Costa Rica, Monteverde & Santa Elena Cloud Forest

[Justyn]

Yes, I've been published worldwide in respected magazines and journals, and you have (posted a few threads online)?

I really have nothing to say other than I already have. I'm not trying to hack into your "credentials" as a quick search on the internet brings up the tons of information on your reputation as it is.

My only problem is with your psuedoscientific reasoning and bad methodology all the while calling yourself a respected scientist.

I think I made my point already.

 

[Zelli]

Awesome pics! So how deep was the burrow? How was it oriented?

 

[UrbanJungles]

Yes, I've been published worldwide in respected magazines and journals, and you have (posted a few threads online)?

You can find my articles in these magazine issues specifically...

Then there's my FEATURE article in Reptiles Magazine...centerfold and all...

(Internationally)

2 articles in AZA comminique (2004 & 2006)

2 articles for NJ Audobon Society Magazine

"Wood Turtles in NJ" and "Return of the Timber Rattlesnake to Northern NJ"

And in Books...

(Pictures & referenced materials)

"Field Guide to Reptiles & Amphibians of New Jersey by Schwartz & Golden
(Picture and range contributions)

Kaleidoscopic treeboas (1996) by Robert Henderson
(referenced)

Neotropical Treeboas (2002) by Robert Hendrson
(referenced)

Plus numerous newspaper articles and TV appearances, you could even have caught my 1/2 hr national radio show on Radio Disney a couple of weeks ago.

Now, You were saying...?

 

[Justyn]

So what's the issue? A difference of opinions?

You can find my articles in these magazine issues specifically...

Then there's my FEATURE article in Reptiles Magazine...centerfold and all...

(Internationally)

2 articles in AZA comminique (2004 & 2006)

2 articles for NJ Audobon Society Magazine

"Wood Turtles in NJ" and "Return of the Timber Rattlesnake to Northern NJ"

And in Books...

(Pictures & referenced materials)

"Field Guide to Reptiles & Amphibians of New Jersey by Schwartz & Golden
(Picture and range contributions)

Kaleidoscopic treeboas (1996) by Robert Henderson
(referenced)

Neotropical Treeboas (2002) by Robert Hendrson
(referenced)

Plus numerous newspaper articles and TV appearances, you could even have caught my 1/2 hr national radio show on Radio Disney a couple of weeks ago.

Now, You were saying...?

 

[UrbanJungles]

So what's the issue? A difference of opinions?

See my previous post.

 

[Stylopidae]

I really have nothing to say other than I already have. I'm not trying to hack into your "credentials" as a quick search on the internet brings up the tons of information on your reputation as it is.

My only problem is with your psuedoscientific reasoning and bad methodology all the while calling yourself a respected scientist.

I think I made my point already.

Dude...seriously. Drop. It.

You have gone far beyond the point where I can consider you to be an objective voice in this conversation or really even a serious scientist for that matter. This two sided pissing contest is laughable and neither of you are coming off as particularly well informed.

1.) Although this is a rare species in captivity, Justyn commented that they are quite numerous in the area where he was. Even if this female was captured by a predator shortly after release, there would most likely be little to no environmental damage done. He mentioned the area was on private land with permission from the landowner, so nothing illegal was done here. It would be the same thing as Cacoseraph digging up a trapdoor spider somewhere in California.

2.) If he didn't fill the land around the burrow back in, you'd definitely have a valid point. If he did fill that land back in, then there would be no real environmental damage done.

3.) The specimens he mentioned keeping in captivity were only kept there temporarily and were from the same locale (at least, that's what I got from Miller's post). Assuming Justyn has good information on the population of this particular species in the area, there's no fault here. Animals are frequently released back into the wild from rehabilitation programs...and if they never left the country and didn't have any chance to be exposed to non-native pathogens then the only risk of them being released back into the wild is to the actual specimen...being eaten. Something similar would be if one of the Texans captured an Aphonopelma sp. immature male in their backyard and then released it in that same yard once it matured.

4.) The way you have handled yourself in this thread is giving me genuine doubts as to your scientific background.

I'm not going to ascribe to the 'Argument from Authority' fallacy <crap> that both you and Miller are trying to throw around at each other because I've only been on one feild expedition. One. And I've read a lot of papers, but that's besides the point.

This was sometime in 2005 for a marine biology class during a feild trip to Florida during spring break. We were dredging the seafloor about three or so miles from the coast...I don't remember where exactly.

Do you want to know how many specimens we euthanized and preserved?

I really don't know...but the number was easily in the hundreds...the multiple hundreds.

In *real* scientific expeditions it is a common occurrance for hundreds of specimens to be euthanized in the feild and sent back for further study. A zookeeper friend of mine mentioned one study by Yale that involved about 200 birds being euthanized and sent back to the museum for study. I have read papers where people studying exceptionally isolated areas will send back thousands of specimens from that area. The way they capture specimens from the seafloor causes a hell of a lot more environmental damage than the single hole Miller dug.

