CYST Severity??

[Ultum4Spiderz]

I agree with you Shell(ey?); I actually went through a similar situation with a sick moray last year; I called every vet in the area, and despite having one of the best veterinary schools in the area, I couldn't find anyone willing to help me. I agree that it's a long shot; that said, it's not impossible either.

Failing surgical intervention, OP needs to stop feeding/disturbing the T... I understand it's also a long shot, but perhaps she can molt out on her own. I've got my fingers crossed.

I tried to feeding cuz the seller suggested it... she is refusing food.. so I will ignore & not disturb the T for a while & hope less stress helps out on the molt
surgery seems quite risky though... the cyst is on the smaller side.. Rob C's Zilla had a way bigger cyst

 

[Comatose]

surgery seems quite risky though... the cyst is on the smaller side.. Rob C's Zilla had a way bigger cyst

Then leave it. You've removed all the prey items then, right? Don't add any more for at least a month; after that you should re evaluate based on the size of the cyst, molt stage, and the overall outward appearance of the spider (my opinion).

 

[Shell]

I agree with you Shell(ey?); I actually went through a similar situation with a sick moray last year; I called every vet in the area, and despite having one of the best veterinary schools in the area, I couldn't find anyone willing to help me. I agree that it's a long shot; that said, it's not impossible either.

Failing surgical intervention, OP needs to stop feeding/disturbing the T... I understand it's also a long shot, but perhaps she can molt out on her own. I've got my fingers crossed.


Edit - And just one last thing; I hope I'm not coming off as giving the OP false hope or anything; it would just be great if, even if the spider dies, we could learn more about this disease/syndrome/whatever it is. One of the things that keeps bringing me back to the bug hobby is the desire to expand scientific knowledge; you don't see nearly as much of that with fish or reptiles.

Yes, Shelley it is.

I agree with your reasoning, it would be great if we could somehow learn what these growths are and if there is any way to deal with them. I know that if I had a spider with something like this, I would let my exotic vet do whatever he wanted to try and learn more, he said he would always be willing, just doubts what could be done/learned from it. There is no harm in attempting to learn more, aside from of course, it could cost the spider it's life. For some of us though, we would be willing to make that sacrifice if we could learn something from it.

 

[Chris_Skeleton]

I don't see what a vet could do that we couldn't? Let alone, If they even knew anything about tarantulas. What extra, by means of first aid, could they offer that we don't know about?

 

[Comatose]

We aren't there. I completely agree with your sentiments that the best resources in terms of T care are right here; if we were GE, we could just fly one of our technicians out there to lend a skilled hand. Obviously, we don't have those resources and my thinking was that since OP is adverse to performing surgery, perhaps he could find a vet that would. Totally a long shot, but worth a shot given the apparent gravity of the situation. A vet could offer a steady hand, expertise, a surgical environment, or even just a referral to someone in the field that might be able to help. Again, a long shot... I accept that. I'll admit, in a lifetime of keeping all manner of animals, I've turned to vets only in extreme situations... based on the history of Theraphosa & cysts, I'd say this is extreme.

It seems the point is moot now as OP has decided to wait and observe, which is probably a good course of action at this point anyway.

 

[ijmccollum]

We don't even know what these growths actually are, calling them cysts is a guess at best. That would be the closest thing I could think to call them, but I really do wonder what they actually are.

Cyst v hernia, you can't drain a hernia only repair it and I don't see that happening with a T. As for "cyst" that's a d@mn good question.

 

[Shell]

Cyst v hernia, you can't drain a hernia only repair it and I don't see that happening with a T. As for "cyst" that's a d@mn good question.

I'm a vet tech, I am very aware of the differences between a cyst and a hernia, those aren't the only growths that animals can get though. My point was that we really don't know what these growths on tarantulas are, we are calling them cysts, but we don't actually know that. We also don't know if they are the same thing on every spider, they may be but they may not be.

I may be missing something, but has anyone tried draining one on a spider? If they have, then yes, cyst would definitely be my thought, but again they may not be the same on every spider. Also many tumors and benign masses contain fluids that can be drained, but that doesn't get rid of them. Also, typically just draining a cyst doesn't get rid of it, they will usually come back if not properly removed/repaired.

