Things toxic to Ts

[cold blood]

with the exception of winter, when I feed crickets, I feed wc prey items. In over 12 years I have never had any issue. I can't help but think variety can't be a bad thing. The areas I collect from are protected parks/woods/grasslands. Grasshoppers, katydids, big black crickets, moths and those big flying grasshoppers you often see on gravel roads or in parking lots are my main feeders. Mine have even eaten june bugs. I frequently find mantis', but would never ever use one of those cool creatures as feed, even if they weren't potentially dangerous to the t. They are special. Before I realized the potential dangers I used to feed wasps on occasion, but will not do that any longer as its just not worth it. Katydids are probably the most formidable thing I generally feed and they don't put up a fight. I have put box elders and fireflies in to see her response, she wanted nothing to do with either. They know.

Still wondering about the Asian lady beetles though.

 

[viper69]

I wonder if WC tropical high humidity Ts like Avics and others are affected in any way if kept in arid conditions?? I doubt a CB specimen would be as affected because it was born into an arid environment.

Some people who grew up in New Orleans for example get nosebleeds initially in other regions of the country that are less humid. That's my WC analogy

 

[Keith B]

Yeah, I'm saying feeding a diverse diet to Ts is going to harm them necessarily. Just that I haven't noticed anything occur that would indicate that it makes a difference. WC prey will always come with risks with each feeding. Now that I'm older a trip to the pet store for feeder crickets is more convenient. My days of going out and turning over rocks and catching locusts to feed to the tarantula for the fun of watching it eat them are long over. Fed a few different things to a G. porteri years and years ago, and it didn't harm the T. There's just the chance that something will that I won't risk happening, especially when the ones I keep now cost me much more than a pet store G. porteri. Back then they were $12.

 

[cold blood]

I fail to see how a wild caught cricket, moth, mayfly or hopper would be a threat. Enlighten me. And don't feed me the pesticide line...if pesticides were on the prey item, it would be dead, bugs ain't too resilient to chemicals designed to kill them. These critters live in the wild just fine, eating only wild prey. I'll take notice when a hopper or moth takes control of the tarantula, otherwise I just can't see the "threat". If it were a threat spiders across the globe should be in peril, yet they are not. It matters not where a bug lives, its likely to have its life ended by a larger creature eventually eating it. I walk my dog in wild areas daily, often multiple times a day, so locating prey items is as easy as plucking one off my shirt as I walk. I'm in my 40's and still have little issue catching bugs for my t's. Just fed my chaco juvie a fly that was in the house...munch munch

 

[suntiger117]

I fail to see how a wild caught cricket, moth, mayfly or hopper would be a threat. Enlighten me. And don't feed me the pesticide line...if pesticides were on the prey item, it would be dead, bugs ain't too resilient to chemicals designed to kill them. These critters live in the wild just fine, eating only wild prey. I'll take notice when a hopper or moth takes control of the tarantula, otherwise I just can't see the "threat". If it were a threat spiders across the globe should be in peril, yet they are not. It matters not where a bug lives, its likely to have its life ended by a larger creature eventually eating it. I walk my dog in wild areas daily, often multiple times a day, so locating prey items is as easy as plucking one off my shirt as I walk. I'm in my 40's and still have little issue catching bugs for my t's. Just fed my chaco juvie a fly that was in the house...munch munch

I'm with you on this one man, I'm not going to lie a lot of people are extremely paranoid about things. This however, giving wc prey to the t should have NO harm what soever. They are predators and eat prey, no matter what it is.

---------- Post added 01-23-2014 at 01:26 PM ----------

However, getting back to the toxicities that can enter the enclosure; hmmmm what about fabreeze, fragrances, and cologne? If not sprayed directly or near the cage; is there a harm? What about marijuana smoke? (doubt it) just a thought. What about water? Should we be using bottled water or spring water? I thought about it as I live in Pittsburgh and we have a very clean filtered water system; but what about the chemicals such as: fluoride, iron, or cleaning particles? My t's have been drinking from this source and this source only, no issues at all.

Some people may call themselves (protective or loving pet owners) without a doubt I bet they are, but aren't we being just a little paranoid?

 

[prairiepanda]

I fail to see how a wild caught cricket, moth, mayfly or hopper would be a threat. Enlighten me. And don't feed me the pesticide line...if pesticides were on the prey item, it would be dead, bugs ain't too resilient to chemicals designed to kill them.

