Tityus toxicity?

scorpionmom

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I have read previous threads and done research for information about this but none completely answered the questions. I was wondering exactly what Tityus spp. where considered dangerous to very dangerous and especially what species are NOT considered as dangerous. I have seen that some could even be described as moderately venomous, and can be compared to Rhopalurus spp., Lychas spp., etc. that are for intermediate level keepers, but I want to make sure this is actually true.

Also, do you need a permit to keep Tityus or other exotic species?
Thanks very much.
 

gromgrom

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I have read previous threads and done research for information about this but none completely answered the questions. I was wondering exactly what Tityus spp. where considered dangerous to very dangerous and especially what species are NOT considered as dangerous. I have seen that some could even be described as moderately venomous, and can be compared to Rhopalurus spp., Lychas spp., etc. that are for intermediate level keepers, but I want to make sure this is actually true.

Also, do you need a permit to keep Tityus or other exotic species?
Thanks very much.
i have not kept them or done much research, but if any scorpions or venomous animals arent permitted in your state/county/city, this applies to tityus as well as all the others.

You'd have to look up your local laws.
 

AzJohn

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I can't be entirely certain. I imagine a lot of research still needs to be done on tityus venom. Whatever information is out their could be the result of a local population and variation in a population. Once you take differences in individual scorpions into considerations then you realize that even a "less dangerous" species could have potentially dangerous individuals. I guess what I'm saying is that I'd consider any tityus sting a big deal. The genus has so many medically significant species that the safe bet is to consider all of them dangerous.
John
 

Michiel

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Where did you "see" that scorpionmom? Comparing Tityus to genera like Lychas is BS in my never humble opinion...Lychas venom does not cause pulmonary edema, which a lot of Tityusvenoms do, to name just one thing.
Some species that have been considered as "moderate venomous" like i.e. Tityus magnimanus (=T.falconensis), are considered highly venomous now, after it has been properly researched and after documented cases of scorpionism with this species involved.
There are around 190 described species and subspecies and there are still new species described almost every year.
Like John aptly stated, there are also differences in populations. I won't go into further detail as I don't want to put people to sleep here, but it is the safest to treat all of the species as highly venomous. Btw, most species in the hobby are....I do not know a single species which can be labelled at not dangerous (which does not mean they aren't there!, but I am just not interested in venom research, so I don't know that much, but I read a thing or two :))

I keep around 12 Tityus species at the moment, and I have both an Epipen and anti-hystaminicum (Tavegil) in my scorpionroom...And a form which I made, that I can fill in for medical personel. Just to be safe and responsible....

I not do not know the laws of the US, you'll have to check yourself...
 
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scorpionmom

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Thanks all of you! You answered my questions.

I was not considering getting Tityus spp. yet, just for future reference. I am still young and do not want a scorpion that could potentially kill me.;)

Thanks for the information again. It helps a lot.:)
 

Michiel

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ok great, never hesitate to ask, because several people on this board keep them. Still curious where you read that some of them are comparable to Lychas, Rhopalurus etc ....
 

scorpionmom

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ok great, never hesitate to ask, because several people on this board keep them. Still curious where you read that some of them are comparable to Lychas, Rhopalurus etc ....
Not to make his respectabilty any smaller or anything, but on Eric Ythier's site The Scorpion Fauna, in the table of captive conditions, he has the venom toxicity for Tityus spp. as a 3-4, and Rhopalurus, Lychas, Babycurus, and other species like those are rated 3. However, I might just be confused or interpreting it wrong.:?
 