As Reynolds pointed out earlier, the way the very spiders you and I keep are captured from the wild also causes a great amount of environmental damage. Since both you and I try to breed tarantulas in captivity, this is easily forgiveable because we try to keep the hobby's focus off of wild caught specimens. It's still worth re-iterating.

You're getting on Miller for digging up one tarantula burrow and displacing representitaves of a somewhat common tarantula species (again...assuming Miller has good information on this land) on private, non protected land with permission to do so from the owner of the land. The only issue with this would be if this species was protected (other than by closed borders) and I can fully admit my ignorance in this area. As mentioned earlier, Miller said the species was common on this land and if this tarantula did happen to be a protected species then just having that species confirmed on this land would be more than enough to get that land legally protected from further encroachments. Well worth one excavated burrow.

Now, granted...he's coming off as a wee bit grandiose (you are, too...and pissing me off in doing so). I can certianly understand your frustration there because half the idiots who post here on AB think a bare assertion is a valid line of logic and don't really care if they sound half retarded.

However, you have managed to fit right into this mould because you're trying to show off your authority (popular publications hardly qualify you as an expert to me, BTW. If you show me an ecological survey written by you that appeared in a peer-reviewed journal, I might pipe down a little bit.) while at the same time getting upset over something that would be trivial in the course of real scientific research.

If the real issue to you is a supposed scammer (who is currently trying to clear his name...we'll see how that works out) trying to come off as a *real* scientist, then you should have the stones to come out and say that. I haven't fully researched and read Miller's work, so I'll wait to pass judgement. This would be my only issue with Miller's actions and even those actions are eclipsed by yours.

I mean...seriously. The most actual experience I have with research is the one expedition in Florida, some random feild ecology in my area, some of my pictures possibly being used in an issue of Invertebrates Magazine (wasp keeping article currently being written by someone else) and well over 2,000 pages of peer reviewed literature read last year...maybe 200 pages of it being feild ecology surveys.

That's my entire experience, so tear into me if you want for pointing out something which should be obvious to anyone who has any experience with feild studies at all...but I'm going to tell you right now that right now the only thing you've really been able to do to stick up for your position and your credibility is an argument from authority. By keeping this thread going over five god-damn pages over one dug up burrow, any attempt to impress me is going to be a hell of an uphill battle.

 

[Justyn]

Danny, I understand your concerns about digging up a tarantula's burrow. I do however think you've taken it a bit too far here and maybe made it a bit too personal. I posted photos I thought the community might be interested in. I should not have to explain every possible scenario on why I dug up the burrow. Clearly I'm not digging up burrows in wholesale quantity and causing damage to the species or the environment. I'm not new at this, I've been involved in the invertebrate community for years.

If you really feel this deep concern on protecting tarantulas in thier native habitat perhaps you should do something there, something in regards to educating the native people of the community on tarantulas, maybe make their home dwellings more "tarantula friendly." Buy some land, something.

Obviously, like you, I have theraposids in the best interest and do not feel like I need to be bullied by you or anyone else about this issue. One of the first things you asked in a not so polite manner was if I dug these tarantulas up in a protected habitat. It's not something normally asked when someone posts here, so I am guessing you were starting to paint me in a negative light. On top of that you have made numerous attempts to discredit my knowledge by giving references to unrelated factors. This only solidifies my opinion that you were attacking me in an effort to make yourself look superior. Now please, if you feel the need to say something worthwhile on this thread, please do so. Otherwise, please refrain from making your response public, e-mail me instead if you have any issues. I don't think anyone wants to wade through a pile of posts that have little to do with the orginally posted photos.

See my previous post.

 

[UrbanJungles]

Chesh, to be honest, I skimmed your post but I generally agree with you. I just see someone making themselves out to be something they aren't and I have a hard time letting them get away with it. In the process I've managed to drag myself through the mud...and it's totally not worth it. For the record, I never claimed to me anything in this thread...just a BS sniffer.

I'm done for good...really.

 

[Justyn]

I do agree that perhaps I do come across as a bit arrogant, my wife says the same thing. This is not my intent, I'm just a bit too forward, and I do get upset and defensive when someone is attacking me without a logical reason.

As for my research concerning this species, sadly it is not anything that would have been compiled into a massive document of intensive study, but rather a "semi-popular" article concerning this species, it's natural history, etc. Maybe the future will allow me to do more serious work with this species in the wild.

Dude...seriously. Drop. It.

You have gone far beyond the point where I can consider you to be an objective voice in this conversation or really even a serious scientist for that matter. This two sided pissing contest is laughable and neither of you are coming off as particularly well informed.

1.) Although this is a rare species in captivity, Justyn commented that they are quite numerous in the area where he was. Even if this female was captured by a predator shortly after release, there would most likely be little to no environmental damage done. He mentioned the area was on private land with permission from the landowner, so nothing illegal was done here. It would be the same thing as Cacoseraph digging up a trapdoor spider somewhere in California.

2.) If he didn't fill the land around the burrow back in, you'd definitely have a valid point. If he did fill that land back in, then there would be no real environmental damage done.