Some parasites can live inside insects for a very long time before killing them, and the insect usually looks completely healthy on the outside. Of course, captive bred insects are susceptible to parasites as well, but simple screening over breeding enclosures will prevent exposure. There's no way to guarantee a wild insect isn't infected. I've recently had a T's abdomen burst open, full of nasty larvae, and he was walking around being a typical active MM just 2 hours prior. My prof so far has been unable to identify the larvae, but he informed me that they were probably present in some form inside the T for at least a few months and may have been dormant much longer. I haven't identified the source; he may have been carrying them when I got him, or they may have come from his prey at some point. I don't use wild feeders, but I confess I don't know what kind of conditions my feeders are bred in as I normally get them from Petsmart. I'm much more paranoid now!

 

[suntiger117]

I'm sorry about your t. But if a t ate an infested wc insect prey item, wouldn't the digestive enzymes kill the parasite too????? I think they would as it just dissolves every tissue on the prey. It could've possibly entered the t anally. :/

 

[Keith B]

I fail to see how a wild caught cricket, moth, mayfly or hopper would be a threat. Enlighten me. And don't feed me the pesticide line...if pesticides were on the prey item, it would be dead, bugs ain't too resilient to chemicals designed to kill them. These critters live in the wild just fine, eating only wild prey. I'll take notice when a hopper or moth takes control of the tarantula, otherwise I just can't see the "threat". If it were a threat spiders across the globe should be in peril, yet they are not. It matters not where a bug lives, its likely to have its life ended by a larger creature eventually eating it. I walk my dog in wild areas daily, often multiple times a day, so locating prey items is as easy as plucking one off my shirt as I walk. I'm in my 40's and still have little issue catching bugs for my t's. Just fed my chaco juvie a fly that was in the house...munch munch

Like I said it's a risk you take, however small. Think your Chaco would enjoy a juicy firefly or common household roach, nomnom. Besides pesticides you could feed it an item that's unknowingly to you, toxic to the T. It could carry a parasite that's foreign to the T. It could carry an infestation of mites we haven't even seen in enclosures before. It could have immunized to the local pesticides in the area like roaches have done for ages. I'm sure you've personally carried out a study to compare an insects resistance to pesticides to a tarantula, right? There's sprays for flies that don't kill ants and vice versa, and you could spray a flea all day with those and the flea will laugh at you. You can get a snooty attitude about it all you want, because you prefer not to pay for your pets needs, and can probably only defend what you're doing with sarcasm. The point is tarantulas, like any other animal, adapt to their native habitat to survive it. Your Chaco in it's native habitat, doesn't decide it wants to go to a different restaurant today, hop a plane from Argentina to Wisconsin to go eat houseflies. I've also seen houseflies birth maggots IMMEDIATELY after dying. Imagine if those started pouring out of the carcass and chewing on your T. People aren't paranoid about these things, they just don't risk their pet that they care about when they don't have to. There's been a few reports of a T dying mysteriously after eating an insect caught outside. Was it the cause? Nobody can say. And "spiders across the globe" ARE "in peril". They already barely survive in the wild from being predated on by insects, other spiders, mammals, disease, everything, before humans even get involved in habitat destruction. That post is just so self-defeatingly factless and ego-driven that I doubt your gonna see much backing for it. "They're predators that eat prey" is just silly too. Why not feed yourself to your dog? It will eat you if you let it, so it must be the right thing to do....

---------- Post added 01-23-2014 at 01:53 PM ----------

I'm sorry about your t. But if a t ate an infested wc insect prey item, wouldn't the digestive enzymes kill the parasite too????? I think they would as it just dissolves every tissue on the prey. It could've possibly entered the t anally. :/

exactly. you don't know if it'll digest the parasite too, and a lot of parasites don't get digested by the host. To defend the argument about feeding WC prey to it, I guess it would have HAD to enter it's b-hole, right? That would make MUCH more sense.

 

[oooo35980]

I don't think I would feel comfortable feeding my Ts wild caught anything from around here. After all North Alabama isn't exactly the natural range for L. parahybana or P. murinus, it's entirely possible that there could be some parasites in this area that my Ts aren't designed to cope with and that my Ts digestive enzymes don't kill. It is also possible that some of the herbivorous insects could be eating plants containing toxins which, while harmless to the indigenous insect, could be harmful to my T.

Then there is the fact that the insects around the farms here have been getting sprayed with insecticide for decades and have most probably developed a resistance. It is possible that WC prey could have levels of insecticide not lethal to themselves yet lethal to a tropical tarantula from another continent. Where some people live they might not have a problem with WC prey, while someone a state over could end up killing all their Ts with it. It doesn't seem worth the risk to me.