I didn't mean to sound defensive or nasty, I hope it didn't come across that way. Just saying, I would be very interested to see if we can figure out what these growths actually are, instead of us just guessing.

 

[Comatose]

I'm a vet tech, I am very aware of the differences between a cyst and a hernia, those aren't the only growths that animals can get though. My point was that we really don't know what these growths on tarantulas are, we are calling them cysts, but we don't actually know that. We also don't know if they are the same thing on every spider, they may be but they may not be.

I may be missing something, but has anyone tried draining one on a spider? If they have, then yes, cyst would definitely be my thought, but again they may not be the same on every spider. Also many tumors and benign masses contain fluids that can be drained, but that doesn't get rid of them. Also, typically just draining a cyst doesn't get rid of it, they will usually come back if not properly removed/repaired.

I didn't mean to sound defensive or nasty, I hope it didn't come across that way. Just saying, I would be very interested to see if we can figure out what these growths actually are, instead of us just guessing.

This was a little earlier in the thread, though I'm not clear on whether is was an actual cyst, or something that formed as a result of a wound. Regardless, he successfully lanced it, drained it and sealed it, and the spider apparently survived.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDXSGyM9ypI&feature=player_embedded

The point as to whether the situation with Theraphosa species is a cyst of some kind or a hernia is a good one, and it would certainly dictate whether draining is a viable option. That said, it appears that if it could be established that it is a cyst, a drain could be performed successfully.

My .02, and while I did clean kennels in high school, that's about the extent of my formal veterinary training

 

[mmfh]

Just curious, if a person was going to try to figure out what one of these growths were and had a willing vet..... Would u get an x-ray or a sonagram ?

 

[Shell]

This was a little earlier in the thread, though I'm not clear on whether is was an actual cyst, or something that formed as a result of a wound. Regardless, he successfully lanced it, drained it and sealed it, and the spider apparently survived.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDXSGyM9ypI&feature=player_embedded

The point as to whether the situation with Theraphosa species is a cyst of some kind or a hernia is a good one, and it would certainly dictate whether draining is a viable option. That said, it appears that if it could be established that it is a cyst, a drain could be performed successfully.

My .02, and while I did clean kennels in high school, that's about the extent of my formal veterinary training

Thanks for sharing, I missed that.

If draining and sealing can "fix" these, I would still be hesitant to actually call them true cysts, at least the kinds I am familiar working with. Typically they need to excised to fully get rid of them. However, these are inverts we are talking about here, not mammals, so a cyst could very well present differently and be treated differently, there is so litle we know about tarantula health.

I find this sort of stuff absolutely fascinating, given my training and profession. We may not have answers right now, but the speculation and attempts made at healing stuff like this are great and will hopefully give us answers one day.

Also, it may not be a cyst OR a hernia. There are many other growths that mammals can get, so while we don't know for sure, I would think it's possible with tarantulas as well. Just an afterthought I had.

 

[Comatose]

Just curious, if a person was going to try to figure out what one of these growths were and had a willing vet..... Would u get an x-ray or a sonagram ?

Another member who lost a T. stirmi (sp?) the same way had an x-ray done... it didn't seem to show much. I'd be curious if a sonagram would do better, or perhaps just a biopsy.

I find this sort of stuff absolutely fascinating, given my training and profession. We may not have answers right now, but the speculation and attempts made at healing stuff like this are great and will hopefully give us answers one day.

I couldn't agree more!

 

[Shell]

Another member who lost a T. stirmi (sp?) the same way had an x-ray done... it didn't seem to show much. I'd be curious if a sonagram would do better, or perhaps just a biopsy.

I really don't think a sonogram would show us much. The xrays really didn't either, although they were pretty cool to see.

I would be VERY curious as to sending samples in for biopsy, that *could* potentially give us some answers...Hmmm, now I want to see if I can get my hands on something like this to send in to the lab we deal with here. I know many people there, and I'm sure they would "humour" me and see what a biopsy had to say.

 

[Comatose]

I would be VERY curious as to sending samples in for biopsy, that *could* potentially give us some answers...Hmmm, now I want to see if I can get my hands on something like this to send in to the lab we deal with here. I know many people there, and I'm sure they would "humour" me and see what a biopsy had to say.

If you could I think that could be pretty huge. Would you be able to get your hands on a specimen?

