Good news for food production around the world

[The Snark]

Somewhat off topic. Went to work at a gas station in the evening. An animal control truck parked out front with yellow warning light flashing. The officer had already put a call in for an apiarist, Huge swarm under the canopy right outside the office. Apiarist came up in a truck after about an hour. Even had a 15 foot ladder. Poetry in motion. He had his job down pat. Got on his bee suit and helmet-visor thing then smoke ejector, put up the ladder then went up and like a choreographed ballet neatly bagged the swarm making certain he got the queen. Took maybe 5 minutes.
And I had to pump gas for the rest of the evening with stray bees flying around everywhere.

 

[aprilmayjunebugs]

you have presented dozens of opposing contentions

Yet when he indulges you with facts, you got nothing but stories.

 

[DomGom TheFather]

Yet when he indulges you with facts, you got nothing but stories.

It doesn't matter.
Even if i knew what I'm talking about, we're two posts away from that time he ran an apiary in the Rockies for John Denver or something.

 

[The Snark]

Went to work at a gas station

If anyone wants the backgrounder. Northeast corner of Lake Ave and New York drive, Altadena. The owner was a very remarkable man well known in the community. Asking around there among old timers it shouldn't be difficult to unearth numerous mentions of him and the special purpose he kept that station going for decades. His son runs a nearby gas station today and it would be quite easy to find and chat with him.

A human interest story of extraordinary grim determination

Spoiler

The owner of the aforementioned gas station ran his business partly for profit and partly for the benefit of the locals. He had a drawer full of IOUs from people he extended credit to and I once saw him clean that drawer dumping the slips into the trash.
He was in a terrible car accident and in the hospital he was informed he would never walk again. Spinal cord partially severed. After an extended stay he called his son in and had him literally carry him out of the hospital with staff protesting. At home his son built up the bedroom for full handicapped assist while he practiced every waking moment to make his leg muscles to lock up. When he managed to get them rigid he got to his feet, his legs able to support him but otherwise immobile. With the use of hand holds and railings he pivoted his way to the bathroom to take care of business. He spent over a year working on the pivoting as his means of walking.
Then he had his son take him to his gas station. The office built up like the bedroom with assist devices. Plenty of counters for him to lean on and move about.
He added balance to his mobility so he was able to 'walk' short distances by pivoting. The gas station office and his home became a training center for him to improve the pivot walk. Ultimately he was able to cross a room unassisted.
His son modified his favorite vehicle so it could be operated by hands only This wasn't good enough. He wanted foot control. So his son rigged up pedals with his feet in the middle, pivot left to brake, right to accelerate.
He then was able to drive himself to work, get out of his car, and with grab rails and counter tops, make his way from the back of the station to the front office. And then, he started going out to pump gas. Pivot his way out to the pump island. While his son downplayed everything he became something of a local legend which can be dug up to this day if someone puts in a little effort.

The USDA low down on the vaccine: https://www.fsa.usda.gov/news-room/news-releases/2020/usda-announces-updates-for-honeybee-producers

 

[DaveM]

Yet when he indulges you with facts, you got nothing but stories.

You don't seem to have either.
Look at all of the papers @The Snark has posted, contributing a lot more real facts than anyone else in this thread.

If farmers could find a better solution than honey bees, they would. Sure, they're motivated by money. Is anyone here trying to make a living and not motivated by money?

The evolution of this thread is interesting. Can't find a way to attack this vaccine, so instead they attack what the vaccine protects, without following through to the logical consequences of what they are ultimately attacking: farmers and capitalism, the heart and backbone of the USA.

 

[The Snark]

Not fair! I haven't got to the good story yet! My family had made friends with another family in Valyermo that were apiarists. Our common family outing camping trips was at the 'bee ranch'. Spent many enjoyable days stomping the desert around that ranch. And one day, just to see if I could, I took a back pack and instead of going home with my parents I walked home to Altadena. North to south, across the entire San Gabriels. Arse busting 5 day hike that got me addicted to wilderness hiking.
Later on, going on a hike to visit the bee ranch was my favorite treat. Best was truant officers are all but non existent in them thar mountains.
)I'll take the test and rattle off each and every location and point of interest of that entire hike. I'll even toss in the slopes of the trails and the side trip to Wrightwood. Nifty nifty, unknown to me at the time, a section of my route was the Pacific Crest Trail first established by John Muir, that runs the entire length of Calif, and a lot more.

 

[DaveM]

Not fair! I haven't got to the good story yet! My family had made friends with another family in Valyermo that were apiarists. Our common family outing camping trips was at the 'bee ranch'. Spent many enjoyable days stomping the desert around that ranch. And one day, just to see if I could, I took a back pack and instead of going home with my parents I walked home to Altadena. North to south, across the entire San Gabriels. Arse busting 5 day hike that got me addicted to wilderness hiking.
Later on, going on a hike to visit the bee ranch was my favorite treat. Best was truant officers are all but non existent in them thar mountains.
)I'll take the test and rattle off each and every location and point of interest of that entire hike. I'll even toss in the slopes of the trails and the side trip to Wrightwood. Nifty nifty, unknown to me at the time, a section of my route was the Pacific Crest Trail first established by John Muir, that runs the entire length of Calif, and a lot more.

