You know what happened to Steve Irwin, well read this...

[Arietans]

So does rabies and Avian influenza on animals. Yet, they're no closer to a cure. And I don't see them getting one soon. They must wait for natural defenses to develop. We have vaccines for Malaria, it helps.

Tell that to the millions dying each year from malaria.

Tarantulas kill each other to. Thats an effort.

But for some reason they don't do it because the other T has a better burrow. Probably their "limited intelligence"

Bull. Thats stupid. Come one.. Our brains help us VERY much. I don't know about you, but last time I checked, the gorillas were in our cages, not us in theirs.

Mate, believe me when I tell you that the animal stays by choice.

I'll tell you what. I'm not too 'hip to dip' on all this technology in the world. I don't own a cell phone, I don't fish with those 'depth finders', and I don't hunt on a four-wheeler. I prefer the real stuff, (as real as you can get in North America). And other people, like myself, enjoy going to places like Africa to hunt, in more or less, as a challenge. But sometimes they sissy the hunt with technology anyway.

I've been working in the bush for ten years, and I have seen guys wih guns that can do a backflip if you asked nice. Radar and who knows what else shoot nothing in two weeks. Not even spot game.

Okay, I'll admit it. Maybe I didn't say it right. I believe things like rats or mosquitoes could exist on Earth just as long as we could. We can't get rid of them. I think of the larger, terrestrial vertebrates, we are.

The larger mammals are shy and retiring. Its is their nature. We are the only violent mammal.

Where was nature when we came and slaughtered the millions of Buffalo?
Where was nature when we blasted all the carrier pidgeons from the air?

No offence intended, but nature was busy destroying places like New Orleans.

Something else for you all to consider. Much of the diseases that are killing us is because we've spread around the globe. If we stayed in single areas, we'd have much stronger immune systems, with less spread diseases. But we don't we've taken advantage of every corner of the globe for our growing population. And we're developing ways to protect ourselves. Most other animals couldn't go as far as we have, or better their survival in those areas. We ARE surviving because we're quite smart.

Uhm....... we have no natural predators, so nature made a plan. We will never overcome disease. The will change to suit a new environment. Our natural selection continues......

 

[Khaz Rhoz Zek]

Tell that to the millions dying each year from malaria.


The larger mammals are shy and retiring. Its is their nature. We are the only violent mammal.


No offence intended, but nature was busy destroying places like New Orleans.


Uhm....... we have no natural predators, so nature made a plan. We will never overcome disease. The will change to suit a new environment. Our natural selection continues......

1. Because they didn't have access the proper channels for treatment.

2. Have you ever encountered a chimpanzee? They're absolutely vicious mammals, far moreso than humans.

3. What of the countless amounts of people and homes that were able to survive the hurricane quite well due to technology?

4. Not until we've rid ourselves of our organic bodies, which will be entirely possible with future technology. What will nature do then? Nothing, really, because we will merely rise up to defeat nature through sheer ingenuity and time, much as we have done since time immemorial.

 

[Arietans]

1. Because they didn't have access the proper channels for treatment.

That is a statement based on a google search mate. Let me explain how malaria medication works, or doesn't work. Like most diseases, the parasite causing malaria adapts and counter adapts at a geometric rate. The medication that worked last season won't work this season.

2. Have you ever encountered a chimpanzee? They're absolutely vicious mammals, far moreso than humans.

Many many times. No animal is vicious just because it can be. There is always a reason for it. Always. With chimps it tends to the territorial. Remember that what you see may be brutal, but use perspective. If you hit someone with a stick it looks far less damaging than what it does if you used the same force with a hammer. Chimps have unreal strength, thus the effect when beating something is very dramatic.

3. What of the countless amounts of people and homes that were able to survive the hurricane quite well due to technology?

Do you believe that hurricane was the worst ever?

4. Not until we've rid ourselves of our organic bodies, which will be entirely possible with future technology. What will nature do then? Nothing, really, because we will merely rise up to defeat nature through sheer ingenuity and time, much as we have done since time immemorial.

