CBB verses CB What do you think?

kaydyn1512

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So, I have recently been getting several PM regarding an ad I posted about some Maraca cabocla that a friend just hatched out, stating he was the first person to Captively breed and produce a sac in the US. There has been one other person who was lucky enough to have received a wild caught gravid female that produced a successful sac so he essentially was the first to have a captive born sac in the US.

Although I am not in any way trying to take away the achievement of this first successful hatching, my friend was the first to actually take a pair of M caboclas and successfully breed them in the US. He has 3 mature wild caught females and had 1 immature wild caught male that matured in his care. He waited for all of his females to molt out fresh to assure that he gave himself the best possible chance of being successful in his breeding project. His male matured and after an appropriate amount of time, he attempted to pair his first female with the MM but was a bit leery of the aggression so took him out of that attempt. He then paired him with a second female, where there was a successful insertion and the female then promptly flipped over on her back taking him with her and killed him instantly. It was from this pairing, the sac was produced and successfully hatched out. Although this female and male were wild caught, they were bred IN CAPTIVITY and produced the FIRST US CAPTIVE BRED AND BORN Maraca caboclas in the US. You can see the only breeding report on here that describes the process this man went through to get this sac produced.

So what is your opinion about the difference between Captive born lucky and Captive Bred and Born? Like I said, I'm not trying to take anything away from the first guy but my friend put in the time and effort and hard work to get these guys to produce.


What do you think?
 
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NikiP

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Simple enough.

Your friend gets to boast being the first to breed them :)

And the other guy (not that it's much less of a feat :) ) gets to boast having hatched the first ones.

It's still an accomplishment for either of them.
 

AgentD006las

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It obviously takes more effort to pair them yourself. I dont doubt the person to hatch them out first, could of paired them successfully if she wasnt gravid. But thats not how it went. Give credit where its due for each person and there should be no problems.
 

Protectyaaaneck

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No difference, IMO. No offense to Joe, but what did he do that was so special? His specimens were WC's, right? I could see if he raised some cb slings to adulthood and then bred them, that might be something special. But just because he witnessed the male do his deed in captivity does not mean he did something special. It's not like he delivered the sperm himself...:rolleyes:
 

JoeRossi

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Humbled.....

I am honered to have my Maraca's spoken about in a thread. I am also honored to the beautiful specie to recieve a fertile sac after pairing the female and male up and watch the female anialate his face. Lets face it my 10 or so successful breedings don't hold a candle stick to the likes of breeders such as the Master Swift with about that much success with P. Mettalica alone. The bottom line is if I say something is a fact it is and it was the first Captive Bred Maraca Cabacla in the U.S. Hats off to Steve (Talon) for having the first captive born and I gave him credit when he hatched them out. So if you have a problem with Cori stating in her add they are the first Maraca Cabocla's bred and successfully produced in the U.S. then don't shoot the messenger take it up with me and GET YOUR FACTS STRAIGHT! Now back to what really matters is that they are one of the most beautiful, incredibly docile handled, yet agressive eaters/breeders in my opinion. Honer to the specie itself where the honer is due.

P.S. Protect no offense taken as they were raised as sub/adult wild.... just ship my A.A. out This time for sure Monday (tommarow) LOL :D
 
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kaydyn1512

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It obviously takes more effort to pair them yourself. I dont doubt the person to hatch them out first, could of paired them successfully if she wasnt gravid. But thats not how it went. Give credit where its due for each person and there should be no problems.
I totally agree. That's exactly what I am saying. There really shouldn't even be a need for this thread quite frankly but I have gotten slack for stating the truth. I just don't get it. But that's OK, Joe was able to breed a beautiful species successfully, and I am just really excited about these little guys. Really, in the end, the only thing that matters is the tarantula right? Go to the breeding report for this species and look at how beautiful they are.
 
