Brown Boxing Your Tarantula - Supply and Demand - and getting things illegal

[nhaverland413]

alright then, how exactly does one discern a brown boxer from a reputable importer/breeder/dealer?

 

[Redneck]

As it has been said.. If those who know who the brown boxxers are.. If you dont support them.. Why not out them so others who choose not to support them dont..

I personally dont want to support brown boxxers if it can cause harm to the hobby.. But I am willing to buy from anyone if their price is good.. If I dont know they are brown boxxing I will buy from them.. If I know they are brown boxxing I wont support them..

 

[AF Exotics]

Thanks Fran,just what I needed . I totally understand your thinking ,and why you would feel that way if that was the margin as it appears to be .


Now look below

Shipping 450.00
Brokerage 220.00
USFW 156.00
ISC 40.00
Broker Export side 120.00
Doc's 100.00

Now this can be spread over 300-500 pieces,maybe 200,but that is not even figuring in the dealer's overhead .I understand that some gouge others,but the real theif is the Brown Boxer,because they don't pay any of this .


DISCLAIMER THIS IS JUST A HYPOTHETICAL SHIPMENT WITH REALISTIC COSTS .I AM A LICENSED I/E AND THESE ARE REFLECTIVE OF COSTS I,AND OTHERS PAY .

 

[Jilly1337]

Well first;

The T was female, the t was over 9", it was looking healthy and plump and it was long term captive, am i right?

Thats not the same as selling a bunch of blondis recently imported between 7-8" which is the regular sizes on those prices, tarantulas that come generally skinny...And T's that have costed 40 bucks a peice, at the most, (importer to dealers prcie) , at the most.
from 40 to 150 plus shipping its quite a good margen.
Is not the same.

Any retail business I have known of at least doubles or triples their cost of an item in order to account for overhead. The actual profit is much less. While the example you gave is slightly higher, it doesn't seem like anything different than what we all face every day with every retail item we purchase.

That being said, if the dealer charges too much for something, it's not going to sell. Any informed consumer has kept an eye on what others are charging for the same species. I'm not going to spend $150 for something I can get for $100 from another reputable person. Nothing against the more expensive dealer, it's just business. I just won't pay more if I can get a better deal. If that dealer is less expensive for the next thing I want, he gets my business then.

 

[xhexdx]

alright then, how exactly does one discern a brown boxer from a reputable importer/breeder/dealer?

Well, the easiest way is if they are shipping to you from out of the country. Only importers can legally do that (proper permits, etc.)

Once they're in the country and someone is then trying to sell them within the country, it's much more difficult to identify someone selling something that was illegally imported.

That's part of what Todd has been saying; if something is being sold that you think might be difficult to get into the country, ask the seller questions regarding their origin.

 

[AF Exotics]

My post also does not include mortality,fines,which can happen with no fault of your own .There are a whole host of things that can happen on a regular basis that cause you to lose money,just like any business .Here,things are perishable,which increases risk .You also pay for those risks .A lot of things unseen,but do factor into a legitimate dealers costs .

 

[Altair]

I do know this has happened, and probably still is. At the same time I find the entire thread virtually useless if people (Ken, Todd, and others) do not name those who are doing this illegally. If you do not inform the public, people are going to continue to support these illegal dealers/sellers. Other than that you are simply pointing out the already known facts of brown boxing.

I think it would be very helpful if the brown boxers were listed on this site. It definitely would be helpful and educational to those who aren't aware of this (like me).

 

[xenesthis]

Best quote of the day!

"Anything more, like accusing them of greedy and dishonest practices, is beyond ridiculous."

Best quote of the day!

He hit it on the head. Every now and then we have a hobbyist that just doesn't understand how the business works. Oh, those greedy, rich importer/dealers with their high profits screwing everybody over left and right. Man, you gotta get a grip. Look how many dealers don't make it in our trade. The current ones that survive are not rich by any means. But, Fran you have a lesson to be learned in how certain dealers and importers have made big financial investments and taken big risks so you have your hobby that you enjoy. I know who I can thank a select few that paved that way. Present day hobbyists can thank dealers like me, Ken, Kelly and James amongst a few others. You have a lot to learn about that. Your accusations are utterly ridiculous. It's not personal. Just debate on the economics of supply and demand and what it takes to be in this trade legally and do it successfully for a long time.

In my experience (28 yrs. in the hobby and trade), the few exotic animals businesses that got filthy rich were doing illegal business. The ones that did legal business were just barely able to pay their bills. You have a big disrespect for how things really work. You have portrayed things incorrectly and your accusations are ridiculous. I ask you to take a step back, think on this and make some positive, constructive debate instead of trying to make these sinister accusations that are not based on logic, fact or anything constructive. It just appears that you have an axe to grind because you didn't get your 8" female T. blondi given to you for $50. Sorry, but last I checked I don't see those low prices on large adult female T. blondi being sold commonly. So, again, let's not be so ridiculous here.