Who knows what nature will do? How many countless lives have been lost due to trying to second guess nature? We can't even predict the weather properly.

The fact of the matter is this: we can't do anything without nature, and it does everything without us.

 

[ShadowBlade]

Tell that to the millions dying each year from malaria.

Tell them what? That there'd be millions more dead without medical technology?

But for some reason they don't do it because the other T has a better burrow. Probably their "limited intelligence"

Our greater intelligence poses a problem. It can present higher choices. With more intelligence, comes the ability to do more things, right or wrong, that an animal would never think of. Such as throwing toilet paper over someone's house.

Mate, believe me when I tell you that the animal stays by choice.

Man I don't understand what you keep trying to say. We have dominion over gorrillas. Now you'll say, "well, tell that to the people walking in on them and having their heads ripped off". Thats very rare, you know that. And the times we show dominion over them is far greater. Our technology put them in cages, (which I don't like at all) and we can keep them there. Lets say a gorilla did escape, tranquilizer gun. Thats it. The gorilla can cause all the trouble it can, until the humans put the technology to it. The gorilla loses.

I've been working in the bush for ten years, and I have seen guys wih guns that can do a backflip if you asked nice. Radar and who knows what else shoot nothing in two weeks. Not even spot game.

It doesn't mean its not fun.

The larger mammals are shy and retiring. Its is their nature. We are the only violent mammal.

Most of the time yes, but we can stop them. They can't stop us.

No offence intended, but nature was busy destroying places like New Orleans.

Man, they built a city in a hole in the ground. You'd expect it could get flooded this bad. But still. Our numbers are not in danger, and these scenarios pose no threat. They don't happen enough.

Uhm....... we have no natural predators, so nature made a plan. We will never overcome disease. The will change to suit a new environment. Our natural selection continues......

Wrong. We have natural predators. If we stayed just naked humans running around, we'd get killed by bears, jumped by gorillas, and bitten by snakes. But we've developed this way. No other mammal has overcome disease either.

Let me explain how malaria medication works, or doesn't work. Like most diseases, the parasite causing malaria adapts and counter adapts at a geometric rate. The medication that worked last season won't work this season.

Yes, but we're still doing far better for research against diseases. Whereas animals are still dying from Mad Cow disease, Avian flu, and dozens others. They must wait for natural defenses to develop. This difference proves superior intelligence.

Who knows what nature will do? How many countless lives have been lost due to trying to second guess nature? We can't even predict the weather properly.

The fact of the matter is this: we can't do anything without nature, and it does everything without us.

We can manipulate it. Like I said. To our advantage better then any other animal. Period.

And remember, its not just diseases. A king cobra can down an elephant. Yet we have developed anti venom for it. And countless other venoms. If our limbs get severely broken, we can repair them. Other animals would probably die to disease or predators. Our children born with birth defects still survive. In the wild they would not. Because it could weaken the genes. But still, animals young born with defects, would be eaten.

 

[Arietans]

Tell them what? That there'd be millions more dead without medical technology?

The medication doesn't make much difference. The parasite adapts too fast, regardless of our wonderous technology

You keep heading to technology. Technology doesn't add to your adaptability, it gives you a crutch to lean on.

It doesn't mean its not fun.

Walking/driving in the sweltering heat in Africa, seeing nothing for two weeks after you spent a few thousand dollars to get here is certainly not my idea of fun. But that wasn't the point. The point was that with all that technology they shot nothing.

Wrong. We have natural predators. If we stayed just naked humans running around, we'd get killed by bears, jumped by gorillas, and bitten by snakes. But we've developed this way. No other mammal has overcome disease either.

But we aren't running around naked. Nature solves this problem with disease. Mammals are hardier to diseases than we are. Disease is our "predator".

Yes, but we're still doing far better for research against diseases. Whereas animals are still dying from Mad Cow disease, Avian flu, and dozens others. They must wait for natural defenses to develop. This difference proves superior intelligence.

