Tityus toxicity?

Michiel

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Jeez, French People. :rolleyes: :D

I hear what you are saying freedom fry. {D

However, as much as I respect your knowledge and opinions, you are not the god of all things scorpions! There are many researchers out there with different opinions that are knowledgeable as well. So while you may considers all Tityus 5 of 5, or 4 of 4, or 3 of 3; others do not. When discussing their ratings, regardless of agreement, we should at least represent their opinions correctly.

The only analogy I can come with now is this:

You walk into a map makers house, and look at his giant wall map of germany. Then you proceed to tell your partner that he is a horrible map maker because Dusseldorf and Berlin should be one inch apart on a map, not six.
Am I not the scorpiongod who is always right??? Damn, I thought I was :) LOL...I support your statement about representing different opinions.....
I suppose there are Tityus species that aren't as venomous as others, but most in the hobby are highly venomous. Because you are so reluctant to bow down to the almighty scorpion god, I will make a list of the species in the hobby, and see if I can find the scientific publications about their toxicity and post it here :)

Take care, Michiel (PS. I am Dutch, you know The Netherlands, "and stuff")
 

scorpionmom

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Am I not the scorpiongod who is always right??? Damn, I thought I was :) LOL...I support your statement about representing different opinions.....
I suppose there are Tityus species that aren't as venomous as others, but most in the hobby are highly venomous. Because you are so reluctant to bow down to the almighty scorpion god, I will make a list of the species in the hobby, and see if I can find the scientific publications about their toxicity and post it here :)

Take care, Michiel (PS. I am Dutch, you know The Netherlands, "and stuff")
Michiel, that would be a good idea. It would be helpful. We would greatly appreciate you doing all the work.:)
 

Michiel

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My list is almost finished, and then my friends, Nomad will have to apologize for his ignorant remarks and for suggesting that the things I said in this thread are "my opinion" which was obviously not the case.
"opinions" :D muhuhahahahhaha, facts is what I am talking about....

Nomad, you want "opinions" of other scientist? You'll have them tomorrow in the form of a non-complete reference list where you can read for yourself how limited those scales are, you "scale worshipper" you :D

Scales only have an indicating function for hobbyist and yes, in that way they serve a purpose, for science, it is not adequate.....:rolleyes: pffffff need a beer now....
 

Michiel

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This has cost me a couple of hours, but it is for a good cause, namely pointing out that Tityusspecies are dangerous, regardless of what their number is on popular scales, and of course to prove that Nomad is wrong :D LOL

1. This list consists of the Tityus species that are kept in the hobbycircuit. There are a couple more species that I know of, but these are not commonly kept;
2. I am not a academically schooled scientist, chemist or toxicologist. I am interested, however, in scorpionism in general and the symptoms that are produced in humans in cases of scorpionism. I study neotropical scorpions, especially from the Guyana's and I work in the Netherlands Centre for Biodiversity in my free time. Currently working on scorpions from Suriname;
3. Tityus obscurus has the lowest LD50 value, and on a 1-5 scale, one could say that it is a 3 or 4 at most. It's venom, however has caused severe systemic effects and there are reported cases in which patients died.
4. In general children and minors, the elderly and the sick react more severe to envenomations. Read the papers listed below for symptomology.
5. All the papers in the referencelist can be found on the net. Some easier than others, but you'll get there.

Genus Tityus

Subgenus Tityus LD50
T.bahiensis 1.062 mg/ kg *
T.serrulatus 1.160 mg/ kg *
T.stigmurus 0.773 mg/ kg *
T.costatus 1.590 mg/ kg *
T.trivittatus 2.5 mg/ kg *
T.fasciolatus 3.646 mg/ kg *
T.confluens 0.7 mg/ kg **
T.ecuadorensis not found


Subgenus Atreus LD50
T.asthenes 6.1 mg/ kg *
T.obscurus 12.136 mg/ kg * +
T.magnimanus not found *
T.zulianus 1.54 mg/ kg *
T.discrepans 2.51 mg/ kg *
T.trinitatis 2.00 mg/ kg *
T.nematochirus not found *
T.tamayoi not found *

Subgenus Archaeotityus LD50
T.bastosi not found
T.silvestris not found *
T.cf. ocelote not found

(*) means mentioned in the checklist of LK Ross, see below for reference
(**) means not mentioned in the checklist, but is reported in later, in more recent publications, see below
(+) Tityus obscurus (= Tityus cambridgei, Tityus paraensis etc. see COZIJN, M.A.C. 2009.)

