO the recluse is more dangerous and the widow is about equal to the most dangerous scorpion that I keep(Parabuthus transvaalicus). But as a kid, I would handle Crotelus atrox, Agkistrodon contortrix, and Agkistrodon piscivorus. Also when I would handle these snakes I was usually alone, because the fear of my mom beating my rear end was worse than the fear of being bitten by the snakes.

I do understand anaphylaxis. But, when it comes to allergic reactions the source of the venom that caused it is irrelevant. I could just as easily die from a wasp as I could from a scorpion in that case. All that I am saying is that death is inevitable, so if you get enjoyment from handling a hot animal then do it. But, on the other hand if you are handling just to show off then you should not be doing it.

Art