Ts as feeders for other Ts

[MetalheadRAM]

Theres actually a thread

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=176977&page=2

where freezing is discussed. This thread is about feeding Ts to Ts though. Weather freezing is the best way or not. I think most would agree that its better than being eaten slowly.

 

[possumburg]

Tarantulas are cold-blooded so they will expire much more quickly than would a warm-blooded animal.

 

[Bill S]

freezing an invertebrate is the most humane way of euthanizing them.

were is the data to support this?just because it is the most recognized doesnt mean it is the best way.

The obvious question to throw back at you is "Where's the data to support your conclusions?"

In warm blooded animals the body struggles to maintain a standard body temperature and cranks up the metabolic system to do this when confronted by freezing conditions. And there is a complex nervous system to deal with. By contrast, cold blooded animals simply slow down their metabolic rates when temperatures drop. Their nervous systems are simpler to begin with, and as metabolic rates drop the nervous system responds slower and more weakly. The whole point behind the hibernation of cold blooded animals is that they go into a torpor and peacefully "sleep". Even warm-blooded animals that hibernate do something very similar - the body shifts its metabolic rate to being more like a cold-blooded animal, allowing body temperature to drop and dulling all metabolic responses, thus allowing the animal to peacefully "sleep".

Mr. Irminia, you'd do well to investigate the science behind your accusations before you launch into you outrages.

 

[blooms]

personally i think that freezing is the best way for the enthusiast, you put the T in the freezer and shut the door. You do not se the spiders reaction to this method and thus makes it humane in the fact that you did not see it suffer.

Reminds me of something a philosophy professor once asked...."If a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to hear it, did it make a sound?"

 

[xhexdx]

Reminds me of something a philosophy professor once asked...."If a tree falls in a forest and no one is there to hear it, did it make a sound?"

The answer is no, but that's another discussion for another subforum.

 

[Fran]

The answer is no, but that's another discussion for another subforum.

I hope you are kidding with that one

 

[xhexdx]

I am most certainly not kidding.

Sound waves aren't actually sound until your eardrum processes them.

If no eardrums are there to process the sound wave, there is no sound. Only vibration.

 

[Fran]

If you dont consider the sound waves ,sound...Ok. But the waves are there wheter you hear them or not.
So the tree hitting the ground will make a sound.
Ps: In physiscs, any form of propagation that involves vibration through elastic waves, wether you are able to hear them or not, is sound.

"Mechanic and Waves", a subject of the first year of Physics.

 

[xhexdx]

Sure, it'll make a sound wave, but the sound wave isn't sound until it hits an eardrum.

All this off-topic crap is just gonna get deleted anyway. Start a thread in TWH, Fran. :}

 

[Fran]

Sure, it'll make a sound wave, but the sound wave isn't sound until it hits an eardrum.

All this off-topic crap is just gonna get deleted anyway. Start a thread in TWH, Fran. :}

Read back.

 

[blooms]

you guys are missing the point of my post. I was responding to the following quote.

personally i think that freezing is the best way for the enthusiast, you put the T in the freezer and shut the door. You do not se the spiders reaction to this method and thus makes it humane in the fact that you did not see it suffer.

The implication of this quote is that it's humane to freeze the spider die because you don't see the spider die, hence the tree in the forest analogy. In the tree in the forest analogy, whether or not someone perceives the sound, empirically we know that a sound was produced. Likewise, can we say that just because we didn't see the spider suffer meant that it didn't suffer?

 

[jebbewocky]

you guys are missing the point of my post. I was responding to the following quote.



The implication of this quote is that it's humane to freeze the spider die because you don't see the spider die, hence the tree in the forest analogy. In the tree in the forest analogy, whether or not someone perceives the sound, empirically we know that a sound was produced. Likewise, can we say that just because we didn't see the spider suffer meant that it didn't suffer?

They're not saying they agree with the guy, they're saying you gave a bad analogy, because sound is not sound until it is perceived. Up to that point, it is vibration, not sound. So if someone is not there, then, empirically, there is no sound.
Anyway, spiders don't have a capacity for suffering as far as we can tell.