References
ROSS, LK Concise Checklist of the Buthid scorpions of medical significance

BORGES, A & SOUSA, L. De 2006. Escorpionsimo de Venezuela: Una aproximacion molecular, inmunologica y epidemiologica para su estudio Revista Faculdad de Farmacia Vol 69

BORGES, A et al 2004. Isolation, molecular cloning and functional characterization of a novel β-toxin from the Venezuelan scorpion: Tityus zulianus. Toxicon 43:2004 671-684

COZIJN, M.A.C. 2009. Tityus obscurus (Gervais, 1843) species biography. The Scorpion Files-species biographies. Available at:
http://www.ntnu.no/ub/scorpionfiles/g_madagascariensis_biography.pdf

DIEGO-GARCIA, E. et al. The Brazilian scorpion Tityus costatus (Karsch): genes, peptides and function Toxicon 45:2005 273-283

EICKSTEDT, V.R.D. von et al. 2008. Evolution of scorpionism by T.bahiensis (Perty) and T.serrulatus (Lutz & Mello) and geographical distribution of the two species in the state of Sao Paolo, Brazil J. Venom. Anim.Toxins

EICKSTEDT, V.R.D. 1983-84. Escorpionismo deTityus stigmurus no nordeste de Brazil (Scorpiones:Buthidae). Mem.Inst. Butantan 47-48

SOUSA, L. De et al. 2000. An epidemiological review of scorpions stings in Venezuela: The Northeastern region. J. Venom. Anim.Toxins, vol 6.

SOUSA, L. De et al. 2007.Scorpionism due to Tityus neoespartanus (Scorpiones-Buthidae) in Margarita Island, Northeastern Venezuela. Revista de sociedade Brasileira de Medicina Tropical 40 (6): 681-685

STETSON, R.E. 2005. Accidentes con escorpiones en la ciudad de Posadas, provincial de Misiones, Argentina, durante el ano 2002. Biota Neotropica v5.

SILVA, T.F. et al.2005 Avaliacao da DL50 e edema pulmonar induzido pelo veneno de Tityus serrulatus (Scorpiones:Buthidae)procedente da Bahia, Brasil. Biota Neotropica v5

GOMEZ C., J.P. & OTERO P., R. 2007. Ecoepidemiologica de los escorpiones de importancia medica en Colombia. Rev Fac Nac Salud Pública. 25(1): 50-60

GOMEZ, J.P. et al 2010. Picaduras por escorpion Tityus asthenes en Mutata, Colombia: aspectos epidemiologicos, clinocos y toxinologicos. Biomedica 2010;30:126-39

LOURENCO, WR et al. 2008. The evolution of scorpionism in Brazil in recent years. J. Venom. Anim.Toxins

REYES-LUGO, M. & RODRIGUEZ-ACOSTA, A. 2001. Scorpion envenoming by Tityus discrepans Pocock, 1897 in the Northern coastal region of Venezuela. Revista Scientifica, FCV- LUZ Vol XI, No.5 412-417

RIBEIRO de ALBUQUERQUE, C.M. et al. Escorpionismo por Tityus pusillus Pocock, 1893 (Scorpiones:Buthidae) no estado de Pernambuco. Revista de sociedade Brasileira de Medicina Tropical 42 (2): 206-208

RIBEIRO de ALBUQUERQUE, C.M. et al. 2009. Tityus stigmurus Thorell, 1876 (Scorpiones:Buthidae): response to chemical control and understanding of scorpionism among the population. Revista de sociedade Brasileira de Medicina Tropical 42 (3): 255-259

WAGNER, S. et al. 2003. Purification and primary structure determination of Tf4, the first bioactive peptide from the venom of the Brazilian scorpion Tityus fasciolatus. Toxicon 41:2003 737-745

Regards,

Michiel Cozijn
 

Michiel

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Wow, Michiel, thanks! Still don't think I'm ready for Tityus spp. yet.:)
You're welcome! We all started at some point with Tityus, you'll feel/ know when the time is right ;) Some species are somewhat difficult to keep and some are more defensive then others, just ask around a bit, when you want to keep these species...

Cheers, Michiel
 

Nomadinexile

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This has cost me a couple of hours, but it is for a good cause, namely pointing out that Tityusspecies are dangerous, regardless of what their number is on popular scales, and of course to prove that Nomad is wrong :D LOL1. This list consists of the Tityus species that are kept in the hobbycircuit. There are a couple more species that I know of, but these are not commonly kept;
2. I am not a academically schooled scientist, chemist or toxicologist. I am interested, however, in scorpionism in general and the symptoms that are produced in humans in cases of scorpionism. I study neotropical scorpions, especially from the Guyana's and I work in the Netherlands Centre for Biodiversity in my free time. Currently working on scorpions from Suriname;
3. Tityus obscurus has the lowest LD50 value, and on a 1-5 scale, one could say that it is a 3 or 4 at most. It's venom, however has caused severe systemic effects and there are reported cases in which patients died. 4. In general children and minors, the elderly and the sick react more severe to envenomations. Read the papers listed below for symptomology.
5. All the papers in the referencelist can be found on the net. Some easier than others, but you'll get there.

