US government moves to ban all pythons and boas

[jenniferinny]

Mushroom spore, if this was a bill to ban moving tarantulas between state lines, would you care then?
A lot less people care about tarantulas then care about snakes. Significantly more people keep snakes then tarantulas.
Probably the snake enthusiasts will beat this without your assistance.

The only way we can beat this kind of legislation is by working together. I know you think that this will stop with large snakes. If past examples are any indication, I would have to say that belief is erroneous.

Why?
Easy, because bills like this don't work. When they don't work, the law gets 'improved' on.

Take for example the lovely state of NY.
Here was the law passed in 2000
http://www.scalesandtails.com/pdf/Law.pdf
It completely banned all the large monitors and larger snakes, however, exceptions were made for those that could prove the had purchased the animal before a specific date.
Then, the city of Rochester brought about more exotic bans including banning hedgehogs..
http://www.scalesandtails.com/pdf/Rochester Law.pdf

I had friends of mine informed that they were no longer grandfathered in just a few months ago. He ended up having to remove all of his snakes and be inspected to make sure they were gone.

If you read the wording of the bill, the purpose is to protect wildlife by no longer allowing them to be brought into an area that doesn't have them already. The whole point is to put a stranglehold on large snake ownership. They know an outright ban would never pass nationally. If they pass it with those guys easily enough, it will be easy to add more species later. Who knows, maybe they'll do what happened with Texas and tack everything else on at the last minute.

Perhaps better read a link before you post it Mushroom,
"the slippery slope is an argument for the likelihood of one event or trend given another. The slippery slope can be valid or fallacious."

From what I've seen with reptile and other pet law, this particular "slippery slope" argument has past experience speaking for it validity.

 

[rollinkansas]

As many as there are now, I'd find it hard to believe we DON'T have genetic variety available right here. I am of course not a breeder or geneticist, I just know there's a heck of a lot of reptiles to go around.

For those of us who arent keeping the everyday petstore animals, and keep more exotic/rare reptiles, youd be surprised how limited the genepools are for many of these species. Especially Phelsuma now is a big one.

So while there may be enough genetic variety for ball python and leopard gecko keepers, there is definitely not enough for those of us keeping more obsure species, that not many people are working with.

 

[rollinkansas]

Boas and pythons are hardly the majority of animals sold at these shows, why would the shows stop entirely because of this?

Id like you to show me a reptile show where less than 50% of the animals are ball pythons. The majority of reptile show animals are corn/milk snakes, ball pythons, and leopard geckos. Have you been to big reptile shows such as NARBC, etc? Without pythons and boas, the shows would be 90% smaller than they are already.

 

[Arachnomore]

I know thats why you need to spread the word, inform your favorite breeders and petstores, we need to mobilize so this does not come to pass.

Your completely missing the point. What if they imported dogs and cats from out in the wild.... and they stopped doing that. Do you think I would have a problem find a snake by going to a big city and finding a local BREEDER? :?

 

[jenniferinny]

Isaac, maybe you're lucky enough where a local breeder in any species you may happen to want is already available to you and will be able to keep breeding even without out of state business.
That's not the case for many of us. Almost any pet I get comes from out of state. I've found very few local breeders for anything in terms of reptiles. I don't want to be limited to my local area. If I want a special morph that someone only has in Pennsylvania, I want to be able to get it.
"We, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (Service or We), are reviewing available biological and economic information on constrictor snakes in the Python, Boa and Eunectes genera for possible addition to the list of injurious wildlife under the Lacey Act. An injurious wildlife listing would prohibit the importation into, or transportation between, States, the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico, or any territory or possession of the United States by any means"

Wow, wait a second, this is even scarier..
Has anyone actually read the Lacey act?
http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stusfd16usca3371.htm