Great! John Muir is much better than John Denver. They won't be disappointed. And bee keeping is fun!

All this said, I'm getting mason bees and leafcutters this year. Native and evidently superior pollinators, though I understand that they're less suited in some respects for large scale agriculture. The social nature of honey bees makes practical the administration of this new vaccine (i.e. from queen to her brood). Come to think of it, the term 'vaccine' is loosely applied. Maybe we should come up with a new, unpoliticized term, like 'proactive antigen exposure' or 'specific immunity enhancement.' How many of them would climb right on board, without realizing that there isn't any difference?

 

[The Snark]

@DaveM Oh do tell me we have a budding bee charmer on this board. I've never been able to work into the right mind frame or whatever to become essentially invisible to the bees. Horses I can do, but nope with the buzzmonsters.
A wonderflug. Apiarists working hand in hand with the orchard farmers of the Calif central valley. The more the bees, the better the crop is an established rule so the farmers go out of their way to accommodate hives and hive access.

 

[DaveM]

@DaveM Oh do tell me we have a budding bee charmer on this board. I've never been able to work into the right mind frame or whatever to become essentially invisible to the bees. Horses I can do, but nope with the buzzmonsters.
A wonderflug. Apiarists working hand in hand with the orchard farmers of the Calif central valley. The more the bees, the better the crop is an established rule so the farmers go out of their way to accommodate hives and hive access.

My little sister keeps a few hives and experiments planting plots of different flower species to tinker with the honey flavor. Too much of a time commitment for me right now, sadly. I have more than a dozen different varieties of apple trees, though, and am experimenting with breeding new varieties. Apple genetics is interesting. For pollinators, enough seem to find my property without any effort on my part, though I'm going to add the leafcutter and mason bees this year -- not much effort there.

 

[aprilmayjunebugs]

@DaveM Do I have to be any kind of specialist to point out the obvious? That a certain group of people would rather inoculate everything than attack the root cause of anything?

 

[DaveM]

@DaveM Do I have to be any kind of specialist to point out the obvious? That a certain group of people would rather inoculate everything than attack the root cause of anything?

What is the root cause?
We all agree that there are problems in the world. People study problems to try to solve them, sometimes for the benefit of many, and we're very lucky to have certain specialists that devote themselves to solving specific types of problems. It's too bad some kind of counterculture has arisen that resents and disrespects them.

Inoculate everything? <-- aren't you exaggerating just a wee bit?
I think some problems are best solved by diplomacy, some with a kind word, some with a wrench, some with fresh air, some with electronics, some with a fire extinguisher, some with a spoon, some with music, some with legislation, some with vegetables, some with warm clothing, some with moisturizer cream, some with dental floss, some with physical therapy, some with exercise, some with dietary modifications, some with duct tape, some with a mop, some [sadly] with weapons, some [sometimes also sadly] with lawyers, some with money, some with a chainsaw, some with water, some with fire, some with teamwork, some with lubricant, some with surgery, some with soap, some with playtime, some with artwork that inspires.... ....too many possibly useful ways to solve problems to list here.
There are vaccines for many bacterial diseases, but antibiotics often work better, or basic sanitation and healthy living. For viruses -- what would you suggest? There are drugs that target viral replication, we can try to get people to modify their behavior to reduce the spread, but vaccines are usually the best line of defense that we have. Not always: HIV drugs are excellent, no effective vaccines yet; that's a difficult one.

For you, I hope no one tries to force you to be anything you don't want. Science empowers you. It can help you live longer and better, giving you food security, and a wealth of tools and toys that enrich your life. I would think you'd be happy about that.

In this thread, and to be on topic:
* bees have been dying of an uncontrollable disease
* smart people found a way to control the disease
* in so doing, they have shed new light on poorly understood insect immune mechanisms

How is that not thrilling to you? It's not exactly like landing on the moon, but aren't you proud of your fellow humans for doing something special that could help solve a problem?
Other people doing something special doesn't make you any less special. We're all so special, plenty of specialness to go around

 

[The Snark]

My little sister keeps a few hives and experiments planting plots of different flower species to tinker with the honey flavor.

Useless for the most part, but I could give her some suggestions of significantly different honeys from west coast flowers. Intensely sweet > clover. Can give some people headaches. Orange blossom, has a noticeable slight tang. Sage, and buckwheat, darker color, stronger flavor, less sweet. Assorted from west coast mountains including mesuite, called Mountain, strongest flavor, darkest color. All I can recall right now. OH. Nut orchards, especially Almond? Similar to mountain. but lighter color and less strong flavor. Some nut orchards, not sure which, produce the intense sweetness of clover. And whatever you do, avoid Frangipani. Ultra intensely sweet that gives many people headaches. Just the scent of the flowers gives some a headache and that odor is strongly present in the honey.