Genus Tityus

Subgenus Tityus LD50
T.bahiensis 1.062 mg/ kg *
T.serrulatus 1.160 mg/ kg *
T.stigmurus 0.773 mg/ kg *
T.costatus 1.590 mg/ kg *
T.trivittatus 2.5 mg/ kg *
T.fasciolatus 3.646 mg/ kg *
T.confluens 0.7 mg/ kg **
T.ecuadorensis not found


Subgenus Atreus LD50
T.asthenes 6.1 mg/ kg *
T.obscurus 12.136 mg/ kg * +
T.magnimanus not found *
T.zulianus 1.54 mg/ kg *
T.discrepans 2.51 mg/ kg *
T.trinitatis 2.00 mg/ kg *
T.nematochirus not found *
T.tamayoi not found *

Subgenus Archaeotityus LD50
T.bastosi not found
T.silvestris not found *
T.cf. ocelote not found


HA! You just proved my point!

First, you have more than one third of listed species, without values. Secondly, the OP was asking about all Tityus, not just commonly kept. This is a small percentage of Tityus. :razz:

Thirdly, no one is saying there are non-dangerous species of Tityus. Which brings up some of my original point that scales are important. Per page 247 in Scorpions of the World, level 3 and 4's descriptions respectively:
toxic species, possibly causing more-or-less serious damage
very toxic species, possibly lethal

Unless you can prove that all Tityus species are possibly lethal, you have not proven your point! :p Also, try and include percentage of population allergic or specifics of such in deaths!

These are the scorpions of Algieria from scorpion fauna:

http://eycb.pagesperso-orange.fr/scorpions/AFAlgerie.htm

Those are some pretty dangerous scorpions! They average 32,000 REPORTED stings a year. The average around 140 deaths. That is not an insignificant rate or number of deaths. However, it is still far less than total deaths in the U.S. from aspirin every year. Dangerous is Dangerous, but it can still be relative!

---------- Post added at 05:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:26 PM ----------

Am I not the scorpiongod who is always right???

Michiel (PS. I am Dutch, you know The Netherlands, "and stuff")
No :p

Ah yes, how could I forget.. The land of windmills, tulips, speed skaters, wooden shoes and half naked orange soccer fans. :p
 
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Michiel

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Hi,

If we are going to bring things like allergies into the equasion, all scorpions are possibly lethal. Yes the OP was talking about all Tityusspecies, but since he mentioned that he wanted to start keeping them, he can only get his hands on those that are in the hobbycircuit and not on the ones that aren't. :D No use of making a post here with a list of all 190 species or more and their toxicity when you will never see 160 of those species.:D
I don't think it will cost me a lot of effort to prove all Tityus are possibly lethal like you wrote. But that is semantics I admit.

I don't understand how you can write that in Erics' book (which is intended for hobbyist according to the authors. Did you read that part?)3 means : toxic species "possibly cousing more or less serious damage" (can it be anymore vague?) and 4: very toxic, possibly lethal, and talk about relative danger at the same time, because the danger of scorpionism is not relative, that's why I added reference list. You are simply reacting to the text of my post, did you read any of the papers? And yes, of one third I couldn't find the LD50, but from those 7, 4 are mentioned as medical significant in the list of LK Ross, see reference list.
I know Luc Ross and if there' s one thing I am sure of, is that he done his homework very well and consulted several scorpiologists like Fet, Prendini etc to write that list.
Finally, yes mortality rates are low in adults, less then 5% bla bla, but it is higher in children, but it sucks when you are one of the 5%, I think we can agree to that.:D

I like a good debate, and you obviously like that too, but let's stop debating just for the sake of the debate.
We should grab a beer and talk about it more in a nice bar or so, but that is not going to happen I think :)

Regards, Michiel (and from the half naked orange soccer fans! LOL)
 

scorpionmom

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Hi,

If we are going to bring things like allergies into the equasion, all scorpions are possibly lethal. Yes the OP was talking about all Tityusspecies, but since he mentioned that he wanted to start keeping them, he can only get his hands on those that are in the hobbycircuit and not on the ones that aren't. :D No use of making a post here with a list of all 190 species or more and their toxicity when you will never see 160 of those species.:D
I don't think it will cost me a lot of effort to prove all Tityus are possibly lethal like you wrote. But that is semantics I admit.