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Miss Bianca

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I've received a gravid spider before and although I wouldn't ever try and
say I BRED the female, I did successfully incubate and rear the babies.
(She died a week after laying her sac)

As previously stated, as long as one is honest with self and with others,
credit is due ONLY for what was accomplished.
and Kaydyn, Who can give crap for true statements? Those people are usually full of crap themselves..
That I'd try to ignore..
Congratulations to both breeders for their particular accomplishments.
 

Bill S

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There really shouldn't even be a need for this thread quite frankly but I have gotten slack for stating the truth.
I would bet that the people giving you flak either don't grasp the difference between HATCHING and BREEDING, or they have some of the first captive hatched babies and feel that their status is somehow lessened by someone else getting credit for producing the first captive bred babies. Personally, I don't attach a premium on FIRST versus 100TH captive breeding, but some do. (I know I've seen one vendor on one of the sites proclaiming that the babies of a particular species that he sells are very rare and from the third breeding of this species in captivity. He does this despite my telling him that I've given away lots of babies from that same species from captive breedings that I've done, and I got my first specimens from another board member here who had captive bred them several times. Status, even unearned, excites some people.)
 

JoeRossi

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I don't attach a premium on FIRST versus 100TH captive breeding, but some do

Agreed Bill & I don't, "attach a premium" either. However, if you are wholeselling to any dealer and they ask if it is 1st time captive bred then you state the facts. With the facts stated if that increases sales because there are not many more around, they are an incredible specie (beauty is always in the eye or the beholder), or they are that rare then so be it. Bottom line is whether its a Chaco sac or a first time rare I always get excited....thats why I love this hobby. Hypo speaking...can you sate you get more excited when it is the 1st time you have got an egg sac from a particular specie? Well, I think all of us can Bill;)




I would bet that the people giving you flak either don't grasp the difference between HATCHING and BREEDING, or they have some of the first captive hatched babies and feel that their status is somehow lessened by someone else getting credit for producing the first captive bred babies. Personally, I don't attach a premium on FIRST versus 100TH captive breeding, but some do. (I know I've seen one vendor on one of the sites proclaiming that the babies of a particular species that he sells are very rare and from the third breeding of this species in captivity. He does this despite my telling him that I've given away lots of babies from that same species from captive breedings that I've done, and I got my first specimens from another board member here who had captive bred them several times. Status, even unearned, excites some people.)
 

ShadowBlade

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I don't even get why your reasoning puts you ahead of the other guy? The other guy hatched them.. in captivity.. first.. His slings are the first captive bred. They weren't taken from the wild. So he won. Where's the grey area?

If you wanna sell the adult pair as the first captive-mating pair in the US, more power to you.

-Sean
 

JoeRossi

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Facts straight.....

Interesting and lets get the facts again straight, I have know idea where the idea of "putting you ahead of the other guy" came from. I am not in a contest and wish Steve the best lol {D. The bottom line is the facts and you are wrong. Caprive bred = an actual breeding in captivity. Captive born= there was no breeding the T just had an egg sac. Talon was captive born first, but not captive bred. Now if your looking for a contest or pissing match try the play ground LOL ;) We are just stating the facts here.

I don't even get why your reasoning puts you ahead of the other guy? The other guy hatched them.. in captivity.. first.. His slings are the first captive bred. They weren't taken from the wild. So he won. Where's the grey area?

If you wanna sell the adult pair as the first captive-mating pair in the US, more power to you.

-Sean
 

ShadowBlade

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So, the whole point of this thread was to point out facts? Why? Do you want the stories of how all species were first bred/born?

No, it doesn't make that big of a difference between bred and born. Unless you're writing a scientific paper, the dealer isn't concerned about that. He will put 'first CB slings' on the page and let the buyers use their imagination whether thats been 'captive bred' or 'captive born'.

Where are you getting this 'all-encompassing' definition of captive breeding, entailing that the entire process must happen ENTIRELY in captivity? In my investigation of the word, in can mean just as much to 'bring up' or 'raise' as to 'produce offspring'.

THE ONLY reason this could POSSIBLY matter, is if one is trying to take credit over someone else.

