fear factor cruelty

[Sequin]

Isnt What There Morons Are Doing Cruetly To Animals?? Whether They Feel It Or Not, I Feel It!! tHEY ARE DEPRIVING THESE ANIMALS OF THIER CHANCE AT LIFE!!!

agreed...even if they are not going to do anything significant in their life..haha.... They still shouldn't be killed for entertainment purposes whether they feel it or not

 

[danread]

Dan the man,

This was your quote, I just used it to prove my point, I turned NOTHING around. If you admit there is a possibility of me being right although in your opinion highly unlikely...you just pointed out the FACT that your "fact" isn't "fact" just a nice hypothesis. Unless anything you personally find highly unlikely becomes fact?

You have no further points that can be valid to claim your opinion is fact. By your own statement you won this debate for me...thanks.

ProfessorT,

You are being anal down to the nth degree. Of course i have to consider it a hypothesis, but on that basis, i have to consider everything i have ever been taught as hypotheses. I know that the moon is made of rock, not cheese. I know this because all the evidence available points to the fact is is rock and not a milk based dairy product. Despite all the evidence, if i was to explain this to someone else using your reasoning, i would have to acknowledge that my statement is only a hypothesis since i haven't actually been to the moon myself. Using your logic, someone could argue that the moon was indeed made of cheese because of the fact i have to admit the statement that of the moon being made of rock it is only a hypothesis. You see how lame your last point was?

I am happy to cite the evidence of inverts carrying out tasks such as feeding, grooming and walking when heavily injured or dying as evidence that inverts don't feel pain. Where is your evidence to prove your belief? I can also add photographic evidence if you wish.... I had left this male mantid in with the female over a weekend. When i came back i found the remains of what i thought was the dead male in the bottom of the encosure, the whole of his body had been eaten. Much to my suprise he was still alive, and able to move his head and focus on my moving finger. Just for a laugh i gave it a cricket, and look what happened. he proceded to eat about half of it before my girlfriend made me put it out of its misery.

Cheers,

 

[Professor T]

Being right, for any purpose other than being right, is something that might justify quiet celebration. Even if you're right, childish behavior clouds that fact.... hypothesis....

Scott C,

Thanks for being the mature one, but lets not forget what I was responding to:

I'd kick your nads myself, but basically, there's nothing left to be kicked. The King has spoken, and you are hanging nadless for all to see. I'm not sure why Code Monkey is still hopping up and down on them......
Rourke

I think I showed excellent retraint given the moderator needs a moderator IMHO.

 

[Rourke]

I think I showed excellent retraint given the moderator needs a moderator IMHO.

Code Monkey, somebody, ANYBODY, PLEASE.......moderate me. I'm trying here. I'm tryin'.....REAL.....HARD.....to be the shepherd.

 

[Code Monkey]

I've already taken the nadkickers title on this one and he has admitted that I'm correct, and then he used the rationalization I was too technical for the purpose of this board, something he is guilty of all the time.

No, see, there's where you are definitely wrong, heh. I freely admitted that if this were a peer reviewed journal, blah, blah, blah, because from the obtuse angle you have been arguing from you are right. I gave you that. However, there was no rationalisation; you are chasing windmills in the sense that you're demanding the inherently provisional nature of science on a web board, something that is pretty damn stupid in my book because we would never be able to do much of anything but throw up our hands and say, "I don't know! No, really I don't know."

At the same time, you ignore the use of science as provisional tool. Nobody runs around afraid to get in an airplane or take an elevator because gravity is "only" a theory. Nobody fails to take their medication because we don't know every single molecular reaction that takes place afterwards (or for that matter that the atomic nature of matter is "only" a theory). Science *IS* inherently provisional, I'll give you that, but when something is well enough established you act upon that provisional finding as if it were fact. Only in journals and academic departments (well, before now) where everybody is more anal retentive and unfun than myself do you find people who will actually not only point out that nothing much is really fact and only a provisional finding but argue ad nauseam with those who would dare to use science for the tool it is in a pragmatic matter.

Myself, if you show me a better documented 'provisional finding', I'll change what I believe to be the dominant 'provisional finding' in a second, I am not tied to my 'provisional findings' except as the best explanation the scientific method provides. However, I also spend my time as you do and as everyone else does treating those 'provisional findings' as shudder facts unless they happen to be genuinely provisional.