Michiel

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Not to make his respectabilty any smaller or anything, but on Eric Ythier's site The Scorpion Fauna, in the table of captive conditions, he has the venom toxicity for Tityus spp. as a 3-4, and Rhopalurus, Lychas, Babycurus, and other species like those are rated 3. However, I might just be confused or interpreting it wrong.:?
I don't think you are confused or interpreting things wrong. Look at the date the last time that site was updated ;) The reported cases of scorpionism in T.magnimanus where after that date (pers.comm. L.K.Ross)......I have another opinion than Eric, in the case of a 1-5 scale. Btw, Eric is a very knowledgeable scorpiologist, let me say that, but people can have different opinions and I think that he might think different about this subject in the meantime....Maybe that 1-5 scale was based on LD50 values, and that system is heavily critized in the past years (significance of LD50 values in relation to severe systemic effects)...I.e. T.obscurus has an LD50 value of over 11 (species like A.australis and L.quinquestriatus have a value of around 1), but there where several fatalities, one of them in French Guyana in a minor.

That data from the website is also somewhat arbitrary chozen, there are mildly venomous scorpions 1-2, medium venomous 3, like Babycurus and such, and highly venomous scorpions like Androctonus, Leiurus and Tityus....
 

scorpionmom

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I don't think you are confused or interpreting things wrong. Look at the date the last time that site was updated ;) The reported cases of scorpionism in T.magnimanus where after that date (pers.comm. L.K.Ross)......I have another opinion than Eric, in the case of a 1-5 scale. Btw, Eric is a very knowledgeable scorpiologist, let me say that, but people can have different opinions and I think that he might think different about this subject in the meantime....Maybe that 1-5 scale was based on LD50 values, and that system is heavily critized in the past years (significance of LD50 values in relation to severe systemic effects)...I.e. T.obscurus has an LD50 value of over 11 (species like A.australis and L.quinquestriatus have a value of around 1), but there where several fatalities, one of them in French Guyana in a minor.

That data from the website is also somewhat arbitrary chozen, there are mildly venomous scorpions 1-2, medium venomous 3, like Babycurus and such, and highly venomous scorpions like Androctonus, Leiurus and Tityus....
Thanks, I didn't think that people's ideas would change. I know that Eric Ythier is a very good scorpiologist, and I did not mean to find fault with him.
Thanks for clearing this up.:)
 

Nomadinexile

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Just poppin in for a second and wanted to help clear this up a little.

@Michiel As far as I know, Eric's site uses a 1-4 scale, just like his and Stockmans new book Scorpions Of The World.


@ScorpionMom My knowledge of venom levels is extremely limited. I have a read a fraction of what Michiel has I am sure. There is so much information out there, and so much information needed, that you would almost have to be a venom researcher to have a firm grasp of what we are talking about. Because of this, I tend to stay to the safer side of venom estimates. So in this case for example, if Eric's Scorpion Fauna says that Tityus are 3-4 on a 4 scale, I will assume they are 4. For another example, Centruroides vittatus is usually marked as 2.5 on a 5 scale. I assume 3 of 5 is more than possible considering local variations.

Tityus and other hot species are not for everyone. But if you are interested in getting them in the future, I do have some suggestions if you are interested.

I would recommend getting 2 species and getting used to them before you consider hots. Both of these are available and cheap for scorpions.

1. Centruroides vittatus-Striped Bark Scorpion- These are "bark" scorpions, just like Tityus sp. Their venom can be extremely painful, but is not life threatening. They can be kept communally with very little cannibalism. I would keep at least a small group, as this will give you experience in being carefull when doing cage maintenence, and get you used to searching for them in/on/under wood.

2. Smeringus mesaensis- Dune Scorpion- This is a very fast specie that obviously lives on sand dunes. It has a fairly mild venom though, so if you do make a mistake, you don't get hurt.

The key to using these (or any other species) to prepare yourself for more dangerous ones, is to provide proper conditions so that they will be as fast and active as possible. So you will want to provide daytime summer temps in the 90's. After a while of caring for these at full speed, you should have a better idea about whether you are ready and still desire some of the hotter species.

Good Luck and Have Fun!
 

scorpionmom

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Just poppin in for a second and wanted to help clear this up a little.

@Michiel As far as I know, Eric's site uses a 1-4 scale, just like his and Stockmans new book Scorpions Of The World.