Although this female and male were wild caught, they were bred IN CAPTIVITY and produced the FIRST US CAPTIVE BRED AND BORN Maraca caboclas in the US. You can see the only breeding report on here that describes the process this man went through to get this sac produced.

So what is your opinion about the difference between Captive born lucky and Captive Bred and Born? Like I said, I'm not trying to take anything away from the first guy but my friend put in the time and effort and hard work to get these guys to produce.

What do you think?
This is what my post was directed about.. not at you in particular. Just 'captive born lucky' is all the credit he deserves? He nurtured the mother, raised the sac healthy, and produced babies that could be sold in the US. Sounds like a batch of CB babies to me.. and unless someone else did it first, he should get to use the title.

The whole reason the word 'captive breeding' is used is to eliminate specimens that were removed from the wild. These spiderlings have been entirely raised in captivity.

-Sean
 

JoeRossi

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The whole reason the word 'captive breeding' is used is to eliminate specimens that were removed....

Once again you are still looking for a pissing match between two breeders and want to argue when I only seek to present the facts (I do like Link though my son & I favorite game....twilight princess :))

Fact 1. The thread was started not by myself, but by Cori who had to deal with individuals arguing an invalid point so lets try this again as your definition of "Captive Breeding" is still flawed.

Fact 2. Captive breeding: is the process of breeding animals (in this case tarantulas) in human controlled environments with restricted settings. Again this must include actual breeding;)

"Just the facts, ma'am". While "Just the facts, ma'am" has come to be known as Dragnet's catchphrase, it was never actually uttered by Joe Friday"

:rolleyes:



So, the whole point of this thread was to point out facts? Why? Do you want the stories of how all species were first bred/born?

No, it doesn't make that big of a difference between bred and born. Unless you're writing a scientific paper, the dealer isn't concerned about that. He will put 'first CB slings' on the page and let the buyers use their imagination whether thats been 'captive bred' or 'captive born'.

Where are you getting this 'all-encompassing' definition of captive breeding, entailing that the entire process must happen ENTIRELY in captivity? In my investigation of the word, in can mean just as much to 'bring up' or 'raise' as to 'produce offspring'.

THE ONLY reason this could POSSIBLY matter, is if one is trying to take credit over someone else.



This is what my post was directed about.. not at you in particular. Just 'captive born lucky' is all the credit he deserves? He nurtured the mother, raised the sac healthy, and produced babies that could be sold in the US. Sounds like a batch of CB babies to me.. and unless someone else did it first, he should get to use the title.

The whole reason the word 'captive breeding' is used is to eliminate specimens that were removed from the wild. These spiderlings have been entirely raised in captivity.

-Sean
 
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ShadowBlade

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Fact 1. Captive breeding: is the process of breeding animals (in this case tarantulas) in human controlled environments with restricted settings. Again this must include actual breeding;)
Wikipedia said:
Captive breeding is the process of breeding animals in human controlled environments with restricted settings
Nice

See earlier post about defining the word 'breeding'.

And okay, lets say you sincerely don't mean to make a deal out of this, then we'll just let it go, and let the OP reply to my comment. :)
Link is awesome

-Sean
 
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JoeRossi

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Just did define...here it is again incase you missed it

Fact 2. Captive breeding: is the process of breeding animals (in this case tarantulas) in human controlled environments with restricted settings. Again this must include actual breeding

Fact 3: Again, they are the first captive bred Maraca Cabocla's in the U.S. and Cori and other breeders can feel free to post them as this period.

Fact 4: Agree with the Link comment he is awesome! However there is no validity in this fact (which makes it an opinion) because I am biast of Link and the fact my son wheres his costume around the house frequently{D.

"And okay, lets say you sincerely don't mean to make a deal out of this, then we'll just let it go, and let the OP reply to my comment" As you wish, consider it now letten go of :)

"Just the facts, ma'am". While "Just the facts, ma'am" has come to be known as Dragnet's catchphrase, it was never actually uttered by Joe Friday"


Nice

See earlier post about defining the word 'breeding'.