Being added to the Lacey act won't just affect transport between states. That's just one of the things it will affect..
"The Lacey Act provides that it is unlawful for any person to import, export, transport, sell, receive, acquire, or purchase any fish or wildlife or plant taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of any law, treaty, or regulation of the United States or in violation of any Indian tribal law whether in interstate or foreign commerce. Violation of this federal act can result in civil penalties up to $10,000 per each violation or maximum criminal sanctions of $20,000 in fines and/or up to five years imprisonment. All plants or animals taken in violation of the Act are subject to forfeiture as well as all vessels, vehicles, aircraft, and other equipment used to aid in the importing, exporting, transporting, selling, receiving, acquiring, or purchasing of fish or wildlife or plants in a criminal violation of this chapter for which a felony conviction is obtained where the owner should have known of the illegal transgression."

Umm, am I mistaken here or does the Lacey act not even allow you to sell or buy them?

 

[Arachnomore]

I still download music.... I guess it kinda relates to this. If people want something they will find a way. In mass ammounts there is really nothing someone can do. Sending a tarantula in the mail is discrete.. they don't open your package.

 

[Bigboy]

I'd also like to add that Genus Python, Boa and Eunectes does not encompass all of family Boidae, only a tiny portion of it.

 

[Brian S]

The Feds are not out to get us. They are not wringing their hands and cackling over ways to make people who own reptiles cry.

Boy they sure have you brainwashed! You otta know by now that it only takes 1 thing to get the wheels rolling and I fear this will be no exception. We need to stand against this 100%.

 

[Mushroom Spore]

Boy they sure have you brainwashed!

I don't believe in paranoia and oh-god-the-sky-is-falling panic attacks and OH GOD IT WILL ALL SPIN OUT OF CONTROL victimhood fantasies, no. I don't believe the government is out to persecute me for my hobbies out of nothing but the sheer meanness of their mean old hearts. If that makes me brainwashed, then I guess I'd better invest in some tinfoil hats.

 

[edesign]

Wow, wait a second, this is even scarier..
Has anyone actually read the Lacey act?
http://www.animallaw.info/statutes/stusfd16usca3371.htm

Being added to the Lacey act won't just affect transport between states. That's just one of the things it will affect..
"The Lacey Act provides that it is unlawful for any person to import, export, transport, sell, receive, acquire, or purchase any fish or wildlife or plant taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of any law, treaty, or regulation of the United States or in violation of any Indian tribal law whether in interstate or foreign commerce. Violation of this federal act can result in civil penalties up to $10,000 per each violation or maximum criminal sanctions of $20,000 in fines and/or up to five years imprisonment. All plants or animals taken in violation of the Act are subject to forfeiture as well as all vessels, vehicles, aircraft, and other equipment used to aid in the importing, exporting, transporting, selling, receiving, acquiring, or purchasing of fish or wildlife or plants in a criminal violation of this chapter for which a felony conviction is obtained where the owner should have known of the illegal transgression."

Umm, am I mistaken here or does the Lacey act not even allow you to sell or buy them?

Yes, you are mistaken...reread the wording of the bill...

Provided you are not moving one of these snakes across state lines or buying one in an area where it is outright banned it won't affect you (in a legal manner that is). It says nothing about buying from a local breeder, it says nothing about keeping them...just says you can't import them or move them across state lines. You could drive all over the state with a 10 foot boa in your backseat and nothing could be done...you could drive right up to the border of your state and drape it around your neck and they could do nothing...but if you step over that border then you're in violation of the wording of that bill. Now, someone would have to see you doing it and report it to get caught though and of all the state borders I have driven across that was not in to another country (the only one I have been through is Canada lol)...this includes OR, WA, MT, WY, KA, OK, TX, LA, AR, MS, MO, IL, WI, and MN...not once have I seen any law enforcement sitting around looking for people

Do I agree with it? Not in its entirety but I also agree with MS that there is a major problem with people just dumping these animals in to an ecosystem they are not native to and causing a problem. Should the entire hobby be punished? No, but that's how the cookie crumbles 90% of the time (percentage stated at random )...

