CBB verses CB What do you think?

[JoeRossi]

Well the you commented so I will as well

"Then this is a matter that should have been settled PRIVATELY. Because it looks exactly like one trying to take credit from another. We don't need that in our hobby."

This is 100% a garbage statment. No one is trying to take credit from anyone and all credit has been given credit where credit was due. However, the credit really goes to the Maraca Cabaclas :razz: We definitely do need factual evidence in our hobby and when an individual is inandated with PM's that truly show there is a need to educate Captive Born vs Captive Bred then an educational post to the public is more than adequate. In fact, you yourself argue what is actualy the difference between Captive Born vs Captive Bred and should benefit from this information as well as your definition of captive breeding did not include actual breeding of two tarantulas in captivity. Furthermore, by desertanimals post a distinction between CBB vs CB was an educational experience thus proving its was needed and I thank you for your post. What we don't need is individuals stiring the pot or trying to start a fire where there need not be!

(Link still rocks )

Joe

"Just the facts, ma'am". While "Just the facts, ma'am" has come to be known as Dragnet's catchphrase, it was never actually uttered by Joe Friday"

Then this is a matter that should have been settled PRIVATELY. Because it looks exactly like one trying to take credit from another. We don't need that in our hobby.





Then why even post here, if you can just use your own opinion?



Again.. why the public thread about it?

-Sean

 

[Bill S]

Hypo speaking...can you sate you get more excited when it is the 1st time you have got an egg sac from a particular specie? Well, I think all of us can Bill

Your point is well taken, but actually, there's currently a species I'm hoping to get another egg sac from that I've bred more than once before. And I'd be at least as excited this time as I was the first time - maybe even moreso.

Hypo speaking...

Funny you should choose this phrase at this time. One of my first real excitements in captive breeding (of reptiles) was producing the first hypomelanistic diamondback. The same pair of adults produced several more hypos, and each time it was exciting.

 

[ShadowBlade]

No, nothing new was learned from this, as you're not addressing my point.

The point is that there is no significant difference between captive bred and born and captive born.. The parents can still be WC, so THE ONLY reason to quabble over who gets to use which word 'first' is about the bragging rights. "oh, he beat me to captive born, so I'm gonna make it CLEAR that I can say these are the first captive bred AND born".

If it wasn't, then why make a PUBLIC THREAD about this? Clearly neither of you want to give any leeway on this, so there isn't even a discussion. You might as well published this as an article. The words themselves could have been discussed, not an actual story.

If you honestly think this is about me not understanding whether or not something mated in captivity vs. mating in the wild, you're sorely mistaken. Do you think if we whine enough, people won't actually just be able to use the words "CB spiderlings" anymore? We'll have to clarify whether the parents bumped uglies in a cage or not... Is that what we're after, really? :?

I'm glad this was brought up, though, because I've always assumed CB around here meant CBB, as it often does mean the same thing because people don't go to the trouble of using CBB once there's an established captive breeding population. But that's just my experience in the cornsnake world. Now I'll know to inquire in the arachnoculture world, and to inquire about the parents, too, as I'd personally rather buy animals that are CBB and whose parents and grandparents were too. I understand that WC animals are necessary to get various species established in arachnoculture, but I have no particular desire to monetarily support the removal of animals from the wild if there are already established long-time captive lines to be found.

Okay, wait, don't you mean you'd rather find out that the spiderlings were CB, not CBB? You realize CBB means both parents were removed from the wild, CB means just the mother.. why is CBB better?


-Sean

 

[xhexdx]

CBB doesn't mean both parents were removed from the wild, at all.

If someone claims they have the first CBB spiderlings, then maybe. I suppose it depends on the species.

Let's use M. balfouri as an example. To my knowledge, we're still waiting for a successful breeding in the States. However, just about every balfouri we have here was produced in Europe and imported. None of them are WC. Even so, the first successful breeding here would make them the first CBB in the States.

To me, there's a big difference between CB and CBB, especially when it's a species that is extremely difficult to pair. Is there a difference in the spiderlings themselves? Of course not. Yes, it's bragging rights, and well-deserved, imo.

(Until I read this thread, I thought Talon's were CBB - am I the only one who was under that impression?)

 

[NikiP]

I think there is some great importance to the meanings besides bragging right.