More on topic, I've heard that caffeine could be a powerful poison for tarantulas, we were handling my wife's B. boehmei last night and I caught my son about to pour a Coke into her water dish. I'm not sure of the effect it would have had if he'd poured it onto the substrate without me noticing.

 

[Keith B]

Just to be clear what I mean by ego driven: I don't mean it as a personal attack to your ego or anything like that. I mean the tone of the post. It's basically saying "oh it hasn't killed it yet, so it's okay to do it, and you're dumb for not doing it. Pesticides? PAH! yea right!". Like you got a big ego about it cause it's working so far, and decided to pass it on as fact to the learning community. If you say you're experimenting with feeding various WC items to your T, then fine. It just comes across like you think everyone all over the world should feed their local wildlife to their tarantula, when people that are new to keeping can read it and take that advice and employ it. I don't know about you, but I don't like reading posts about worms bursting out of a T like above. It's working for you so far, but there's definitely a risk involved.

 

[suntiger117]

Why can't we get back to the topic at hand here: toxicity. Check out my last post on page 3 about water and fragrances

 

[Keith B]

However, getting back to the toxicities that can enter the enclosure; hmmmm what about fabreeze, fragrances, and cologne? If not sprayed directly or near the cage; is there a harm? What about marijuana smoke? (doubt it) just a thought. What about water? Should we be using bottled water or spring water? I thought about it as I live in Pittsburgh and we have a very clean filtered water system; but what about the chemicals such as: fluoride, iron, or cleaning particles? My t's have been drinking from this source and this source only, no issues at all.

Some people may call themselves (protective or loving pet owners) without a doubt I bet they are, but aren't we being just a little paranoid?

With pleasure. Didn't see you add that yet lol. Some people have chosen to buy distilled or purified water for their Ts, and I never fault someone for being extra careful, but a lot of us (including me) use straight tap water, and haven't had any problems using it (besides mineral stains ugh! such a pain to clean!). I think with all of the fragrance items you mentioned they might do harm if sprayed directly into the cage in liquid form, but once they take to the air, I haven't seen any problems. My fiancee sprays low with the febreze, not over the cages, so I can't say what spraying over the cage would do, but the vapors being in the room don't appear to hurt. As with marijuana smoke, over the years, I've had friends over that smoke. I had them blow it out the window mostly, but the odor is there. Much like with the cigarette smoke, I haven't seen anything in the way of ill-effect so far. So far the main thing I've read about that is extremely lethal to tarantulas when it goes airborne is bleach. There may have been some threads with other chemicals, but I'm not sure. Maybe someone can chime in with others that have had tragic results. I've been kind of an unwilling participant in tarantula chemical experiments for some time now cause I live in small quarters with several house mates. Hoping by the end of February the seller will be ready to close on our house. Been pushed back 3 months already. As much stuff as I've had near my Ts without ill-effect, I'd rather not chance it if I can. Who's to say what hasn't effected slings and adults for 5 or so years now, might effect them 10, 15, 20 years down the line? My reports are only that these things don't appear to harm them so far.

 

[suntiger117]

I do the same thing as she does; spray low. Besides, air fresheners don't work if you just spray them in the air as all of the substance just goes to the floor. I smoke out my window (not cigarettes) every day. No harm. I put a fan on me to keep the smell and cold air out and no problems occur. I have a smallish room but still I am careful for where I spray my febreeze or cologne.

 

[Keith B]

More on topic, I've heard that caffeine could be a powerful poison for tarantulas, we were handling my wife's B. boehmei last night and I caught my son about to pour a Coke into her water dish. I'm not sure of the effect it would have had if he'd poured it onto the substrate without me noticing.

Oh wow. Yeah, I have no idea about that one. Your son almost conducted the experiment . I can't imagine how we'd find out about caffeine without actually putting it in the cage. I would think a tarantula would be put off by soda in the dish, but diluted by water or soil, who knows? Definitely an "outside of the box" chemical to consider.

---------- Post added 01-23-2014 at 05:38 PM ----------

I do the same thing as she does; spray low. Besides, air fresheners don't work if you just spray them in the air as all of the substance just goes to the floor. I smoke out my window (not cigarettes) every day. No harm. I put a fan on me to keep the smell and cold air out and no problems occur. I have a smallish room but still I am careful for where I spray my febreeze or cologne.

Yeah that's what I do too, just be careful about where the initial spray goes. I think that's cautious enough. Those things were designed to have the vapors breathed in, so I can't imagine they'd be lethal, especially when cats and dogs and other animals have no trouble with them.