 

[AbraCadaver]

If a fat person falls in the forest, and no ones there, do the trees laugh?

 

[Mr. Irminia]

The obvious question to throw back at you is "Where's the data to support your conclusions?"

In warm blooded animals the body struggles to maintain a standard body temperature and cranks up the metabolic system to do this when confronted by freezing conditions. And there is a complex nervous system to deal with. By contrast, cold blooded animals simply slow down their metabolic rates when temperatures drop. Their nervous systems are simpler to begin with, and as metabolic rates drop the nervous system responds slower and more weakly. The whole point behind the hibernation of cold blooded animals is that they go into a torpor and peacefully "sleep". Even warm-blooded animals that hibernate do something very similar - the body shifts its metabolic rate to being more like a cold-blooded animal, allowing body temperature to drop and dulling all metabolic responses, thus allowing the animal to peacefully "sleep".

Mr. Irminia, you'd do well to investigate the science behind your accusations before you launch into you outrages.

actually i have come to no conclusions,i asked a question relating to weather freezing a t is the most humane way of dissposing of them.this question was also about whether tarantulas feel pain from this.Further more i did not launch into an outrage , there was nothing i said that could be taken as rude or angry, it was simply a conversation to me.

 

[Bill S]

actually i have come to no conclusions,i asked a question relating to weather freezing a t is the most humane way.....

Hmmmm..... I would have guessed the following were conclusions that you had posted:

IMO this is not a more humane way to kill anything. Personally i think that being frozen to death would be a painfull way to die and would wish this on no creature.

IMO t's do feel pain and freezing would not kill them quickly, they would be in extreme distress before they finally die.

personally i think that freezing is the best way for the enthusiast, you put the T in the freezer and shut the door. You do not se the spiders reaction to this method and thus makes it humane in the fact that you did not see it suffer.

 

[Mr. Irminia]

since when do you need data to voice your opinion. the reason i think t's could feel pain is there obvious response to an injury, this leads me to believe that they could , if this has been scientifically proven otherwise please let me know.

 

[Mr. Irminia]

i also find it hard to believe that an animals natural instinct to hibernate is in anyway similar to being suddenly tossed in the freezer.

 

[Fran]

They're not saying they agree with the guy, they're saying you gave a bad analogy, because sound is not sound until it is perceived. Up to that point, it is vibration, not sound. So if someone is not there, then, empirically, there is no sound.
Anyway, spiders don't have a capacity for suffering as far as we can tell.

"Ps: In physiscs, any form of propagation that involves vibration through elastic waves, wether you are able to hear them or not, is sound.

"Mechanic and Waves", a subject of the first year of Physics."

 

[Bill S]

since when do you need data to voice your opinion.

You don't. You can voice completely unfounded conclusions anytime you want and they will be taken as such. I'm only pointing out that despite your claim to the contrary, you have in fact posted conclusions.

the reason i think t's could feel pain is there obvious response to an injury, this leads me to believe that they could , if this has been scientifically proven otherwise please let me know

The way science works it that you pose a hypothesis and then do the research to prove it. You are claiming that tarantulas feel pain from cold - now all you need to do is present evidence that supports that. Those arguing here that freezing is humane are basing that on the known physiology of tarantulas and cold blooded animals in general. Admittedly they could do specific research to further demonstrate their case, but at least they are starting with good science behind them.

i also find it hard to believe that an animals natural instinct to hibernate is in anyway similar to being suddenly tossed in the freezer.

Maybe some biology classes would help? Especially ones that relate to physiology? What we're looking at here isn't an instinct (to hibernate), but an animal's physiological reactions to environmental conditions. The whole issue of putting a tarantula into the freezer is NOT to see if we can trigger an instinctual response to hibernate. It's to use the physiology of hibernation to humanely kill the animal.

 

[blooms]

I have to agree with Fran on this one. Sound is not a subjective thing, which depends on a hearer's ability to perceive it, rather it's an objectively verifiable thing that exists regardless of whether it is perceived. Getting back to the point, whether or not your tarantula suffers while it freezes has nothing to do with whether you witness it freeze or not.