Announcing that someone was the first to do something helps establish who has first hand experience with something. Obiviously someone wanting to breed a newer species will want to go to someone who has produced CBB slings. Why would they go to someone who only has CB?

However, once they get to the point of having an eggsac, they may want to contact both someone who has has CBB and CB, maybe to see if they've done the same thing, did one have more losses, etc.

Heck, the person who has done CB may even want to know who has CBB to compare notes or even get tips if they decide to breed them.

 

[JoeRossi]

I concur

Well stated & I concur Joe. To the credit of Steve(Talon) he has always been forthright and has stated from the begining that his breeding attempt was unsucessful and he was given a gravid wild caught that gave him the first captive born M.C.'s. I aquired a few females and 1 male that all molted 2times in my care and captive bred them. P.S. Joe I have an egg sac From your boy. I don't want to jinks it, but it looks very tiny....I am hoping there is fertility in there.

To the comment Shadow made of, "No, nothing new was learned from this, as you're not addressing my point." The point was addressed several times you just are unwiling to understand/accept that there is a diference between captive born and captive bred and still want to argue when everyone else thus far is on the same page.

Bill, good luck with breeding that specie again and it is always exciting. The albino gene is truly amazing as well...I remeber when Kahl and Sharp brought in the first albino columbians's man was that a break through as they are still my favorite specie.

 

[kaydyn1512]

(Until I read this thread, I thought Talon's were CBB - am I the only one who was under that impression?)

No Joe. That's part of the reason I started this thread. I put up my ad stating that I had sling from the first successful CBB and I got buraged by people who knew of Talons slings stating I was wrong.

 

[Bill S]

The point is that there is no significant difference between captive bred and born and captive born

As far as the offspring - you are correct. (Well, captive hatched babies from wild caught adults might be more genetically diverse - so there's a point in that direction.) But the real difference between captive breeding versus just captive hatching is the skill levels of the keepers. Despite someone above trying to oversimplify the process as just witnessing the male fertilizing the female, there sometimes are special conditions that need to be worked out to get some species to breed in captivity. I'll respect a keeper who raises a bunch of babies, but I'll grant more respect to a keeper who has done it through two generations. Credit goes to whom credit is due.

---------- Post added at 09:40 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:30 AM ----------

No, nothing new was learned from this, as you're not addressing my point.

The point is that there is no significant difference between captive bred and born and captive born.. The parents can still be WC, so THE ONLY reason to quabble over who gets to use which word 'first' is about the bragging rights. "oh, he beat me to captive born, so I'm gonna make it CLEAR that I can say these are the first captive bred AND born".

You seem determined to miss the point of this discussion. There are possibly subtle differences in the offspring in captive broods vs captive hatched wild broods (genetic diversity), and there are different skill levels in hatching out an egg sac from a wild caught spider and carrying that through to another generation. And when someone attacks you (as happened to the OP) because you used the correct terms and differentiated the meanings, you have every right to "go public" to debate and clarify the issue.

 

[BrettG]

CBB doesn't mean both parents were removed from the wild, at all.

If someone claims they have the first CBB spiderlings, then maybe. I suppose it depends on the species.

Let's use M. balfouri as an example. To my knowledge, we're still waiting for a successful breeding in the States. However, just about every balfouri we have here was produced in Europe and imported. None of them are WC. Even so, the first successful breeding here would make them the first CBB in the States.

To me, there's a big difference between CB and CBB, especially when it's a species that is extremely difficult to pair. Is there a difference in the spiderlings themselves? Of course not. Yes, it's bragging rights, and well-deserved, imo.

(Until I read this thread, I thought Talon's were CBB - am I the only one who was under that impression?)

I have had a member offer me CBB balfouri in the recent past..PM me if you would like more info....As far as the rest of this thread,honestly,who cares. Isn't the point just getting more into the hobby through legal methods?It seems like it turns into a 'measuring contest" when it comes to this topic.No offense to anyone.

 

[kaydyn1512]

Originally posted by Bill S

You seem determined to miss the point of this discussion. There are possibly subtle differences in the offspring in captive broods vs captive hatched wild broods (genetic diversity), and there are different skill levels in hatching out an egg sac from a wild caught spider and carrying that through to another generation. And when someone attacks you (as happened to the OP) because you used the correct terms and differentiated the meanings, you have every right to "go public" to debate and clarify the issue.[/QUOTE]

Thank you Bill. I appreciate that very much!!

