Brown Boxing Your Tarantula - Supply and Demand - and getting things illegal

[cacoseraph]

If all you're doing is quoting the markup, you are being incredibly mislead, Fran. 4 x markup is pretty high, but unlike most consumer goods (where the markup at the store is between 40-200%) the overhead (import permits, shipping, care) are vastly higher. If I had to hazard a guess, bigger importers are spending a very significant percentage, if not the majority, on overhead rather than the actual price of the animals. The markup is that high because that is what is required to stay in business. That is why everyone else sells them for the same price. It's standard market equilibrium.

Nobody is in this hobby because they are greedy. Your statement is probably the most ridiculous accusation yet.

another huge difference between non-biological products versus living animals: your entire stock of hairbrushes won't get tweaked from a power outage killing your heating in the middle of a bad winter storm... not to mention motor oil can't get sick and die =P


also, all the $$'s-in-their-eyes hobbyists just don't seem to last long. check out how many ppl start "what is the most valuable spider to breed and sell" threads and how many of those ppl either A) are not still in the hobby or B) realized, surprisingly enough, bugs really aren't that great of a get rich quick scheme... but are pretty cool in their own right and became a "normal" hobbyist. this is a great hobby that i love a lot, but for 95% of the ppl it is just a money hole (maybe not just in dollars, but in dollars + time it almost certainly will be)



my local group has looked into importing... we think we maybe can do it for just north of $1000, but it looks like it will be closer to $2000. in order to reduce that overhead to a small % of your shipment you are forced to bring in $10,000 or $20,000 of bugs at a time, AT LEAST! that would be just to keep basic shipping costs down to ~10% of total dollar costs. not to mention you have to get your shipment inspected at one of only three entry ports in the USA... and other hoops that you have to jump through. it is utterly non-trivial to legally import!

 

[hassman789]

is it illegal to find one somwhere in the united states then ship it to your home in the united states (somwhere where tarantulas dont live) and keep it as a pet? im sure u probably cant take that on a plane. but if it stays in the country is it ok? i wouldnt take a tarantula out of the wild for my own selfish reasons i am just wondering

 

[Cbarr]

I am not tip toeing around that I stated that practically in the start of this thread....I hate it when I see someone brown box something and drop the price on that species....it hurts my bottom line, all the wholesalers bottome lines, all the breeders bottom lines and discourages all of us from even selling tarantulas if brown boxers will bring them in anyways.

Dont get me wrong Ken, Im all about supporting u and the other straight shooters

I was just trying to point out something that causes brown boxing, plus people think that they can be rich and live the american dream off of brown boxing some t's, uve got to respect the dream it is America after all but like u pointed out thats not a practical dream!

You will probably be working a full time job as well!

I think there is two different types of brown boxers as well. The ones that are honestly passionate about r hobby and the ones that just want the money!

Brown boxing is illegal and i dont condone it, but at the same time when u get past the illegal part, Does it do any good at all for the HOBBY or is it all bad!!!

c

 

[metallica]

Brown boxing hurts all of us. It threatens our hobby as a whole, ruins markets which in turn discourages people from breeding and such. I know I hate it when I see a great species loose all its value cause someone decided to illegal ship that animal too themself and then sell it for nothing in the name of helping the hobby. OK blast away at me

How long does this brown box effect last? Say a german smuggler ... erm collector goes to Brazil, picks up some funky sub-adult Avicularia sp. Gets these to Germany and sells them. Being an Avic species they are easy to breed. So after the spiders molt and mature it is not long before the first sacs are produced. These spiderlings in turn are legally shipped to the US and end up on dealer lists. Are these still brown box spiders now?

Eddy

 

[cacoseraph]

is it illegal to find one somwhere in the united states then ship it to your home in the united states (somwhere where tarantulas dont live) and keep it as a pet? im sure u probably cant take that on a plane. but if it stays in the country is it ok? i wouldnt do not take a tarantula out of the wild for my own selfish reasons i am just wondering

that is a discussion for a different thread.

short answer: depends on state and local laws for it to be legal to collect the tarantula. there is no 100% legal way to ship between states that we know of now, though.

 

[Fran]

I think really it might be me, honestly.

I dont think I explain myself correctly or good enough to get you to understand me.

Im not talking about specific numbers. Im talking about something EVERYBODY in the Us hobby knows; Some people overprice stuff.