This is repetitive, this is tiresome, and this does nothing to make me respect Professor T's credentials one bit because from the beginning it's been nothing but one tiresome post after another without any purpose other than trying to take *me*, a "lowly entomology grad student", down a few notches when, while we both know the technical correctness of P_T's nitpicking in other contexts, we also both know where all the evidence shakes out of this one. Now, maybe I'm being too kind, maybe P_T really is a bit of a radical in science and he actually holds out hope that tarantulas are the octopi of the arachnid world, and, quite openly, he could be right, but so far everything points to him being wrong.

This really wouldn't need to be going on except for the emo side's insistence on having the last jab, and they can have it if they want so long as they stop trying to drag capitualations out of me that I never made. I still believe the chances that Ts are to any degree conscious and emotional - a necessity for *feeling* pain as opposed to simply sensing it - to be so slim as to be zero, the statement as fact that tarantulas cannot feel pain is something that I stand next to provisional upon someone showing they can at some point in the future. If someone shows it, I'll stop making the claim, but for now I feel equally confident in claiming they can't feel pain as I do claiming they can't learn to hold a pencil and write in English (something else never proven with the scientific method that they cannot do ;P).

The nature of the hobby demands that we work with what we have, and the nature of human nature demands that we don't expend a lot of time and mental energy trying to teach the dogmatic intricacies of the scientific method to every hobbyist that comes on this board. Now, maybe my rhetoric style leaves me open for more counter argument, and as rule I welcome it, it's entertaining for me and the board usually learns something. However, other than that we're both anal retentive asshats I don't think they learned anything, and certainly nothing of value.

For those of you who want to turn this board into a bunch of "could be"s and "the evidence suggests"s and even "the best hypothesis we have right now"s, hey, have at it. You can phrase *your* posts however you damn well want (and even I use such phraseology when the subject warrants it). But, to have wasted pages on what should have been at most a good bashing of Fear Factor on the turn of a phrase was pathetic.

 

[Tony]

I think its ridiculous and stupid, but not 'cruel' as has been stated..

btw is Rourke the first mod moderated for language?....and I was surprised at all the high brow talk in THIS thread, no lining up the producers for a shot to the head??? (Got that one second hand).
Oddly, this is the only site I frequent where political avatars are allowed..
T

 

[Sheri]

I think its ridiculous and stupid, but not 'cruel' as has been stated..

btw is Rourke the first mod moderated for language?....and I was surprised at all the high brow talk in THIS thread, no lining up the producers for a shot to the head??? (Got that one second hand).
Oddly, this is the only site I frequent where political avatars are allowed..
T

Oddly, avatar discussion seems misplaced here, no T?

And maybe this is the best site you visit...

 

[Rourke]

Rourke,

There was no substance in your post. Do you have an opinion on this topic or are you only capable of blowing hot air?

<EDITED to remove delirious garbage>

If you have anything intelligent to say on this topic, I'd LOVE to hear it.

The New And Improved King Nadkicker,
Professor T

OK, Perfessor. Don't equivocate. My post had no substance which you felt prepared to address. Perfectly forgivable, and I understand entirely your reluctance. The substance consisted of:

1. Pointing out the convoluted nature of your argument, which essentially amounted to a series of non sequiturs. And....
2. Allowing you define, for those parties interested, what might be your qualifications to render an opinion with respect to the scientific method and critical thought.

As far as saying anything intelligent on the subject, see my post #41 of this thread. Call it unintelligent if you like, but I let it stand to be judged by anyone.

So again, I ask: What, precisely, are your credentials? Your Username implies a PhD, and I am simply curious if the reality bears this out. I am also curious as to your publication record. The format of the boards here allows basically anyone to say just about anything. Publications in peer-reviewed journals, especially multiple publications in widely respected journals, serve to demonstrate your ability to think critically, to draw strong conclusions from specific data, and further present them in a format which the scientific community as a whole finds relevant and appropriate. I was only hoping, due to your approach to an argument (and your lofty Username) that you might have a little substance of your own to back you up. I reassert: It's quite understandable to me if you do not wish to address this, and I shall not feel the least bit slighted if you don't.

BUT, apparently you DO have some degree in Zoology, right? We just don't know WHAT degree. And did you literally earn it before Code Monkey was born? I mean, that's great, but I know it's hard for an old timer to keep up, particularly if not engaged in active research! No shame in it, you know! But.....the baby pool? Please. OK, I'll go back there if you promise to go to the drooling old folks' home, how's that?

And one final note: King Nadkicker is a title earned and bequeathed. You have certainly not earned it, nor has it been given to you. I'm confident that most here will find your delusional self-anointment pompous and offensive.

