Whats so bad about hybrids?

[gambite]

I dont really understand this. Its one thing to sell un-labeled hybridized T's, which would probably be infertile, but what is so negative about hybridizing your own? The only things I can think of are that there would be a higher risk of the T's killing each other during breeding, and you might get some deformed T's, but the potential for some really beautiful, or at least unique, specimens seems worth the risk. Does it all come down to morals? For example, what if you could mix an A. versicolor with purpea to get a purple Avic with versi's characteristic puffiness, or with a minatrix to get some cool looking butt-stripes? Of course, I know it would be a little more complicated than this, but you get the gist. I am sure experimentation could give some very interesting results.

EDIT: Sorry, I guess I should have searched first. Doing that now. And yes, I know that example was pretty 4th-grade level. It was the first thing to come to my mind.

EDIT 2: I read a lengthy thread about it, and got the impression that a lot of people are 'purists' and dont want any diversity in their T's, or dont think we should be 'interfering with evolution' or some such. I disagree completely. It sounds almost like a pro-life/choice argument. While I agree that it would be quite awful to sell them without telling someone that they are hybridized, and that established species should be maintained, I dont see how me trying it with my own personal T's is so evil. Oh well, I guess this thread is kinda useless now. Maybe some day in the distant future I will stumble on a beautiful hybrid, sell it, and be a millionaire. Or at least finish paying off my college loans. If a mod wants to lock this, go ahead. I certainly dont like flame wars in my threads.

 

[Drachenjager]

I cant believe i am saying this.... Search is your friend.
I hope the admins close this thread soon. We def. dont need another hybridization thread.

 

[problemchildx]

Your example of hybridizing avics even moreso scares me.

 

[Mushroom Spore]

Besides the fact that you need to search, I've never heard anyone say that they've seen a tarantula hybrid that wasn't butt ugly.

 

[cockroach52]

I support you 100%

hybridize away! I don't think many people have tried it to begin with.

Just one of those things like people say you shouldn't handle your T.

whatever man.

 

[Cocoa-Jin]

They eat their children and vote Republican!







ok, j/k...they dont eat their children.:worship:

 

[PhormictopusMan]

I think that the biggest fear is that in a hobby where many species are suspect of being mislabeled as it is, crossbreeding adds one more element to that problem. Unfortunately if you ask it on the public forum you are likely to get a firestorm and probrably won't get a fair answer to your valid question. It is a controversial topic. However, I have experienced that there are some who feel that as long as what you do is clearly labelled then there isn't an issue. Go figure.

I am not sure why people throw up red flags and call for thread closures. I think its silly really, particulary if the question was asked honestly.

--Chris

 

[thedude]

dude do it as long as you don't go and give them out to any one but friends that will not breed them or sell them, id do it just to see what could come out of it y'know as a learning experience to see if you can bring traits out of one or the other, but usually the babies don't have as much color or look like one adult or the other.

i support hybridizing just as long as your not looking to gain any thing else but experience.

 

[dtknow]

Considering it is hard enough to tell avics apart as it is, this is just stupid.

 

[vvx]

I dont really understand this. Its one thing to sell un-labeled hybridized T's, which would probably be infertile, but what is so negative about hybridizing your own?

Hybrids aren't necessarily infertile. If they were it would pretty much be a non-issue completely since you couldn't breed them.

As for your question, it's not a big deal until they leave your possession.

Maybe some day in the distant future I will stumble on a beautiful hybrid, sell it

Like would happen right there. And really, the temptation to sell it would be very strong. Say you breed a brachy hybrid, a cross between boehmei and smithi. You get a nice eggsac and now have 1000 slings. Are you really going to keep 1000 slings? My guess is you would sell/give them away. Sure, you'd have them clearly labeled, though your customers might not and when they sell... someone could confuse it for another brachy, perhaps they think it's b. baumgarteni or another "rare" spider and it gets bred as such.

EDIT 2: I read a lengthy thread about it, and got the impression that a lot of people are 'purists' and dont want any diversity in their T's, or dont think we should be 'interfering with evolution' or some such.

Not really the big issue I think. If you could somehow prevent it from becoming mislabeled down the line you could prevent the contamination of the current species, but you can't so you couldn't. Read up on "florida red rumps". They're simply B. vagans that were established in Florida sometime in the 70's IIRC. B. vagans that come from the florida colony get a higher price because many people feel the current B. vagans in the pet trade has been contaminated by hybridization and is no longer a true B. vagans.

I dont see how me trying it with my own personal T's is so evil. Oh well, I guess this thread is kinda useless now. Maybe some day in the distant future I will stumble on a beautiful hybrid, sell it, and be a millionaire.

As soon as you sell it, it's no longer your own personal T. Though you really should market it as some new rare find and pretend you discovered it while on a field trip in order to make the big dough! You could even get it defined & named after yourself. Then the hybrid haters would buy it at high prices because of it's rarity and you'd have a species named after you! (Obviously this suggestion isn't serious, though one does wonder if this has happened...)

 

[Moltar]

Like has been said above: The biggest problem is that when you breed t's you don't get a few, you get hundreds. Unless you're comfortable culling all of those slings except for the few you keep then don't do it.

To give it a different perspective; you're in MD, the labrador retreiver capitol of the known universe. Go find a labrador breeder and ask them why it really matters if their studs are AKC registered labs or not. If it looks like a lab it must be a lab, right? Same thing with t's except with the numbers you get there could be 50 clutches of misidentified hybrids introduced into the hobby population before somebody realizes their error. Bingo, suddenly nobody in the united states can say for sure whether they have a REAL B. vagans (or whatever) because the hybrids are everywhere now.