I understand the offer and demand law, I have college education on Physics and Geography. Im talking about the ridiculous prices SOME people have in their stock, but then at the same time they put themselves out there like if they are only a poor guy trying to make it and help the hobby.

Bullcrap.

PS: And Im NOT talking about Ken the bug guy

 

[syndicate]

How long does this brown box effect last? Say a german smuggler ... erm collector goes to Brazil, picks up some funky sub-adult Avicularia sp. Gets these to Germany and sells them. Being an Avic species they are easy to breed. So after the spiders molt and mature it is not long before the first sacs are produced. These spiderlings in turn are legally shipped to the US and end up on dealer lists. Are these still brown box spiders now?

Eddy

Eddy makes a good point!One that Ken brought up earlier as well.. A good portion of spiders in this hobby currently were at one point or another smuggled out of there country of origin.
I mainly have a problem with dealers who brown box as they are solely doing this for the money and not just to get one or two spiders or a breeding group of something.Not that doing it either way makes it right but its unfair for people who are following by the rules!
At the end of the day anyone thinkin bout gettin packages from oversea's illegally should really ask them self is it worth the risk??
It sheds bad light on the hobby and that's the last thing we want!
Another thing most people dont know is that anyone can get import permits and from what I understand theres ways of doing it that wont cost you 1000's of dollars.

-Chris

 

[KenTheBugGuy]

How long does this brown box effect last? Say a german smuggler ... erm collector goes to Brazil, picks up some funky sub-adult Avicularia sp. Gets these to Germany and sells them. Being an Avic species they are easy to breed. So after the spiders molt and mature it is not long before the first sacs are produced. These spiderlings in turn are legally shipped to the US and end up on dealer lists. Are these still brown box spiders now?

Eddy

They are not considered brown boxed at that time anymore. Granted this is what I said a few threads back and I know is very controversial and could get me in trouble for saying.....I have mixed feelings about a new species coming in brown boxed. Not saying it is right or I do it, but if offered a new species I might purchase it still. I also know I have purchases slings that were from a brown boxed spider and possibly even purchased spiders from Germany that were brown boxed.

Now saying all that smuggling is not really good for our hobby and risk more laws being put in affect if people get caught. I am not an angel but I also don't support smuggling. Many import laws are there for a reason and breaking them can make them even worse in the future. Also smuggling in animals to make a quick buck only, well no reason for it. Getting species illegal so you can price them lower hurts many in the selling aspect and eventually the hobbyist.

 

[KenTheBugGuy]

Another thing most people dont know is that anyone can get import permits and from what I understand theres ways of doing it that wont cost you 1000's of dollars.

-Chris

THe permits and such don't cost that much its the shipping and broker fees that are killer.

On average I would say between 600 and 1200 in plane trip, broker fees dependent where its comming from. Oh and Egypt is 1500 dollars just in frieght....I almost had a heart attack at that!

 

[jayefbe]

I understand the offer and demand law, I have college education on Physics and Geography. Im talking about the ridiculous prices SOME people have in their stock, but then at the same time they put themselves out there like if they are only a poor guy trying to make it and help the hobby.

Bullcrap.

PS: And Im NOT talking about Ken the bug guy

If you're not talking about Ken, then why'd you bring it up addressed to Ken? You even had a specific spider and price in mind when you brought it up. It certainly appeared as though you were talking about Ken. If you're just talking about one importer/seller than just don't buy from him.

Honestly though, importers and wholesalers are helping the hobby. Probably the vast majority of inverts being sold go through them. Without them, we don't have a hobby. They have to markup their stock a significant amount, not to make a ton of money, but to simply remain in business. If that's not something you can live with, then just don't buy from them. Anything more, like accusing them of greedy and dishonest practices, is beyond ridiculous.

 

[Jilly1337]

How long does this brown box effect last? Say a german smuggler ... erm collector goes to Brazil, picks up some funky sub-adult Avicularia sp. Gets these to Germany and sells them. Being an Avic species they are easy to breed. So after the spiders molt and mature it is not long before the first sacs are produced. These spiderlings in turn are legally shipped to the US and end up on dealer lists. Are these still brown box spiders now?

Eddy

That would be the only time I can kind of understand it. Otherwise, it is much easier to but CB's. I have gotten killer deals on CB slings by just being patient and waiting until I find something I want for a killer deal. If it is something that is not available at all in the pet trade, I wouldn't think badly about someone brown boxing if it lead to a future CB population in the pet trade. In the long run, it could actually reduce the need for WC of that species.