Perfessor Rourke

 

[bonesmama]

I've never watched fear factor because I always thought they were cruel-even to worms, and I hate worms!There are trees that release a toxin into there leaves when they are being eaten....what triggers this response? Do they FEEL their leaves being torn off? I don't know.I beleive all animals feel pain, or at the least discomfort-does this give humans the right to use them in whatever way they want? I think not. What I DO know is there are alot of people who can't see beyond their own noses and have no respect for any life beyond their own.

 

[Sheri]

You obviously haven't followed anything that was said; or you tried to follow it but it went over your head.

Over his head? Right... and bugs feel too, I forgot!
Perhaps it didn't occur to you that since CM's logic was clearly not effective with you, that perhaps a little humour would be? Or is that technique not detailed in the 1953 textbook you read?

I'm sorry your hero fell fan boy, but if you read the entire exchange and had code monkey explain it to you slow...you might sort of get it.

And fan boy? What a thinly veiled expression of jealousy... but totally understandable.
Ummmm, if you truly believe "slow" to be an accurate adjective for Rourke then clearly, critical thinking is the guest that's not showing up for this pool party... despite repeated invites.

If you have anything intelligent to say on this topic, I'd LOVE to hear it.

I think if nothing else, you've proven beyond all doubt that your auditory skills require an aid, perhaps two.

As for you kicking anyones nads...stick to the baby pool where you're safe.
The New And Improved King Nadkicker,
Professor T

Call yourself nadkicker all you want...
I'll just be cheering for the other team ok?
Yeah, the one over there in the baby pool making all the sense.
Feel free to join us anytime - the water's warm...

 

[Anansi]

Guys this is forum about tarantulas...Come back down to earth...This has turned into some democrat/ republican *edit*....

 

[Code Monkey]

Full disclosure...

Of course they feel pain. The question isn't "do they feel pain?", it's "how do they feel about feeling pain?".

I think this sums up the crux of the debate with a bit more humor than this bunch of horse apples.

This is from a thread 2 years ago on this board where I actually make some of the same sort of arguments Professor T does, although not to the same extremity and without the obtuseness. I do, however, have to admit to falling back on the "we just don't know" platform as part of my counterargument (unfortunately biased in that I was arguing with someone I didn't much care for personally - bad monkey, no banana for you ). However, and here's where I have found myself questioning his qualifications, this was prior to taking two separate 6000 level courses related to invert physiology and neurobiology along with some fantastic courses on invert behavior which overlap the neurobiology. After these courses, reading primary literature, carrying out neurophysiology labs where we measured and observed nerve actions in vivo, and hours of discussions with some people who know more about the invert nervous system than clearly all of us on this board put together, I know as closely as you can know something in science that these organisms do not possess anything that would allow them have the psychological capacity to feel pain in the way I have defined 'feel' for the purposes of this debate.

Professor T may be a zoologist, he may even be a professor, but he's not close to the caliber of professors I've had the pleasure of studying under these past couple of years when it comes to issues of neurobiology and behavior. Furthermore, something that Rourke hits upon in his (admittedly barbing) post is the inability to keep up on things once you get out of grad school. Time and time again I hear the faculty lamenting how they can't even keep up on the literature in their particular sliver of the pie, let alone the rest of the science pie. The rate of scientific knowledge is doubling about every 18 months nowadays; if Professor T really did get his PhD before I was born, there's hundreds of times more known today about invert neurobiology than when he was learning it, and if he's been active in zoology, I can tell you what he hasn't been reading up on

 

[Code Monkey]

Guys this is forum about tarantulas...Come back down to earth...This has turned into some democrat/ republican *edit*....

The rest of the forum, yes, this thread, however, left orbit some time ago ;P

 

[maxwellxxv]

wow...I am humbled at all the positions people have taken on my origanal post. I was jerked at what the show did with the Ts. and yes i have read all the posting here on this thread. 1st off. i care for my hobby. i was offended by the show. i also made a comment that i could pick apart all the arguments made. but you all did and are doing a fine job of that already. as for being some one to stir up this kind of passion amongst you all.. that was not my attention. I certainly did not mean to offend. i certaionly did not mean to insult anyone. and certainly did not mean for any one think i was just trying to stir up trouble. that was not at all my intention. i was called a troll..now that is insulting..i have never insulted any one here or would..it certainly shows that everyone is passoinate about our hobby.. and after all i read i wish i never posted this original thread at all...and for all who are offended by the simple thought that. i thought the show did wrong .. i am truly sorry.