As for inoculate everything instead of attacking the root cause. Let's start with the root cause of the majority of diseases, feces. Well, at any given time there is a huge army of people working on controlling that root cause. The absence of clean water is one presently insurmountable problem which is being worked on constantly, then the lack of sanitary facilities followed closely by the headache I worked on for years, getting people up to speed in the health and hygiene fields. So yes, the major root causes are definitely being worked on.
As for inoculating EVERYTHING?? Holy yipes. We have, what? Say 10,000 significantly problematic diseases prevalent right now. And we have developed vaccines for a small handful of SOME OF the worst. A very tiny fraction of the overall disease burden.
So say, If we had an army of, roughly, a half million bio-techs like Dave with unlimited funding, it is possible that the majority of problematic diseases would have vaccines developed for them in, maybe a century? Or is this overly optimistic?
And of course ignoring mom nature throwing out ringers and changing the dance tunes in mid stride all the time.Use dengue as an example there.

Yo, @DaveM and the rest of the Daves out there, get with the program! You're not sleeping fast enough. Consider giving that time waste a miss!
And stop using searches for funding as an excuse! Think of three squares and a roof over your head as luxury items. (For those who haven't worked in the research lab sectors, this is an inside joke. Funding. }

 

[DomGom TheFather]

The evolution of this thread is interesting.

Not really.
Predictable, sure.

 

[The Snark]

The evolution of this thread is interesting.

attack the root cause

The thread is all about this web page which clearly shows the root cause: https://www.theworldcounts.com/chal...ity/how-many-people-die-from-hunger-each-year

 

[DomGom TheFather]

Junebugs,
Be careful. I think they may have a search engine.

 

[DomGom TheFather]

For the record, i never said I'm against inoculation.
But even if you've never cracked a hive, grown your supper or had two spiders between ya, i feel like I'm arguing with chatbots most of the time I'm on here.
Long winds and flowery words combined with the ability to source material for a point that never meant anything.
In commercial apiaries, you're sharing equipment, sharing hives, sharing comb and transporting the whole mess. But yes, you should throw more junk in the works and solve it that way because... Well... It's all about the bees

 

[aprilmayjunebugs]

So my question, after doing some reading, is it absolutely necessary? Could more diligent practices and catching it earlier so less bees have to be destroyed be a viable option to get a handle on it? Or would that take too long?

 

[DomGom TheFather]

Necessary?

Only really if you're playing with enormous monocrops and growing out thousands of genetically similar hives in close proximity through artificial splits by feeding them straight sugar with the end goal being a truck headed for California to hit that sweet hot market of freshly sprayed almonds... Or something.
Most of the time, you shouldn't have to provide your own bee. But like i said, what the hell do i know?

 

[aprilmayjunebugs]

Necessary?

Only really if you're playing with enormous monocrops and growing out thousands of genetically similar hives in close proximity through artificial splits by feeding them straight sugar with the end goal being a truck headed for California to hit that sweet hot market of freshly sprayed almonds... Or something.
Most of the time, you shouldn't have to provide your own bee. But like i said, what the hell do i know?

That's about what I gathered. I wonder if they will try to force small timers to do it in the future?
@DaveM I'd just like to point out that I made exactly one joke and one observation here before you came to your cronies rescue so you two could attempt to show off your brain wrinkles while completely ignoring the only person in this thread who actually keeps bees. Kinda shows your priorities, don't ya think?

 

[DaveM]

while completely ignoring the only person in this thread who actually keeps bees.

Well, I did grow up keeping bees. And I never ignore DomGom, really like that guy a lot actually (and he knows that I do too). He and I have talked out what are properly termed "respectful" disagreements. I recommend to you trying out that approach. I don't ignore you either, have written you some pretty friendly PMs that have gone unanswered. It's fine, and well within rules of this site to ignore people, just mentioning it so that we can avoid hypocrisy here.

I'd just like to point out that I made exactly one joke and one observation here

What was the observation?
That @The Snark doesn't present facts here? I was counting that as a second joke, a pretty good joke too. Great job

you two could attempt to show off your brain wrinkles

Show off to whom? To a bunch of anonymous strangers on a spider forum?
We're just talking casually here, exchanging information because... you know... that is the purpose of this site.
However, I'm truly flattered if you think my ordinary conversation is like some special talent that could qualify as showing off. Thank you so much for your kindness.

So my question, after doing some reading, is it absolutely necessary?

That's a great question, and a real positive step, especially the part about doing some reading before questioning.

Could more diligent practices and catching it earlier so less bees have to be destroyed be a viable option to get a handle on it? Or would that take too long?

Brilliant! I guess that just must not have occurred to them. The commercial beekeepers are the ones to ask. After those professionals have been struggling so much for many years, I'm sure they would appreciate you asking if they could simply be more diligent in their beekeeping practices. Amazing how you can just do a little bit of reading and cut to the heart of the problem like that -- I always knew you were special -- and maybe now you've spared them from the undesirable fate of having to rely on science, which is undesirable because....................................... not everyone understands it? ..............................and that makes them feel bad about themselves?.........................or they associate science with political enemies and people they otherwise resent? ............................or 'vaccine' has become a bad word to some?

But now, most seriously, communicating and celebrating scientific advancements should be most welcome here. This is a great one, with the potential to benefit humanity. Let's take the high road here and converse happily with good will toward all