 

[metallica]

i would reverse it and post a white list of "trusted dealers"

 

[nhdjoseywales]

I do know this has happened, and probably still is. At the same time I find the entire thread virtually useless if people (Ken, Todd, and others) do not name those who are doing this illegally. If you do not inform the public, people are going to continue to support these illegal dealers/sellers. Other than that you are simply pointing out the already known facts of brown boxing.

i would tend to agree. with some ad's its obvious the deal is sketchy for most people. Some for sale posts in the last 2 months these forums come to mind when i think about this topic. im not suggesting that every person who offers to ship from israel or countries like that are shady but the ad sure looks to be.
maybe even requiring proof of ability to legally ship should be a requirement for posting ads that offer international shipping is a partial solution. or breaking down the ads section by country instead of it being a hodgepodge of whoever-wherever.

if you have names, name them so we know not to buy from those sellers. some people don't have the common sense to figure things out on their own and thus we need direct help from those in the know.

just my two cents, but im just a schmuck so my thoughts may be worthless

 

[xhexdx]

i would reverse it and post a white list of "trusted dealers"

That list would be ever-changing as people become identified as scammers, etc.

However, I suppose it would also avoid specifically naming people NOT to do business with.

 

[Fran]

"Anything more, like accusing them of greedy and dishonest practices, is beyond ridiculous."

Best quote of the day!

He hit it on the head. Every now and then we have a hobbyist that just doesn't understand how the business works. Oh, those greedy, rich importer/dealers with their high profits screwing everybody over left and right. Man, you gotta get a grip. Look how many dealers don't make it in our trade. The current ones that survive are not rich by any means. But, Fran you have a lesson to be learned in how certain dealers and importers have made big financial investments and taken big risks so you have your hobby that you enjoy. I know who I can thank a select few that paved that way. People have me can thank dealers like me, Ken, Kelly and James. You have a lot to learn about that. Your accusations are utterly ridiculous. It's not personal. Just debate on the economics of supply and demand and what it takes to be in this trade legally and do it successfully for a long time.

In my experience (28 yrs. in the hobby and trade), the few exotic animals business that got filthy rich were doing illegal business. The ones that did legal business were just barely able to pay their bills. You have a big disrespect for how things really work. You have portrayed things incorrectly and this accusations are ridiculous. I ask you to take a step back, think on this and make some positive, constructive debate instead of trying to make this sinister accusations that are not based on logic, fact or anything constructive. It just appears that you have an axe to grind because you didn't get your 8" female T. blondi given to you for $50. Sorry, but last I checked I don't see those low prices on large adult female T. blondi being sold commonly. So, again, let's not be so ridiculous here.

Ok todd, since you are putting words in my miuth and quite honestly trying to defend yourself with crappy run arounds...Ill be more specific.

Your prices are RIDICULOUS and you wont get my bussines.
I do not think you are really corncern about things the way you make it seem.
You overprice in my opinion.

there, you have it.

Ps: for your own information I dont look for cheap crappy animals.

I just expend 600 dollars on a T blondi and a B smithi, because they deserved it.

I must remind you here that once you OFFERED ME 1 CENT A PIECE for my L. Parahybanas slings, and at the same time you were selling 6" female L. Parahybana for around $200.
HOW ABOUT THAT, TODD ?

 

[nhdjoseywales]

It's not the responsibility of the owners of this site to make sure all sales are being done legally. It's the responsibility of the buyers and sellers.

joe, we both know that doesnt work. the buyer is looking for a deal, the seller is looking for profit. i dont know what the solution is, i suggested one, although im unsure how to accomplish it, but sites that allow ads to be placed offering international shipping probably need to help solve the problem.

one could make the argument that if a guy is standing in your front yard selling nickel bags that is isnt your job to help stop it, but thats kind of a cop out (yes i realize its not quite a direct comparison but its not too far off)

 

[syndicate]

Well..Is it against forum rules to announce who is doing the brown boxing?
From what I've heard there's a couple "bigger" dealers on this forum who do this.
If its not against the rules to tell us then why not make this information available to the public??( @ Todd or anyone else who knows)
-Chris

 

[xenesthis]

brown-boxers

That list you request will never appear on the invert sites. Why? Because some of the sites have owners and moderators that look the other way.

Until a few get busted and their is publicity about it, you won't see that list, but the bad thing about that is once that starts happening big brother gets to justify how they will regulate us more.

My suggestion is once you have proof somebody is doing this, let USFWS know, not these invert sites. Some of these guys like to brag how they got their normally, expensive spiders so cheap from a guy in Germany through the mail. They can't keep it to themselves.

Don't buy their stock. Don't support them. Turn them in. Cull the herd.

 

[metallica]

That list would be ever-changing as people become identified as scammers, etc.

However, I suppose it would also avoid specifically naming people NOT to do business with.

how does it go again?

innocent until proven guilty

so best to work the other way round.

 

[metallica]

from a guy in German

i say ban all Germans! nothing but trouble they are.

 

[xenesthis]

Fran

After all the stuff you posted today and the crap you said to several people, man, I would not want your business. You are RIDICULOUS.

Good luck getting your 8" female T. blondi for $50. Make sure we don't see anymore $100 ads for yours though.

 

[Xian]

Your prices are RIDICULOUS and you wont get my bussines.
I do not think you are really corncern about things the way you make it seem.
You overprice in my opinion.

there, you have it.

Ps: for your own information I dont look for cheap crappy animals.

I just expend 600 dollars on a T blondi and a B smithi, because they deserved it.

Nothing against you Fran, but???????????????????????????????

 

[Jilly1337]

Well..Is it against forum rules to announce who is doing the brown boxing?
From what I've heard there's a couple "bigger" dealers on this forum who do this.
If its not against the rules to tell us then why not make this information available to the public??( @ Todd or anyone else who knows)
-Chris

People would need to be careful not to say anything that could be slanderous or liable. We have the Online Dealer and Breeder Reviews section that people can use to post their experiences, positive or negative. The problem is, if someone is buying illegally, they aren't going to post it online.