 

[edesign]

I don't believe in paranoia and oh-god-the-sky-is-falling panic attacks and OH GOD IT WILL ALL SPIN OUT OF CONTROL victimhood fantasies, no. I don't believe the government is out to persecute me for my hobbies out of nothing but the sheer meanness of their mean old hearts. If that makes me brainwashed, then I guess I'd better invest in some tinfoil hats.

I have some you can buy...made to order though. Brian has a valid point as do others, this slippery slope goes both ways and has been proven both ways throughout history on all kinds of scales. Nothing wrong with a little paranoia and if you don't think politicians love to get caught up in political omg-the-sky-is-falling nonsense I'd like to know what cave you've been hiding in because apparently there's either some really cool bats, snakes, or ghosts living in it

 

[Brian S]

I don't believe in paranoia and oh-god-the-sky-is-falling panic attacks and OH GOD IT WILL ALL SPIN OUT OF CONTROL victimhood fantasies, no. I don't believe the government is out to persecute me for my hobbies out of nothing but the sheer meanness of their mean old hearts. If that makes me brainwashed, then I guess I'd better invest in some tinfoil hats.

Then you better start investing! The govt loves sheeple like you! Someone that believes that they are here to protect and provide for you. Big Brother is watching you...well no he is watching me since I wont take his crap unlike you.

 

[Mushroom Spore]

You just used "sheeple" in a serious context. Please tell me you're in high school.

No, I do not mindlessly worship the government, but I also don't get off on running around shouting about THE MAN IS OUT TO KEEP US DOWN FOR NO READILY APPARENT REASON! THE MAN! THE MAN!!1

I help protest plenty of things, none of which are any of your business, but I don't think losing my cool and flailing about the gubb'mint is going to help any cause I do believe in.

 

[Tleilaxu]

It seems you mindlessly follow them on this, no offence but if this gets passed it will destroy a good portion of the hobby and ALL states will be affected. It also does not take into consideration that the said snakes cannot live up north or south west in the desert enviroments.

I am so with BrianS on this issue.

 

[Mushroom Spore]

It seems you mindlessly follow them on this

Please demonstrate where I have done anything of the sort. Last I checked, I spent my time in this thread making some very long posts with my thoughts on the matter, and my reasons for thinking what I do--and I do have reasons, amazingly enough. Or was it not you that said the following?

You made some excellent points there though I disagree with this one:

You're free to disagree with me, but please leave me out of Brian's conspiracy theories.

 

[edesign]

You just used "sheeple" in a serious context. Please tell me you're in high school.

odd...i started using that phrase long after high school, I doubt I coined it (I think I may have been the first to use it on AB, not positive) but I was unaware there was a high school connotation attached to it You're starting to sound like a total jackass whereas before you had a bit of genuinely good points, some of which I agreed with, some I didn't, but I was listening. Don't become like Metallica and retire this thread long after the peak of your brilliantness (i.e., your good points) and be remembered as somebody who wound up losing their cool and flailing around about how people are so stupid if they think something bad could come of this personally, I don't see anyone flailing around or losing their cool (ok, just you, ice cubes are in the freezer unless you're lucky enough to live in the snow then you can just step outside for a moment)...just making observations based on previous FACTUAL events that have transpired in our gov't and around the world.

Perhaps you are still in high school (I checked your profile to see but all it says is "f"...) if you don't think there's even a chance of a bill like this starting a snowball effect...worked great for the Nazis, could work great here too albeit for a far different purpose (in this subject anyway). Wake up, you are being ignorant and the government DOES love sheeple like you

btw, I love that last bit about how you protest plenty of things...but it's nobody's business (not that we really care), is that like silent protesting or something?