 

[JoeRossi]

Bill & Brett

Bill:

"The point is that there is no significant difference between captive bred and born and captive born"

So there is no missunderstanding this was a quote from Shadow and not my words should have been in quotes. I disagree with this statement from Shadow and agree with you and xhexdx (Joe)there is a difference between the two and it should be addressed. Especially with this specie as the female was beyond agressive toward the male I made sure I had warmer temperatures, good humidity, and an igloo hide for the female. I took the male away from one female who looked not interested and then made sure the environment was quiet and at night. It was not as easy as just sticking together like my chaco's who cohabed for quite some time. Therefore, contrary to some individual opinions I do feel there is work in breeding with certain specimens. There is still a ton of work of incubating as well and hatching them out and this is also a fact. However, I do feel with some specie there is more work envolved with breeding and feel most if not all breeders would concur. Its like getting an ice cream cone on a hot day making sure it does not melt and eating it vs making the ice cream yourself then following the other steps (flawed example, but you get the point).

Brett: No offense taken, but If you feel there is no need and don't think the thread needs to be here then why would you even comment or post on the thread. It is obvious it has helped at least one individual (desertanimal) understand diferences between the two and there is some good discussion going on....right there is the door ....don't let it hit you on the way out.

 

[ShadowBlade]

Of course there's work to be done in breeding species, and there's a forum for that. This was about getting your story out. Whether YOU or the OP intended it that way.

And when someone attacks you (as happened to the OP) because you used the correct terms and differentiated the meanings, you have every right to "go public" to debate and clarify the issue.

No you don't, its called whining, and it isn't very professional. You solve the issue privately, no need to go waving the banner about it. "Look at this everyone, someone doesn't want to give credit where its due".

There is nothing to be said about this other then who gets the credit. If it was about breeding advice, you would have posted about what you had to do to get them to breed.

Yes, sir, you are the authoritative figure on captive breeding this species, I will not argue that. But if we wanted every first breeder to post the difficulty they had in getting 'credit' for their 'first captive bred and born' spiders, this place would get real boring. We care about the spiders, and how you got them to breed. Try posting those 'stories' instead.

-Sean

 

[RedDragonfly]

Clarification of terms isn't whining

I tend not to post on AB because my primary hobby is dart frog. In that hobby, we clarify between wild-caught and captive-bred, and to add another wrinkle farm raised. We even note generations from wild caught. The first generation being F1. F2 is first generation from a part of F1. Multiple breeders could have F1, by definition. But someone would be first to have F1. You certainly could not call a clutch of eggs taken from the wild when raised in captivity captive bred. That is as close to a wild t brought in gravid as is possible with a dart frog.

When someone is inundated with pms saying that they are wrong about something which happened to the OP, what was tried to be resolved privately may need to become public. It seems to me many in a forum may gossip and contribute to misinformation. 6 posts as Shadowblade has made could be considered significant, when saying it's about bragging or unprofessional and whining on the OP and the breeder's parts.
The first breeder to take a sac from a wild caught gravid female did a great job and gets that credit.

 

[JoeRossi]

Agreed and to the point....

Agreed and to the point of what I believe was the intention of Cori's post. Not for credit, but to educate those who may not have the full understanding of 1. How the M.C.'s were actully produced bolth instances. 2. The full understanding & differences between Captive born and Captive bred.

"Of course there's work to be done in breeding species, and there's a forum for that. This was about getting your story out"

The only one I feel your now arguing with is yourself as all others seem to be in agreement.

1. This was not just about getting the story out (There is already a breeding report for that).

2. There is a forum which we are on called tarantula discussion and we are discussing the 2 issues again I just spoke of: 1. How the M.C.'s were actully produced bolth instances. 2. The full understanding & differences between Captive born and Captive bred. Fact: This is the forum to do so.

However, I do agree with your statement, "Of course there's work to be done in breeding species" .

 

[campj]

The point is that there is no significant difference between captive bred and born and captive born..

Until you run into a spider that won't breed in captivity... WC will drop sacs all day because they procreated in the wild, but getting the species established without collecting becomes impossible.