But yet they prove more successful. Without doing research a croc has developed anti-bodies without equal. And with all our research we haven't even cured a cold. Nobody is arguing intelligence, I'm arguing adaptability.

And remember, its not just diseases. A king cobra can down an elephant. Yet we have developed anti venom for it. And countless other venoms. If our limbs get severely broken, we can repair them. Other animals would probably die to disease or predators. Our children born with birth defects still survive. In the wild they would not. Because it could weaken the genes. But still, animals young born with defects, would be eaten.

Yet a dog can take a full bite from a Puff Adder in the face and doesn't die. I've seen animals take some serious stings and bites and are just fine a few days later. Stings and bites that would kill a human. Birth defects, however tragic (and they are tragic), don't survive in nature because there is no room for it. Humans with birth defects will also not survive if there was no one to help care.


The argument is not intelligence, its adaptability.

 

[sschind]

Tarantulas kill each other to. Thats an effort.

Bull. Thats stupid. Come one.. Our brains help us VERY much. I don't know about you, but last time I checked, the gorillas were in our cages, not us in theirs.

I don't know, I saw this movie once, the name escapes me, I think it was Planet of the ... something or other.


Seriously, back on topic of this thread. As others have pointed out, stories like this would not have made the headlines if it weren't for Steve Irwins's death. Add to that the number of curiostity seekers out there who never gave stingrays a second thought and now "want to see what they are all about" I'll bet we will be hearing about a few more.

 

[ShadowBlade]

The medication doesn't make much difference. The parasite adapts too fast, regardless of our wonderous technology

You keep heading to technology. Technology doesn't add to your adaptability, it gives you a crutch to lean on.

Yes it does. And its not just modern 'technology' we're talking about. Look at the fertile crescent. Farming would have been ineffective in much of it, but the people there 'channeled' off the rivers to irrigate farmland. Like what.. 4000+ yrs ago? They changed the environment, nature, to their advantage. That had to alter their farming behavior to adapt to the environment. If a polar bear were to be put their, it could not alter the environment to feed itself. It does not posess the intelligence. We humans can 'adapt' our behavior with technology to live in every corner of the globe. NO other animal can.

Walking/driving in the sweltering heat in Africa, seeing nothing for two weeks after you spent a few thousand dollars to get here is certainly not my idea of fun. But that wasn't the point. The point was that with all that technology they shot nothing.

They could fly over in a helicopter... They could use heat sensing equipment at night... But they don't. Its for sport.

But we aren't running around naked. Nature solves this problem with disease. Mammals are hardier to diseases than we are. Disease is our "predator".

Here's a couple pages for you-
http://www.msmosquito.com/WP122802.html
http://www.nwhc.usgs.gov/publications/quarterly_reports/2005_qtr_2.jsp

Tell me, why are these animals dying? We humans have vaccines and cures for diseases like these. Why don't the animals have efficient natural defenses against these if medical technology is so pointless??

But yet they prove more successful. Without doing research a croc has developed anti-bodies without equal. And with all our research we haven't even cured a cold. Nobody is arguing intelligence, I'm arguing adaptability.

We don't need to cure a cold. In 99.9999+% of the time, its not fatal. Unless you have like AIDS. There are diseases we can't cure, but theres lots we can. Look at those pages above. Animals aren't more perfect then us. They have natural immunities we don't have, we have some they don't have. They have lots we don't have, we have medical technology.

Yet a dog can take a full bite from a Puff Adder in the face and doesn't die. I've seen animals take some serious stings and bites and are just fine a few days later. Stings and bites that would kill a human. Birth defects, however tragic (and they are tragic), don't survive in nature because there is no room for it. Humans with birth defects will also not survive if there was no one to help care.

Venoms are very tricky to compare. With our bigger bodies, can be very effective in surviving bites/stings. Things like Black Widows are not as bad as people think. Healthy adult humans can survive bites. Even a dog can. But it seems cats and dogs are much more vulnerable to tarantula venom then humans. Venoms can't be compared too much to prove adaptability. Because the effects of venom on animals depends on size, how the body is figured, how the antibodies are in the body, and other things. We survive venoms some animals can't, whereas other animals can survive much better.