@ScorpionMom My knowledge of venom levels is extremely limited. I have a read a fraction of what Michiel has I am sure. There is so much information out there, and so much information needed, that you would almost have to be a venom researcher to have a firm grasp of what we are talking about. Because of this, I tend to stay to the safer side of venom estimates. So in this case for example, if Eric's Scorpion Fauna says that Tityus are 3-4 on a 4 scale, I will assume they are 4. For another example, Centruroides vittatus is usually marked as 2.5 on a 5 scale. I assume 3 of 5 is more than possible considering local variations.

Tityus and other hot species are not for everyone. But if you are interested in getting them in the future, I do have some suggestions if you are interested.

I would recommend getting 2 species and getting used to them before you consider hots. Both of these are available and cheap for scorpions.

1. Centruroides vittatus-Striped Bark Scorpion- These are "bark" scorpions, just like Tityus sp. Their venom can be extremely painful, but is not life threatening. They can be kept communally with very little cannibalism. I would keep at least a small group, as this will give you experience in being carefull when doing cage maintenence, and get you used to searching for them in/on/under wood.

2. Smeringus mesaensis- Dune Scorpion- This is a very fast specie that obviously lives on sand dunes. It has a fairly mild venom though, so if you do make a mistake, you don't get hurt.

The key to using these (or any other species) to prepare yourself for more dangerous ones, is to provide proper conditions so that they will be as fast and active as possible. So you will want to provide daytime summer temps in the 90's. After a while of caring for these at full speed, you should have a better idea about whether you are ready and still desire some of the hotter species.

Good Luck and Have Fun!
Thanks, you are very encouraging. In fact, I am keeping Rhopalurus junceus at the moment and intending to get Isometrus maculatus, Odonturus dentatus, and probably Hottentotta judaicus, Babycurus gigas, Centruroides nitidus, C. meisei, or one of the other more rare Centruroides spp. I will hopefully be prepared for more advanced species in the future.

Thanks for the advice and information. I appreciate it very much.:)
 

Nomadinexile

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Your welcome SM!

I think the species you mentioned will be good preparation for you! :clap:

Keep in mind though, most of those are not beginner species. The C. meisei in particular. Eric lists it as a 4 of 4, which is higher than the 3 of 4 he and Stockman give most of the Tityus sp. in their book, I'm sure with reason. Be careful getting exotic Centruroides. Mexico's Centruroides are responsible for giving Mexico the highest number of deaths from envenomations in the world. I would consider those species responsible for deaths as advanced, regardless of speed or other behavioral aspects. I haven't looked for death statistics for C. meisei yet, but until you are educated fully about it, consider it dangerous!

:D

*edit* This is all I found with a quick search.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-178351930.html
 
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scorpionmom

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Your welcome SM!

I think the species you mentioned will be good preparation for you! :clap:

Keep in mind though, most of those are not beginner species. The C. meisei in particular. Eric lists it as a 4 of 4, which is higher than the 3 of 4 he and Stockman give most of the Tityus sp. in their book, I'm sure with reason. Be careful getting exotic Centruroides. Mexico's Centruroides are responsible for giving Mexico the highest number of deaths from envenomations in the world. I would consider those species responsible for deaths as advanced, regardless of speed or other behavioral aspects. I haven't looked for death statistics for C. meisei yet, but until you are educated fully about it, consider it dangerous!