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showpost.php?p=1077619&postcount=27

Ah yes, I used to write letters to my congressman/woman...I gave up after getting three or four generic response letters with stamped signatures Unless you're a famous name chances are those letters won't be of much use either...I"m not saying don't do it, but don't fool yourself in to thinking they really take them in to consideration (or is that what "silent protesting" is? I never knew I was a part of that )

 

[edesign]

You're free to disagree with me, but please leave me out of Brian's conspiracy theories.

you should try cracking open a history book sometime, the mushies can only teach you so much this isn't a thread to go in to detail but i'm sure google will yield many results as well. Aliens using cows as host bodies to take over the world is a conspiracy theory, realizing that many governments have used similar legislation as stepping stones towards a bigger picture is NOT. I can think of one major gov't that did just such a thing in the not so distant past...and it led to massive devastation around the globe. I'm sure some people alive during that regime also thought the same as you..."oh, this is just a little thing...nothing further will develop." Oh how wrong they were...

 

[Brian S]

Edesign, We are obviously wasting our time talking to people like Mushroom here. She or he(?) is obviously not interested in listening to what we have to say.
The term "sheeple" was orginally used in the WH to describe the govts "sheep people" who go along with everything the govt dishes out to us.
MS, I am not in High School and in fact I will be 40 y.o. this year and in my 40 years of being on this planet I have been watching the govt take away alot of our rights! So yeah call me making up conspiricy theories all you want but I am going on what I have been seeing in my lifetime.
How old are you? Obviously not old enuff to know any better

 

[Tleilaxu]

@MushroomSpore yes you did indeed make some good points while I dont agree with them they were well thought out.

However the way I see it is that if you tacitly or openly support ANY part of this bill you are just opening the door(Albeit just a crack) to further bans down the road.(Which if history serves will happen in fairly rapid succession) What I think you are missing is that their are people in the government who truely do not understand what they are doing or have an intense hatred/fear of our beloved reptiles. They are also unwilling to be swayed by anything OTHER than a massive negitive responce.

 

[Mushroom Spore]

You're starting to sound like a total jackass whereas before you had a bit of genuinely good points, some of which I agreed with, some I didn't, but I was listening.

I got a little fed up after the whole OMG YOU'RE A MINDLESS DOG OF THE GOVERNMENT and general irrationality kept creeping into the discussion, I admit it.

And yes, "sheeple" really is kinda infantile. It's the sort of word I've never heard out of anyone but teenagers trying too hard to hate on the establishment.

personally, I don't see anyone flailing around or losing their cool

Is the following an example of calm, civil, mature discussion to you then?

Then you better start investing! The govt loves sheeple like you! Someone that believes that they are here to protect and provide for you. Big Brother is watching you...well no he is watching me since I wont take his crap unlike you.

Perhaps you are still in high school (I checked your profile to see but all it says is "f"...)

I'm well out of college, actually.

btw, I love that last bit about how you protest plenty of things...but it's nobody's business (not that we really care), is that like silent protesting or something?

Ah yes, I used to write letters to my congressman/woman...I gave up after getting three or four generic response letters with stamped signatures Unless you're a famous name chances are those letters won't be of much use either...I"m not saying don't do it, but don't fool yourself in to thinking they really take them in to consideration (or is that what "silent protesting" is? I never knew I was a part of that )

I'm not sure where you got any of this or why you ran with it. I meant that any politics and activism I take part in is completely off-topic to this thread and I'm not going to derail it any further. My personal life when it comes to things other than animals is absolutely not the business of this forum.

I can think of one major gov't that did just such a thing in the not so distant past...and it led to massive devastation around the globe. I'm sure some people alive during that regime also thought the same as you..."oh, this is just a little thing...nothing further will develop." Oh how wrong they were...

That's twice you've Godwin'd yourself. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law ) If you had any real meat to your argument, you wouldn't have to resort to cheap easy shots like NAZIS NAZIS NAZIS over and over in the process.

I'm done here. You guys have long forgotten civility and how to make any kind of argument besides relentlessly belittling your opponent, and I'm not going to be bothered to remember your manners for you.