 

[dtknow]

Not to sure the show has been attacked in his way, but from my view, it is a waste not because of cruelty, but because of the animals used.

I could care less(aside from the lesson it teaches)if they used crickets, mealworms, heck, even rats in these shows. But they are using something else. Did someone go and breed all the G. rosea and avics to the size for the show...nope. They were ripped from the wild(and the numbers must be quite large) just for a laugh and some amusement. While small scale collection to add the occasional new blood to a stock(which eventually wouldn't be needed when the number of CB individuals got large enough)...this is clearly toom uch for slow reproducing T's to bear if it continues...both for the pet trade and shows like this.

 

[Professor T]

Call yourself nadkicker all you want...
I'll just be cheering for the other team ok?
Yeah, the one over there in the baby pool making all the sense.
Feel free to join us anytime - the water's warm...

OK, fan girl you do that

You moderators have a nice little fan club going for each other.

I was correct on this thread, my point was accepted by your ruler code monkey, so I'm not giving the peon moderators the time of day. Code monkey can explain it to you at your next worship service.

 

[Professor T]

1. Pointing out the convoluted nature of your argument, which essentially amounted to a series of non sequiturs. And....

My point was nobody really knows if Ts feel pain, its a hypothesis not a fact. At first code monkey corrected me that it was a fact. Code monkey now admits this is not a fact, so check with him if you need clarification at the next moderators' worship service.

2. Allowing you define, for those parties interested, what might be your qualifications to render an opinion with respect to the scientific method and critical thought.

I agree 100% with the position Ts don't feel pain like you do when I kick your nads with this post, however its just my opinion, not fact.

BUT, apparently you DO have some degree in Zoology, right?

Yes, you catch on fast. I do have a degree in zoology, I hope we can still be friends. I have spent more time in lab both as a student and teacher than you've spent in front of the TV watching Jerry Springer. I've had course work in Sociobiology, Ichthyology, Herpetology, Ornithology, Entomology, Neurobiology, and other big words you don't know the meaning of. And for over two decades I've taught classes in biology, invertebrate zoology, vertebrate zoology, ecology, and wildlife management. You can have code monkey explain the hours of coursework that might entail.

And one final note: King Nadkicker is a title earned and bequeathed. You have certainly not earned it, nor has it been given to you. I'm confident that most here will find your delusional self-anointment pompous and offensive.

ROTFLMAO, A PhD, a MS, and a BS are titles earned and bequeathed. King Nadkicker is a tongue in cheek invention of code monkey that is entertaining, and keeps this board interesting. The day code monkey needs you to defend him on any topic, is the day he should kill himself.

God of Freaking Thunder,
Professor T

Did I earn that title or just type it?

 

[Professor T]

Now, maybe I'm being too kind, maybe P_T really is a bit of a radical in science and he actually holds out hope that tarantulas are the octopi of the arachnid world, and, quite openly, he could be right, but so far everything points to him being wrong.

In the interest of accuracy lets not claim I said anything I didn't. I never said Ts can feel pain. I never said I believed they could.

In a post to somebody else, I said nobody really knows if Ts can feel pain. You corrected me by saying, "Actually they do".

I was making the point my statement was 100% accurate. I believe exactly what you believe on this topic, but I understand its not fact, and so do you.

but for now I feel equally confident in claiming they can't feel pain as I do claiming they can't learn to hold a pencil and write in English (something else never proven with the scientific method that they cannot do ;P).

I agree 100%. I think you should be pretty confident about your claim that they can't feel pain like you do, because ALL the science points to that.

 

[Rourke]

Excellent. Things are clearing up nicely here. Code Monkey was right all along; tarantulas can't feel pain; the Perfessor has spent more time in the lab than I have spent doing.....ummm....something I NEVER do; and he isn't even really a perfessor. He earned a 2 year degree in Zoology from a community college in the 60's, and he has never published any scientific work. This last bit is, of course, not proven fact. Merely a theory based on a significant body of evidence. Thanks for your participation, fanboys and fangirls!

Now.....everyone check your nads...........

 

[Sheri]

The day code monkey needs you to defend him on any topic, is the day he should kill himself.

You can have code monkey explain the hours of coursework that might entail.

Code monkey now admits this is not a fact, so check with him if you need clarification at the next moderators' worship service.

Code monkey can explain it to you at your next worship service.

I'm sorry your hero fell fan boy, but if you read the entire exchange and had code monkey explain it to you slow...you might sort of get it.

Just wondering, maybe, if you should minister the next service...