 

[Shell]

If you could I think that could be pretty huge. Would you be able to get your hands on a specimen?

I don't know, I would imagine we wouldn't be able to ship across borders even if it was a sample/dead specimen, so I would need to see if anyone in Canada has one that would be willing to experiment with us lol. Be pretty cool to see if anything showed up that indicated any kind of known health condition.

 

[Necromion]

Shell I don't know if this is even remotly the same thing but I have a E. truculentus who has a similar growth on the ventral portion of its abdomen. she has molted recently and seems healthy over all but the "bulge" hasn't gone away with the molt, which you can see in the pics. But it is all possible that this could affect more species then just theraphosa.
growth before molt


molt



growth after molt




As you can see it is an obvious bulge or cyst but the T herself is as far as I can tell healthy.

 

[Shell]

That is really interesting thanks for sharing. It looks different then the "cysts" we see in Theraphosa, and sort of reminds me a little bit of a hernia, however if it was a hernia I really can't see the spider making it through the molt with no complications.

Very interesting regardless of what it is though, and just makes me want to investigate even more, these sort of growths in tarantulas.

 

[1hughjazzspider]

Necromion, how thoroughly did you examine it's molt? From the looks of it it was definitely still attached to the molt itself. What did the growth itself feel like in the molt? Now idk much about the anatomy of any animal but the fact that it stayed on the T after the molt leads me to believe that it obviously has to be something internal. Perhaps it could be some form of cancer or tumor possibly???

 

[Necromion]

yeah I've been trying to figure out what it is since I picked up the T, and so far haven't been able to find out anything as to its cause and what not. I have seen bald spots form in this area before but this is a little extreme for just a bald spot.

its possible that it could be a benign tumor or somthing along those lines, and I really dont want to kill an otherwise healthy animal to discover the cause.

 

[Formerphobe]

...differences between a cyst and a hernia, those aren't the only growths that animals can get though. My point was that we really don't know what these growths on tarantulas are, we are calling them cysts, but we don't actually know that. We also don't know if they are the same thing on every spider, they may be but they may not be.

I may be missing something, but has anyone tried draining one on a spider? If they have, then yes, cyst would definitely be my thought, but again they may not be the same on every spider. Also many tumors and benign masses contain fluids that can be drained, but that doesn't get rid of them. Also, typically just draining a cyst doesn't get rid of it, they will usually come back if not properly removed/repaired.

Bingo! These 'lesions' are very likely different things on different individuals.

The photos Joe posted of his boehmei(?) appeared to be a defect in the developing exoskeleton, so that when she molted her entrails herniated through the defect.
When I dissected the rosea I had with the 'cyst' at her pedicle, the fluid filled lesion communicated to the abdominal cavity, but did not have an encapsulating wall, nor did it seem to be attached to any organs. In a mammal, I would have described it as a seroma, which generally arises as a result of an injury.

As of ~2006, there was no documentation of cancers in tarantulas, but that doesn't mean it doesn't occur. "(Frye 1992)...illustration of a possible neoplasm may be a melanization reaction to an injury or infection." (Invertebrate Medicine, Gregory Lewbart; Chapter 10 'Spiders', Romain Pizzi; pg 160)

Radiographs have not proven very beneficial in tarantulas.

There are veterinarians out there who practice spider medicine, limited as it is due to the nature of the patients. They do tend to be few and far between, and the majority seem to be in Europe. Last I communicated with him, Dr. Romain Pizzi, of the Royal Zoological Society, was working on updating his spider chapter for the new edition of Invertebrate Medicine. If that tome has been published, it may yield some info.

When sending something for pathology, the pathologist needs to be well-versed in what they are looking at or for. The average veterinary pathologist would be generally clueless, though they could identify bacteria, fungi, etc.

 

[Ultum4Spiderz]

yeah I've been trying to figure out what it is since I picked up the T, and so far haven't been able to find out anything as to its cause and what not. I have seen bald spots form in this area before but this is a little extreme for just a bald spot.

its possible that it could be a benign tumor or somthing along those lines, and I really dont want to kill an otherwise healthy animal to discover the cause.

Very interesting.. I sure hope my Ts got a chance of surviving this molt... I hate watching my Ts die..
the survival rate of T stirmis with cysts is too low though though it hasnt been documented much.. except by Rob C & a few others