It would take only one clutch of fertile hybrids to ruin bloodlines completely within a given market/species. With all the hundreds of beautiful pure specimens available why mess with the genetics? Just search out species you like and take pride in the rarity and beauty of what you have. There's no need to muddy the waters.

Now quick, close the thread before we have bloodshed... lol

 

[Fenrir]

Simple answer is dont hybridize. Reasons are... Should you hybridize and sell off your stock w/o labeling and that hybrid is by some crazy act fertile then GG bloodline. Hybridizing is fine if you keep the offspring and never sell them. Even if you label them as AxB etc. then later down the road when some person new to Ts buys one and forgets what it is, then breeds it with what looks like the closest species then sells it off as that species. This has happened in many a pet trade. Then there is the purist standpoint which is not a petty thing. What happens when a species goes extinct in the wild but is everywhere in captivity, but oh wait some moron screwed up the bloodlines and now we have hybrids and say bye bye to the species. Species do not come back when they go extinct thats it, this may not be a big deal with Ts but look at Mantellas and Dart Frogs, chytrid is wiping them out FAST. We may possibly have a cure for it and can release captive specimens back into their native habitat if the bloodlines are pure. All in all do your research on hybrids before you even say an ignorant thing like "whats so bad about hybrids".

 

[gambite]

You guys brought up some good points. I was kinda in a ranting mood last night, I didnt even think of what to do with all the extras.

 

[imjim]

I am thinking a Red White & Blue arboreal baboon thats eats fruit with venom that causes euphoria ; )

 

[unclechewy]

Maybe I am misinformed, but I thought if a hybrid was fertile, it meant that you do not have two different species, just variations on the same species. Am I wrong in this thinking? If not, then a hybrid that is fertile, is not really a hybrid.

 

[Fenrir]

Thats true if they are from different genuses but some Ts from the same genus can make fertile offspring.

I am thinking a Red White & Blue arboreal baboon thats eats fruit with venom that causes euphoria ; )

I sincerely hope you are joking, if not misinformed people such as you are going to ruin this hobby.

 

[Merfolk]

Creating a new variety from hybridation is far from easy. Traits obtained from dog breeds and al took several generations, then selected individuals were mated, the others destroyed. With a slow growing specie, it would take a lifetime to have an outstanding result.

I have a few hybrids idea I might try (over 800 species, and I found perhaps two combinations that would be worth trying) but please, don't hybrid Avics... this is the one genus that was messed up beyond repair and that come immediately to our mind when we think about the bad sides of hybridizing!

 

[Stylopidae]

Maybe I am misinformed, but I thought if a hybrid was fertile, it meant that you do not have two different species, just variations on the same species. Am I wrong in this thinking? If not, then a hybrid that is fertile, is not really a hybrid.

Yes, you are misinformed.

It means they are not the same species according to one of the many different species concepts. Because they can interbreed doesn't mean they will ever meet in nature.

Take Psalmopoeus cambredgei and P. irminia, for example. Able to produce fertile, viable offspring...however irminia is native to mainland Venezuela and cambredgei is native to Trinidad. They're seperated by miles and miles of water and the chances of them ever producing offspring in nature are approximately the same as me producing viable offspring with this woman:

[YOUTUBE]l27_6jBq-RE[/YOUTUBE]

If you want to know what's so bad about hybridizing, take your eyes off your wallet and research what's been happening with the reptile and orchid hobby in regards to hybridizing. Or just take five minutes and use the search function.

In the orchid hobby, there was at least one species lost in the wild due to hybridizing...that I'm aware of. And I don't even follow orchids so there could very well be more. The species was over-collected to what they thought was extinction, and then hybridized to oblivion in captivity so the line was lost.

A small colony was re-discovered and subsequently wiped out by collectors because...well I hope you're smart enough to figure out this comment.

Like I said...I don't follow orchids, though but the possibility exists for this to happen in the tarantula hobby. Especially with more borders being closed to exportation every year.

If you care about the animals you keep, you will not create un-natural half breeds.

I don't know why I'm typing this anyways...halfbreeders don't seem to give a damn about the consequences of their actions, anyways. If they did, they'd care to do the research before asking questions on a topic that's appeared a thousand damn times before. They'll ask, learn exactly what they're doing and keep their eyes on their wallets without any regard to the consequences of their actions.

There will never be a reason for hybridizing that benefits the hobby. Never. The closest you will ever come is a shitty rationalization for your actions that is merely a transparent coverup for what you will percieve as your benefit.

This hobby is not something you should ever do to make money. Plain and simple. If the only rationalization revolves around your bank account, then why the hell do it?

 

[Merfolk]

Yes, you are misinformed.



Take Psalmopoeus cambredgei and P. irminia, for example. Able to produce fertile, viable offspring...however irminia is native to an island and cambredgei is native to the mainland.

Huh, it's actualy the opposite. irminia is from mainland Venezuela, and cambridgei is from Trinidad island!!!!

 

[Stylopidae]

Huh, it's actualy the opposite. irminia is from mainland Venezuela, and cambridgei is from Trinidad island!!!!

Hey...right you are.

Fixed the mistake.

Thanks for pointing that out
Let's see if someone can spot the much larger error I threw in there to make a point.