Congrats on the successful breeding!

 

[Bill S]

Bill:

So there is no missunderstanding this was a quote from Shadow and not my words

Sorry for the misquote, thanks for catching it. I've corrected my post.

 

[KnightinGale]

Congrats on the successful sac! I agree with Bill S in that if something is not widely understood, then getting up here to clarify and/or discuss it is fine. Otherwise the OP would continue having to reply to private message after private message saying the same thing over and over again, and there would still be people with misinformation because they never bothered to send a message in the first place. I think we ALL agree that anytime a viable sac is successfully produced in our homes, it is an incredibly cool thing. Lots of people post here when it happens just to announce it and when they do everyone is very happy for them. This thread had the additional benefit of clarifying that this new sac is not Steve's and the differences between how the two came about. It also reminds us all to be more concientious about whether we mean CB or CBB when we speak of tarantulas. Many people use CB when they mean the other. Good stuff.
To elaborate a little on Steve's (TalonAWD's) experience as well, he actively sought out this species and bought a batch hoping to have a breeding pair. He did work to give the spiders the appropriate environment, circumstances and unobtrusive lighting when he attempted to pair them. He gave the pairing a couple tries before he lost the male to the female (as she apparently was gravid already.) He did get very lucky with that gravid female, but he wasn't just lucky. If you search Maraca cabocla here, you should find anything he has to say on them and he has much of his experience with them documented on his Youtube page, which is linked in his signature. (Also, the above was not to take anything away from this new breeding. Just clarifying again, as some people seemed confused about exactly what happened.)
I am now going to go read this breeding report. This is a great little tarantula and I am happy to see it getting recognition and getting out there. Congrats again on the sac. Nice work!

 

[desertanimal]

Okay, wait, don't you mean you'd rather find out that the spiderlings were CB, not CBB? You realize CBB means both parents were removed from the wild, CB means just the mother.. why is CBB better?

As xhexdx pointed out, CBB does not necessarily mean that, but as you'll note from my original post, quoted below for your convenience, I am quite clear about what it does necessarily mean, and that my interest is in buying animals from long-time captive lineages when they are available, and that I will do the additional inquiring necessary to determine whether or not that's the case.

. . . I'd personally rather buy animals that are CBB and whose parents and grandparents were too.

Bill:
It is obvious it has helped at least one individual (desertanimal) understand diferences between the two and there is some good discussion going on....right there is the door ....don't let it hit you on the way out.

Just to be clear, I've always understood the difference, but didn't necessarily understand the degree of precision to which the terms are commonly used in arachnoculture. Because, as noted by KnightinGale,

Many people use CB when they mean the other.

,

and as revealed by ShadowBlade, if you buy animals listed as CB assuming that what the seller really means is CBB, you may be wrong. This thread has not clarified the difference between the two terms for me--I was up to speed there--but has made me realize that my assumptions about what people "really mean" when they use "CB" may be unfounded, and that I need to be asking questions about the lineages of my purchases in order to be sure I'm getting what I think I'm getting.

 

[JoeRossi]

Well stated....

Very well stated KnightinGale and I could not agree more. Steve did a great job with documentation and information on the specie itself and his hatching. They are in fact one of my favorites and if you need further pictures feel free to pm me and I will do my best. It is always apreciated when others see the beauty in such an amazing specimen and hope you enjoy the breeding report (brief, yet to the point, with some great pictures in my opinion) .


Desertanimal you state, "This thread has not clarified the difference between the two terms for me--I was up to speed there--but has made me realize that my assumptions about what people "really mean" when they use "CB" may be unfounded, and that I need to be asking questions about the lineages of my purchases in order to be sure I'm getting what I think I'm getting."

Thanks for the clarification and it still sounds that again you have gained some valuable information from the thread no matter what it was and it is appreciated you sharing rather then, as some have done ,simply jump on a thread to state how it is useless or for alternate purposes with out any validity.

Joe

 

[ShadowBlade]

CBB doesn't mean both parents were removed from the wild, at all.

I can't really imagine any time the distinction 'CBB' is used besides talking about newer species from WC parents. Because any other time you just use CB everyone assumes they were not only captive BRED but that they were also BORN.. because obviously, you're selling them.

Look at every dealer's pricelist, they just use the term CB.

-Sean