The argument is not intelligence, its adaptability.

Adaptability now? I though it was 'survival of the fittest'. Again, we adapt the environment not ourselves... Our behaviour, not our blood pressure... Our technology, not our fingernail length.

 

[bugmankeith]

Wow cant believe this is still going!

 

[Arietans]

Yes it does. And its not just modern 'technology' we're talking about. Look at the fertile crescent. Farming would have been ineffective in much of it, but the people there 'channeled' off the rivers to irrigate farmland. Like what.. 4000+ yrs ago? They changed the environment, nature, to their advantage. That had to alter their farming behavior to adapt to the environment. If a polar bear were to be put their, it could not alter the environment to feed itself. It does not posess the intelligence. We humans can 'adapt' our behavior with technology to live in every corner of the globe. NO other animal can.

Exactly, animals don't need to.

They could fly over in a helicopter... They could use heat sensing equipment at night... But they don't. Its for sport.

There is a reason why game counts are done in the winter mate. Summer is hunting season and I will give you money if you can spot a trophy from a helicopter by any means.

Venoms are very tricky to compare. With our bigger bodies, can be very effective in surviving bites/stings. Things like Black Widows are not as bad as people think. Healthy adult humans can survive bites. Even a dog can. But it seems cats and dogs are much more vulnerable to tarantula venom then humans. Venoms can't be compared too much to prove adaptability. Because the effects of venom on animals depends on size, how the body is figured, how the antibodies are in the body, and other things. We survive venoms some animals can't, whereas other animals can survive much better.

uhm...... the dog survives a bite with its smaller body and without AV where the same bite would've killed you

Adaptability now? I though it was 'survival of the fittest'. Again, we adapt the environment not ourselves... Our behaviour, not our blood pressure... Our technology, not our fingernail length.

Adaptability will dictate how easily you will survive in a given situation. I.e. survival



You speak of things you see on t.v. Take your technology and go live in the bush for a month. Then come back here

 

[rm90]

I read this report that the temperatures in the ocean are rising due to global warming.. and things are dying such as coral reefs and certain types of fish. Perhaps this change is having something to do with the change of stingrays behavior.. I dont know

 

[ShadowBlade]

You speak of things you see on t.v. Take your technology and go live in the bush for a month. Then come back here

I don't have cable. So no, I don't see this stuff on TV. You don't get the whole picture. If I wanted to survive in the bush using technology, I'd drive a tank into a field, set up whatever I wanted, and an airstrip, where I could have supplies brought in. Put up spotlights all around the camp. And of course, I'd be armed with a couple nice guns. I could set up high D. sound speakers around my camp, and why not some claymores. -See what I mean? Living with just technology is of course possible.
Living to survive, without technology, I would not be able to adapt to the bush. Only North American temperate zones. Where I could survive very long.

uhm...... the dog survives a bite with its smaller body and without AV where the same bite would've killed you

Humans DO NOT require AV to survive black widow venom. Healthy adult humans will get over the bite 90% of the time within a matter of days.
Besides, AV we invented. We're allowed to use it.
Tarantula venom will seriously injure dogs and cats. Not humans.

Adaptability will dictate how easily you will survive in a given situation. I.e. survival

Ah ah. Now lets play it your way. If its adaptability, every human around the globe, (that is capable of it) lets say they are surviving in their given climate. Now, we look at how humans are in every corner of the globe.
If we took crocodiles, gorillas, deer, puff adders, red foxes, and lemmings. And put them around the world. They'd die in most other climate zones in the world. Now again, look at humans, we're all over the world. Now who's adapted the most?

 

[Arietans]

Living to survive, without technology, I would not be able to adapt to the bush. Only North American temperate zones.

That is exactly the point! Without your technology you cannot survive. You are not adaptable without technology.