:D

*edit* This is all I found with a quick search.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-178351930.html
Thanks! That actually answered another question I had had.
I had noticed that C. meisei looked a WHOLE lot like C. elegans, which I know is dangerous, and does kill many people in Mexico. However, I just thought it was a coincidence. You really helped a lot. I am not allowed to have dangerous to very dangerous species (and I am not intending to in the near future, I am smarter than that;)). It is strange, but I think Tityus spp. are VERY attractive scorpions--the coloration and patterns are incredible. But thanks for the information again!:)
 

Nomadinexile

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I get ya. ;)

My T. stigmurus were beautiful. There are other really gorgeous species though. Keep looking for new species and pictures! If you do get some of those rarer species, I hope you plan on breeding them. :)
 

scorpionmom

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I get ya. ;)

My T. stigmurus were beautiful. There are other really gorgeous species though. Keep looking for new species and pictures! If you do get some of those rarer species, I hope you plan on breeding them. :)
Oh, yes, definitely going to breed them! Especially the Isometrus maculatus and the Odonturus dentatus, which are really hard to find.

I have seen many pictures of Tityus spp. and I know where a lot of rarer species are available. Unfortunately, however, like I said before, I am not allowed to keep them yet. Still, my favorites include T. fasciolatus, T. ocelote, T. zulianus, T. stigmurus, T. magnimanus, T. bahiensis, and the rare T. boconensis, among others.

I will continue to be careful though, and will wait for the more dangerous species. Interesting enough, I am not very interested in Androctonus, Leiurus, or Parabuthus, just Tityus and Centruroides.
 

Michiel

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Just poppin in for a second and wanted to help clear this up a little.

@Michiel As far as I know, Eric's site uses a 1-4 scale, just like his and Stockmans new book Scorpions Of The World.
Hi,

Oh okay, 1-4 it is then, but for the sake of the discussion that is not that interesting I think, a bit of a tomatoes-tomatoes thing ;)
 

AzJohn

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Hi,

Oh okay, 1-4 it is then, but for the sake of the discussion that is not that interesting I think, a bit of a tomatoes-tomatoes thing ;)
I'm going to start using a 1-7 scale that's in decending order.
 

Nomadinexile

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Hi,

Oh okay, 1-4 it is then, but for the sake of the discussion that is not that interesting I think, a bit of a tomatoes-tomatoes thing ;)
Normally I agree with you, but not here. :razz:

on a 1-5, 3 is not dangerous. on a 1-4, 3 is medically significant! It's an important distinction I think, though with variations in populations and personal reactions, maybe in the end you are right. :) But really the scale should be noted. ;P

I'm going to start using a 1-7 scale that's in decending order.
lol, that's a great idea John! But I do think you should add to that: We could use algebraic equations and arabic letters, and give a weighted score to "cool" scorpions as well. {D
 

Michiel

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Normally I agree with you, but not here. :razz:

on a 1-5, 3 is not dangerous. on a 1-4, 3 is medically significant! It's an important distinction I think, though with variations in populations and personal reactions, maybe in the end you are right. :) But really the scale should be noted. ;P



lol, that's a great idea John! But I do think you should add to that: We could use algebraic equations and arabic letters, and give a weighted score to "cool" scorpions as well. {D
You don't understand what I mean Nomad. What I was trying to say is that on a 1-3, 1-4, 1-5 scale Tityus (the thread is about Tityus as you can see) are 3,4, 5, in other words, the last scale. So what's the difference? ;P Back at ya :D:D LOL
 

Nomadinexile

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You don't understand what I mean Nomad. What I was trying to say is that on a 1-3, 1-4, 1-5 scale Tityus (the thread is about Tityus as you can see) are 3,4, 5, in other words, the last scale. So what's the difference? ;P Back at ya :D:D LOL
Jeez, French People. :rolleyes: :D

I hear what you are saying freedom fry. {D

However, as much as I respect your knowledge and opinions, you are not the god of all things scorpions! There are many researchers out there with different opinions that are knowledgeable as well. So while you may considers all Tityus 5 of 5, or 4 of 4, or 3 of 3; others do not. When discussing their ratings, regardless of agreement, we should at least represent their opinions correctly.

The only analogy I can come with now is this:

You walk into a map makers house, and look at his giant wall map of germany. Then you proceed to tell your partner that he is a horrible map maker because Dusseldorf and Berlin should be one inch apart on a map, not six.
 
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