Brown Boxing Your Tarantula - Supply and Demand - and getting things illegal

[Richard McJimsey]

Would lying to customs about the contents of the import be considered "brown boxing"?

 

[nhdjoseywales]

if it avoids the import costs i would guess so

 

[Cowin8579]

If you look at the laws, lying about the contents increases the fines and legal action BIG TIME. Aka "contains plastic spoons".

 

[Anastasia]

I guess it depends on country,
I send few (not invert related ) boxes to Russia
and last 2 shipments, the other side didnt get for almost 3 months
I honestly wrote what was in the box ( meds and vitamins for Russian kids)
I though the will never get them!! 3 mounts later they did, box was open and inspected thoughtfully every bottle was open!
EVEN couple toys wore ripped
I couldn't believe my ears, but Am glad the got box, with meds period

 

[Venari]

26 USFWS agents from 3 states kicked in his door and took his animals and computer.

Now, brown boxing is illegal, and has severe condequences...but did they take his legal animals? On what grounds did they seize his computer? Will they return it?

 

[xenesthis]

info

They seized his computer and records because he was using emails to his Brazilian contact and has paper work printed in his home about those conversations. His illegal animals were of course seized, but his "legal" animals were seized in the beginning because the authorities have to assume they are illegal until proven otherwise based on him getting caught for getting Brazilian tarantulas in the mail. I'm guessing him got some stuff back, but the whole thing cost him over $40,000+ not counting the animal values of what he paid for. The 40k was in fines and attorney/court costs. Plus, he got 5 yrs. probation for this 1st offense.

Bottom line for the brown-boxing U.S. residents that have been engaged in this illegal activity, it's not $$$ worth it. Don't receive animals illegally in the mail from anybody outside the U.S.

 

[daytona1911]

Its really interesting how similar pretty much all importing is . I own a local retail business and do a bit of importing myself . Although its not spiders ( Its actually Plant material , bonsai specifically), it has a whole lot of parallels of importing anything that needs to be inspected. For one thing , you need the importers certificate, broker fees, inspection fees, nursery registration fees, etc , etc , and we also have people who go to different countries that have spectacular deals on old , amazing material and import them illegally by "brown boxing" them directly to their homes , stating it is something else and hope customs doesn't catch the material . There are a few things that I have a major problem with this practice . For one , the potential to import pests clinging to said material into the states if imported illegally.There are many documented cases of pest insects brought in illegally , then getting into our native flora and fauna and recking havoc , but what other pathogens can be brought in with spiders? I'm sure there are many many types of say Nematodes? , Odd Fungus that invade breathing organs ? just a thought.
It can be possible to brown bag , and even profitable But I equate it to any type of illegal activity ( gun running , smuggling , drugs , etc) Is it really worth the risk? Sure you can save a few bucks on a few varieties, but to pay for material that was legally brought in with all its costs and restrictions not only is supporting someone who isn't breaking the law and helping a small business stay in business, but you are also possibly helping keep out invasive pests and other pathogens that could come into our hobby . Just my thoughts , this really is a close to home thread for the record.
Jason . www.schleysbonsai.com

 

[ZergFront]

lol aww dont be too worked up on this cheer up, im sure if money was what u were after a diffrent market would be the choice i mean do people rely make a ton of money on T's? it seams if u wanted pets and money the dog, fish and bird industries are a better wa0y to go. if i wasent broke i'd order more T's but any ways geez that e mail was harsh if that person rely wanted to help the hobby they can hook me up with some free P metalicas and subfuscas

What about the reptile business? I saw a chameleon for sale that was about two or three of my paychecks.

I can't even imagine the penaulties for brown boxing or shipping any specimens to Hawaii. They make one thing very clear; NO plants (just even the edibles as well. Risk of carrying fungus, disease or insect) or animals into Hawaii - BIG TIME. Too many species could take off exponentially in that climate. A few islands are already having a big problem with the cat-eye snakes eating threatened birds' eggs.

Is there a difference between brown boxing and smuggling? Is it the same term? :?

 

[gromgrom]

What about the reptile business? I saw a chameleon for sale that was about two or three of my paychecks.

I can't even imagine the penaulties for brown boxing or shipping any specimens to Hawaii. They make one thing very clear; NO plants (just even the edibles as well. Risk of carrying fungus, disease or insect) or animals into Hawaii - BIG TIME. Too many species could take off exponentially in that climate. A few islands are already having a big problem with the cat-eye snakes eating threatened birds' eggs.

Is there a difference between brown boxing and smuggling? Is it the same term? :?

essentially yes, i'm sure there are minor differences in the definition and depending on your dictionary.

 

[super-pede]

I am going to admit that one of my pedes was brown boxed.At the time, I had no Idea that it was against the law.Even though I would not brown box anything ever again, I am glad that my galapagensis was brown boxed in because I am one of the few who own this pede.If I ever found out that someone else had one I would try to breed them in a heartbeat.