I don't understand how you can write that in Erics' book (which is intended for hobbyist according to the authors. Did you read that part?)3 means : toxic species "possibly cousing more or less serious damage" (can it be anymore vague?) and 4: very toxic, possibly lethal, and talk about relative danger at the same time, because the danger of scorpionism is not relative, that's why I added reference list. You are simply reacting to the text of my post, did you read any of the papers? And yes, of one third I couldn't find the LD50, but from those 7, 4 are mentioned as medical significant in the list of LK Ross, see reference list.
I know Luc Ross and if there' s one thing I am sure of, is that he done his homework very well and consulted several scorpiologists like Fet, Prendini etc to write that list.
Finally, yes mortality rates are low in adults, less then 5% bla bla, but it is higher in children, but it sucks when you are one of the 5%, I think we can agree to that.:D

I like a good debate, and you obviously like that too, but let's stop debating just for the sake of the debate.
We should grab a beer and talk about it more in a nice bar or so, but that is not going to happen I think :)

Regards, Michiel (and from the half naked orange soccer fans! LOL)
I know that all Tityus spp. are potentially dangerous, and Michiel, you made a good point that, if I wanted to get some, that I was more likely to get ones that were common in the hobby. I'm glad we (hopefully) ended the dispute.:)
 

Nomadinexile

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LOL!

I think we are on the same page Micheal, like usual. The difference in our comments are related to our perspectives of the OP's questions. For example, you give info on species available, when the op asked about all. You are probably right that they will not have access to the others, whereas I am not assuming that. So we are both correct I think.

I agree that all Tityus are possibly lethal, if you include small children, the elderly, and allergies. I disagree that all Tityus are possibly lethal to healthy adults. I have yet to see anything to convince me of that.

My main point is this: Yes, scorpions can be very dangerous, but this should come with a healthy dose of perspective. Most envenomations from the most dangersous scorpions in the world, ie: A. australis, L.q.'s, etc.; do not result in fatality, EVEN in children!

If I had the time, I could show you some stats that would. But I don't right now. But I don't want scorpions, even the more dangerous species, being looked at as killing machines. They just aren't. Most dogs are more dangerous to children. For me, I want people to find the middle ground. Yes, some can be dangerous. Yes, there are fatalities. But it is relatively rare. It would be safer for me to sleep in cage full of L.q.'s, then it would for me to walk around alone in some local neighborhoods at night. Should we be careless around scorpions? NO. But should we act like they are death in an exoskeleton? NO.

As for the Beer, I'll take you up on that sometime. How does next january sound? Well, it's probably not very nice weather there then. Maybe next April? :)
 
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Venom

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Michiel,

Thank you for doing the legwork on that wonderful checklist. :clap::clap::clap:
I have saved it for myself for use as a reference resource!

If I may suggest so, you could submit that LD50 checklist to the Arachno-Articles sub-forum.

(or perhaps a moderator could do something with a sticky?)
 

Michiel

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Hi Nomad,

I say cheers to scorpions aren't killing machines and we should not be careless around them. As I hate stings, I'll take the neighbourhoods, I will hide for the people who wanna rob me or kill me...

@ scorpionmom, this wasn't really a dispute, more a firey discussion :D
@ Venom, maybe Zoltan will make a sticky or add the info to the designated area.
 

scorpionmom

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I would also like to say that scorpions should not be looked at in revulsion or as killing machines. They are incredible animals! (at least in my opinion)

Thanks everyone for the help!!:)
 

Venom

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Michiel,

Skinheaddave has added a link to your Tityus LD50 work in Kugellager's LD50 thread, linked to by the "Commonly Used Thread Index, Emergency Information and FAQ" sticky. :D So now it's up there for permanent reference. Again, great job and thanks!
 

Michiel

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Hi Venom,

Well thank you for the compliment and glad the shortlist can be used for future reference..

regards, Michiel
 

scorpionmom

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A simple question: Does anyone know how toxic the venom is of Tityus bastosi and what the LD50 value of it would be. I would like to know for comparison. I've looked all over the place but I just can't find it. Any help would be greatly appreciated!:)
 

Michiel

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A simple question: Does anyone know how toxic the venom is of Tityus bastosi and what the LD50 value of it would be. I would like to know for comparison. I've looked all over the place but I just can't find it. Any help would be greatly appreciated!:)
Eeeeuhhhmm, not to mock you, but why did you think I was not able to find it?;) I suspect this species was not properly researched (yet) for it's medical significance..

Besides the toxicity, you need to be able to get your hand on microcrickets weekly to feed them, adults measure 3,5 cm at the most. I received 9 instar 2 young last year and they proved easy to raise on microcrickets. All are still alive and now in instar 5. Very nice species, but small. It is not a very defensive or nervous species, but they can be unpredictable, just like any scorpion.
 
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