 

[KenTheBugGuy]

If you're not talking about Ken, then why'd you bring it up addressed to Ken? You even had a specific spider and price in mind when you brought it up. It certainly appeared as though you were talking about Ken. If you're just talking about one importer/seller than just don't buy from him.

Honestly though, importers and wholesalers are helping the hobby. Probably the vast majority of inverts being sold go through them. Without them, we don't have a hobby. They have to markup their stock a significant amount, not to make a ton of money, but to simply remain in business. If that's not something you can live with, then just don't buy from them. Anything more, like accusing them of greedy and dishonest practices, is beyond ridiculous.

No worries I do not feel attacked and started this thread at ready to defend I appreciate the support though!

 

[Cowin8579]

thank you for this discussion thread.

There is a small monopoly with our three big invert dealers, but I don't exactly mind this. Without you there would be slightly more chaos possibly, however it is natural to assume you can hold certain prices and values at least for awhile on a certain species, before it is captive bred. Without this income, you would have less purpose/motivation to do what you do. The business practice pieces, and organized shipping, and even the fun stuff like selling your excess inventory makes things fun.

I like bugging you via emails, and recieving availability lists.

 

[John Apple]

Fran...I remember selling you a nice blondi and it was over a hundred dollars, my price was very competitive with other dealers man...so I am a bit at a loss for your reasoning

 

[Fran]

If you're not talking about Ken, then why'd you bring it up addressed to Ken? You even had a specific spider and price in mind when you brought it up. It certainly appeared as though you were talking about Ken. If you're just talking about one importer/seller than just don't buy from him.

Honestly though, importers and wholesalers are helping the hobby. Probably the vast majority of inverts being sold go through them. Without them, we don't have a hobby. They have to markup their stock a significant amount, not to make a ton of money, but to simply remain in business. If that's not something you can live with, then just don't buy from them. Anything more, like accusing them of greedy and dishonest practices, is beyond ridiculous.

Well thats your opinion. theres people being greedy and overpricing, that is a fact, and you are darn right I wont buy from them, but dont be an hypocrite like you would gladly spend 40$ extra dollars on a tarantula so you can support certain dealers.
Come on really...Come on.

 

[Smitty78]

This topic can start here since its in other threads it don't really belong!

So we all know we should not do it and in the long run it hurts our hobby so feel free to argue away!

Here I will start
Brown boxing hurts all of us. It threatens our hobby as a whole, ruins markets which in turn discourages people from breeding and such. I know I hate it when I see a great species loose all its value cause someone decided to illegal ship that animal too themself and then sell it for nothing in the name of helping the hobby. OK blast away at me

No blasting required. Ken, we are in 100% agreement. Brown-boxing smugglers are hurting our hobby. Hobbyists should not support them. Web site owners and moderators question, investigate and if you need to, delete their posts.

I do know this has happened, and probably still is. At the same time I find the entire thread virtually useless if people (Ken, Todd, and others) do not name those who are doing this illegally. If you do not inform the public, people are going to continue to support these illegal dealers/sellers. Other than that you are simply pointing out the already known facts of brown boxing.

 

[AF Exotics]

Good thread Ken .I am curious if those in the retail customer position,know about all the individual costs on an average legal import ?

Maybe we can see a breakdown from a customer's idea of what they think goes into a shipment .

 

[Fran]

Fran...I remember selling you a nice blondi and it was over a hundred dollars, my price was very competitive with other dealers man...so I am a bit at a loss for your reasoning

Well first;

The T was female, the t was over 9", it was looking healthy and plump and it was long term captive, am i right?

Thats not the same as selling a bunch of blondis recently imported between 7-8" which is the regular sizes on those prices, tarantulas that come generally skinny...And T's that have costed 40 bucks a peice, at the most, (importer to dealers prcie) , at the most.
from 40 to 150 plus shipping its quite a good margen.
Is not the same.

 

[nhaverland413]

>

P.S.

Shhhhh....I notice that every since Ken and I started making some noise about this problem in our hobby, the *known* box boxing smugglers are staying very quiet the last few days. No posts. No ads......Hmmm....laying low

I feel naive asking this but if we know who some of these people are why are they not blacklisted/banned from selling? It worries me that I may be doing business with brown boxers without even knowing it.

 

[xhexdx]

It's not the responsibility of the owners of this site to make sure all sales are being done legally. It's the responsibility of the buyers and sellers.