-Sean
 
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kaydyn1512

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Honestly, the only reason I posted this thread was because I actually recieved a post on my review thread basically stating that my ad was incorrect. This person said that someone else has bred and produced a sac in the US. The fact is this, Talon was lucky enogh to received a wild caught gravid female who produced a sac for him. I NEVER said there was no work put into it. NEVER!!! Nor did I say Joe was the first to have slings in the US. I was stating just the facts. Of course Talon nurtured the female, took care of the slings and was the first to distribute them. How did this turn into a pissing match for g-d sakes? The facts are the facts, you can't dispute what I described to be captive born and captive bred and born. You can try but you'll be wrong. Both Talon and Joe have great bragging rights here and that is that. How much simpler can it get?
 

ShadowBlade

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Then this is a matter that should have been settled PRIVATELY. Because it looks exactly like one trying to take credit from another. We don't need that in our hobby.

So what is your opinion about the difference between Captive born lucky and Captive Bred and Born?
The facts are the facts, you can't dispute what I described to be captive born and captive bred and born. You can try but you'll be wrong.
Then why even post here, if you can just use your own opinion?

Both Talon and Joe have great bragging rights here and that is that. How much simpler can it get?
Again.. why the public thread about it?

-Sean
 

kaydyn1512

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Then this is a matter that should have been settled PRIVATELY. Because it looks exactly like one trying to take credit from another. We don't need that in our hobby.





Then why even post here, if you can just use your own opinion?



Again.. why the public thread about it?

-Sean

I've already explained why and have no need to explain AGAIN to someone who apparently doesn't read the posts. I think if there is any question about the reasons then just go back and read the thread if it's that important to you. It's really not to me.
 
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desertanimal

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I think this is pretty clear. A spade is a spade. Captive bred and born is exactly what it says. Captive born is exactly what it says. I believe this is a fairly common distinction--CBB vs CB--in the ball python market. No idea what there is to be so angry about, but there's really no question that captive born (only) does not mean the same thing as captive bred and born. Green does not mean the same thing as blue. There's just no arguing it.

I'm glad this was brought up, though, because I've always assumed CB around here meant CBB, as it often does mean the same thing because people don't go to the trouble of using CBB once there's an established captive breeding population. But that's just my experience in the cornsnake world. Now I'll know to inquire in the arachnoculture world, and to inquire about the parents, too, as I'd personally rather buy animals that are CBB and whose parents and grandparents were too. I understand that WC animals are necessary to get various species established in arachnoculture, but I have no particular desire to monetarily support the removal of animals from the wild if there are already established long-time captive lines to be found.

So, your thread has had one unintended consequence that one person appreciates. Thanks! :)
 

kaydyn1512

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I think this is pretty clear. A spade is a spade. Captive bred and born is exactly what it says. Captive born is exactly what it says. I believe this is a fairly common distinction--CBB vs CB--in the ball python market. No idea what there is to be so angry about, but there's really no question that captive born (only) does not mean the same thing as captive bred and born. Green does not mean the same thing as blue. There's just no arguing it.

I'm glad this was brought up, though, because I've always assumed CB around here meant CBB, as it often does mean the same thing because people don't go to the trouble of using CBB once there's an established captive breeding population. But that's just my experience in the cornsnake world. Now I'll know to inquire in the arachnoculture world, and to inquire about the parents, too, as I'd personally rather buy animals that are CBB and whose parents and grandparents were too. I understand that WC animals are necessary to get various species established in arachnoculture, but I have no particular desire to monetarily support the removal of animals from the wild if there are already established long-time captive lines to be found.

So, your thread has had one unintended consequence that one person appreciates. Thanks! :)
Your welcome and thank you!!!! :) I am just getting into corn snakes and mainly buy from one person that breeds CB himself. I have also gotten a couple from people I trust so don't have much worry about it.
 
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