3.) The specimens he mentioned keeping in captivity were only kept there temporarily and were from the same locale (at least, that's what I got from Miller's post). Assuming Justyn has good information on the population of this particular species in the area, there's no fault here. Animals are frequently released back into the wild from rehabilitation programs...and if they never left the country and didn't have any chance to be exposed to non-native pathogens then the only risk of them being released back into the wild is to the actual specimen...being eaten. Something similar would be if one of the Texans captured an Aphonopelma sp. immature male in their backyard and then released it in that same yard once it matured.

4.) The way you have handled yourself in this thread is giving me genuine doubts as to your scientific background.

I'm not going to ascribe to the 'Argument from Authority' fallacy <crap> that both you and Miller are trying to throw around at each other because I've only been on one feild expedition. One. And I've read a lot of papers, but that's besides the point.

This was sometime in 2005 for a marine biology class during a feild trip to Florida during spring break. We were dredging the seafloor about three or so miles from the coast...I don't remember where exactly.

Do you want to know how many specimens we euthanized and preserved?

I really don't know...but the number was easily in the hundreds...the multiple hundreds.

In *real* scientific expeditions it is a common occurrance for hundreds of specimens to be euthanized in the feild and sent back for further study. A zookeeper friend of mine mentioned one study by Yale that involved about 200 birds being euthanized and sent back to the museum for study. I have read papers where people studying exceptionally isolated areas will send back thousands of specimens from that area. The way they capture specimens from the seafloor causes a hell of a lot more environmental damage than the single hole Miller dug.

As Reynolds pointed out earlier, the way the very spiders you and I keep are captured from the wild also causes a great amount of environmental damage. Since both you and I try to breed tarantulas in captivity, this is easily forgiveable because we try to keep the hobby's focus off of wild caught specimens. It's still worth re-iterating.

You're getting on Miller for digging up one tarantula burrow and displacing representitaves of a somewhat common tarantula species (again...assuming Miller has good information on this land) on private, non protected land with permission to do so from the owner of the land. The only issue with this would be if this species was protected (other than by closed borders) and I can fully admit my ignorance in this area. As mentioned earlier, Miller said the species was common on this land and if this tarantula did happen to be a protected species then just having that species confirmed on this land would be more than enough to get that land legally protected from further encroachments. Well worth one excavated burrow.

Now, granted...he's coming off as a wee bit grandiose (you are, too...and pissing me off in doing so). I can certianly understand your frustration there because half the idiots who post here on AB think a bare assertion is a valid line of logic and don't really care if they sound half retarded.

However, you have managed to fit right into this mould because you're trying to show off your authority (popular publications hardly qualify you as an expert to me, BTW. If you show me an ecological survey written by you that appeared in a peer-reviewed journal, I might pipe down a little bit.) while at the same time getting upset over something that would be trivial in the course of real scientific research.

If the real issue to you is a supposed scammer (who is currently trying to clear his name...we'll see how that works out) trying to come off as a *real* scientist, then you should have the stones to come out and say that. I haven't fully researched and read Miller's work, so I'll wait to pass judgement. This would be my only issue with Miller's actions and even those actions are eclipsed by yours.

I mean...seriously. The most actual experience I have with research is the one expedition in Florida, some random feild ecology in my area, some of my pictures possibly being used in an issue of Invertebrates Magazine (wasp keeping article currently being written by someone else) and well over 2,000 pages of peer reviewed literature read last year...maybe 200 pages of it being feild ecology surveys.

That's my entire experience, so tear into me if you want for pointing out something which should be obvious to anyone who has any experience with feild studies at all...but I'm going to tell you right now that right now the only thing you've really been able to do to stick up for your position and your credibility is an argument from authority. By keeping this thread going over five god-damn pages over one dug up burrow, any attempt to impress me is going to be a hell of an uphill battle.

 

[Justyn]

The burrow went about 10 inches into the hillside. It then went about 6 inches to the right and to a dead end, and about 2 feet to the left with an enlarged area in which she would molt/produce egg sacks. I was hoping to find a molt, but things like that don't last long in such tropical and moist conditions and it was the "dry" season. Did I mention it got in the 40's at night! We slept in a paperthin cabin not far from this location. We had no idea it would be so cold and came ill-prepared. My wife and myself were lucky enough to find a few blankets. Stayed there for five nights snuggling up as close as we could get to stay warm.

Awesome pics! So how deep was the burrow? How was it oriented?

 

[jonnysebachi]

Nice pics justyn. Dont let the opinions of a few deter you. The more info we have on species in nature the better we can provide for them in captivity. I cut down a small forest on my property and you would have thought the world was ending according to my neighbors. Think of all the damage i did. LOL. and that wasn't for science or anything. Just profit. How many times do kids go out in the woods to make forts or play and tear up habitats without noticing, nature doesn't notice either. You seem to be very concientious and kept the disturbance to a minimum. Well done.

 

[sick4x4]

Think of all the nature doesn't notice either. .

and we wonder why our rain-forests are disappearing and why natural habitats here in the good old US of A are almost neil...bravo