Humans DO NOT require AV to surive black widow venom. Healthy adult humans will get over the bite 90% of the time within a matter of days.
Besides, AV we invented. We're allowed to use it.
Tarantula venom will seriously injure dogs and cats. Not humans.

But we do require AV for Puff Adders etc. Which a dog does not.

Ah ah. Now lets play it your way. If its adaptability, every human around the globe, (that is capable of it) lets say they are surviving in their given climate. Now, we look at how humans are in every corner of the globe.
If we took crocodiles, gorillas, deer, puff adders, red foxes, and lemmings. And put them around the world. They'd die in most other climate zones in the world. Now again, look at humans, we're all over the world. Now who's adapted the most?

Each animal living in all these environments are better suited for living there. You find crocs almost everywhere. What let's you believe that a Nile Crocodile won't survive in Florida?
Puff adders are the most common venomous snake in Africa. From mountain tops to sea level in some of the most diverse environments out there. What makes you believe it won't survive on another continent? A Rinkhals (snake) can still thermo regulate a body temperature of 32 degrees Celsius when the temperature is around ten degrees Celsius. So even a fairly cold environment will still let it thrive. Red foxes live in the tube tunnels of London right out to the woods, so why not anywhere else?

Its harder for an animal to cross the ocean than it is for us.

 

[ShadowBlade]

That is exactly the point! Without your technology you cannot survive. You are not adaptable without technology.

But we humans made technology! We can use it! If a chimpanzee uses a stick to get fire ants, isn't that 'technology'? Where do you draw the line?

But we do require AV for Puff Adders etc. Which a dog does not.

There's nothing wrong with using AV, its ours. We can survive what dogs can with AV, AND more.

Each animal living in all these environments are better suited for living there. You find crocs almost everywhere. What let's you believe that a Nile Crocodile won't survive in Florida?

I'm very confident it could, but how about Greenland?

Puff adders are the most common venomous snake in Africa. From mountain tops to sea level in some of the most diverse environments out there. What makes you believe it won't survive on another continent?

Alaska?

A Rinkhals (snake) can still thermo regulate a body temperature of 32 degrees Celsius when the temperature is around ten degrees Celsius. So even a fairly cold environment will still let it thrive.

Try antarctica.

Red foxes live in the tube tunnels of London right out to the woods, so why not anywhere else?

How about the middle of the Atlantic Ocean. (We surive there too).

Its harder for an animal to cross the ocean than it is for us.

Doesn't matter. We've adapted to the fact that there are oceans, and altered our behavior to cross them.

 

[Arietans]

This argument is an excercise in futility and I am very sick of it. Believe what you will, think what you will. I care not.

 

[ShadowBlade]

This argument is an excercise in futility and I am very sick of it. Believe what you will, think what you will. I care not.

If thats all you thought of the argument.
You are obviously very set in your opinion. If you care not of this argument, cya.

 

[Arietans]

There isn't much else mate. I have little time to banter words on a meaningless argument.

You are set in yours mate.

Read Sun Tsu's "Art of War" if you get a chance. Overestimating your abilities or underestimating another's is a bad strategy. Thinking that humans are the top is an overestimation. Thinking nature is beneath you is an underestimation.

 

[ShadowBlade]

You are set in yours mate.

The point of an argument is to conflict viewpoints. I very much respect your opinion, and did not end this argument with a bad attitude.

If you believe everything I said is wrong, and everything you said is right.
Then yes, this argument is futile, and there is no point in continuing this argument.

For the record. Like I said, I'm a christian. And I firmly believe man was put in charge of animals. Believe what you will.

 

[Arietans]

I am not angry. really. Not in the least.

We both have conflicting opinions. I find it a good thing. But technically, we are running around in circles.

I apologize if I offended you, but english is my third language and I struggle to make my point sometimes.

 

[ShadowBlade]

We both have conflicting opinions. I find it a good thing. But technically, we are running around in circles.

That's fine, I agree.
Cya

-Sean

 

[thisgal]

You guys need to learn how to converse respectfully rather than argue. Things tend to turn out better this way.