 

[xenesthis]

?

>I am going to admit that one of my pedes was brown boxed.At the time, I >had no Idea that it was against the law.Even though I would not brown box >anything ever again, I am glad that my galapagensis was brown boxed in >because I am one of the few who own this pede.If I ever found out that >someone else had one I would try to breed them in a heartbeat.

While I understand your enthusiasm for rare centipedes, I respectfully disagree with your reasoning to validate what you did.

1) Not great to admit this on a public form with active investigations going on and USFWS browsing this site and threads like this.
2) There is a possibilty of the feds being able to shut down our trade with brown-boxing/smuggling going on that you have participated in. Maybe in your mind, you got a great deal, but you take big risk to yourself, but consider our hobby too. Do you want to mess things up for our hobby?

These are just thoughts that I hope you consider seriously and I hope you will see the logical reasoning here and stop smuggling. It is big risk to you and our hobby.

 

[campj]

The love of money is a root of all kinds of evil. Not the money itself, but the human LOVE of money....

 

[gromgrom]

>I am going to admit that one of my pedes was brown boxed.At the time, I >had no Idea that it was against the law.Even though I would not brown box >anything ever again, I am glad that my galapagensis was brown boxed in >because I am one of the few who own this pede.If I ever found out that >someone else had one I would try to breed them in a heartbeat.

While I understand your enthusiasm for rare centipedes, I respectfully disagree with your reasoning to validate what you did.

1) Not great to admit this on a public form with active investigations going on and USFWS browsing this site and threads like this.
2) There is a possibilty of the feds being able to shut down our trade with brown-boxing/smuggling going on that you have participated in. Maybe in your mind, you got a great deal, but you take big risk to yourself, but consider our hobby too. Do you want to mess things up for our hobby?

These are just thoughts that I hope you consider seriously and I hope you will see the logical reasoning here and stop smuggling. It is big risk to you and our hobby.

if he got a breeding pair, bred them, and sold the babies into the hobby, and then not tell they were brown boxed, is that okay? especially for you, since i've seen your lists and love the rare selection and nice prices (on scorps, not knowledgable enough about T's)

j/w, i've never ordered online yet, period. I will never brown box

 

[xenesthis]

good question

>f he got a breeding pair, bred them, and sold the babies into the hobby, and >then not tell they were brown boxed, is that okay?

No. Because if USFWS can prove that the parents were smuggled in the mail, then the babies are just as hot as the parents.

Now, the question that I don't know the answer to is this: Use the Australian Bearded Dragon Lizards for an example. Approximately 25 yrs. ago, those were smuggled into Europe and the U.S. via Europe. Technically, every bearded dragon in the U.S. would be illegal, but look at how many thousands of owners of these lizards exist in the U.S. I don't think is feasible for wildlife authorities to go prosecute all these thousands of bearded dragon owners. At what generation of captive-born stock is legal to own then? I don't know. That's a question for USFWS.

I can tell you that if you smuggle animals into the U.S. via the mail. Breed them and put them up on AB, the captive-stock is technically illegal if USFWS can prove you smuggled the parents in. Is it worth the risk? Some out there will say it is so they can get cheaper animals, but when you get caught and pay thousands in fines, is it really? Do it bad enough in value and qty. and possibly go to jail. Is it worth that risk?

Lastly, but more importantly, do you want to screw it up for everyone else in this hobby?

 

[azgbb]

Lastly, but more importantly, do you want to screw it up for everyone else in this hobby?

“Selfishness is that detestable vice which no one will forgive in others, and no one is without in himself”

 

[gromgrom]

>f he got a breeding pair, bred them, and sold the babies into the hobby, and >then not tell they were brown boxed, is that okay?

No. Because if USFWS can prove that the parents were smuggled in the mail, then the babies are just as hot as the parents.

Now, the question that I don't know the answer to is this: Use the Australian Bearded Dragon Lizards for an example. Approximately 25 yrs. ago, those were smuggled into Europe and the U.S. via Europe. Technically, every bearded dragon in the U.S. would be illegal, but look at how many thousands of owners of these lizards exist in the U.S. I don't think is feasible for wildlife authorities to go prosecute all these thousands of bearded dragon owners. At what generation of captive-born stock is legal to own then? I don't know. That's a question for USFWS.

I can tell you that if you smuggle animals into the U.S. via the mail. Breed them and put them up on AB, the captive-stock is technically illegal if USFWS can prove you smuggled the parents in. Is it worth the risk? Some out there will say it is so they can get cheaper animals, but when you get caught and pay thousands in fines, is it really? Do it bad enough in value and qty. and possibly go to jail. Is it worth that risk?

Lastly, but more importantly, do you want to screw it up for everyone else in this hobby?

yeah not that i would ever do it, thanks for clearing it up