 

[viper69]

I fail to see how a wild caught cricket, moth, mayfly or hopper would be a threat. Enlighten me. And don't feed me the pesticide line...if pesticides were on the prey item, it would be dead, bugs ain't too resilient to chemicals designed to kill them. These critters live in the wild just fine, eating only wild prey. I'll take notice when a hopper or moth takes control of the tarantula, otherwise I just can't see the "threat". If it were a threat spiders across the globe should be in peril, yet they are not. It matters not where a bug lives, its likely to have its life ended by a larger creature eventually eating it. I walk my dog in wild areas daily, often multiple times a day, so locating prey items is as easy as plucking one off my shirt as I walk. I'm in my 40's and still have little issue catching bugs for my t's. Just fed my chaco juvie a fly that was in the house...munch munch

So you have never read or heard how small levels of toxic substances accumulate in the food chain affecting predators, causing all sorts of terrible things?

"Pesticide line"..sounds like a conspiracy , pesticides only kill at a certain toxicological level. If that level is not reached, the insect lives with the pesticide inside it, but then again, we can't tell a priori how much pesticide is in WC prey items.

You aren't aware of the billions of dollars that goes into agriculture pesticide control, purchasing products to control insects? Insects are extremely resilient, you may not know this, but companies spend many millions of dollars a year in research looking for better pesticides.

You don't see the threat. The fact is you haven't observed it IF it's happening. Have you performed a necropsy, conducted toxicology studies, have you examined its tissues on a cellular level, I suspect the answer is 'no' to all of those.

A person who feeds WC prey has absolutely no idea if those prey items are causing harm. Simply because you can't see something with your eyes doesn't mean harm isn't occurring, building up over time.

I'm with you on this one man, I'm not going to lie a lot of people are extremely paranoid about things. This however, giving wc prey to the t should have NO harm what soever. They are predators and eat prey, no matter what it is.

---------- Post added 01-23-2014 at 01:26 PM ----------

It's a huge assumption you make that local fauna is healthy especially for a foreign species. What does being a predator have to do with health of a food supply??? Nothing.

Don't get me wrong, I think prey variety is a good thing. Can you insure the WC prey is healthy and without pesticides a priori? No one can actually without conducting tests, conversely, I doubt anyone has conducted tests regarding pesticide-laced prey items fed to Ts, don't hold your breath on that one! As a result, most people rely on raising their own prey or rely on pet stores, it's about being safe vs being risky with one's pets


However, if you both feel WC prey is healthy, I think you both should feed fireflies to your Ts and let the forum know of the results.

 

[cold blood]

First off, im disappointed that my post was read with arrogance or snootiness (whatever that is, its certainly not me), none was intended on my part. Nor was I attempting sarcasm in any way. That's the bad part about the written word, it can often be read with several different tones and the writer has no control which is heard by the reader. That said, I can see your point of view, and apologize for coming off that way.

I did ask to "be enlightened" did I not? I wanted info! I studied natural resources, fisheries specifically, so I am fully aware about toxicology, it passing down the line and such. Those levels in fish never go down and only build through the years, actually expodentially as the size of prey increases, which is why smaller fish are safer to eat. But the toxins that would effect us if we eat it, often has no effect on the lifespan of the fish. Generally it effects the reproductive cycle in one manner or another. I realize t's aren't fish, hence the need for enlightenment from y'all. I'm not breeding so I never gave it much worry. I've now re-thunk that theory as I am always open to learn.

I experimented with different foods well over 10 years ago, haven't for a long, long time (I don't feed fireflies, kid next door put one in and I noticed she wanted nothing to do with it. That's why I said that I believe they know a bad prey item when they see it (or feel it). There's a steady diet of basically 8 things as they are available seasonally. The feed I give, moths (favorite) , hoppers of various species, big crickets, katydids and FLIES and such are found worldwide and are all likely to be natural t food across the globe. I also know that although there isn't an issue with feeding crickets all the time (or a single food source), with regards to health, but it really hasn't been studied much from what I could find. I do know they didn't evolve to feed on a single prey item, even though they can. This is an excerpt from Barrons," Tarantulas and other arachnids" regarding diet:

"The key to a healthy tarantula is a diverse diet. Laboratory studies conducted by myself and others with wolf spiders have shown that no one prey species alone can be a complete diet. However attention to diet is much more important for rearing baby tarantulas than simply maintaining an adult spider. There is no evidence yet that vitiman supplements are useful, but no one has looked"

This is a reason why, back 12 yrs ago, decided to supplement wc prey, for the variety that I thought was needed to do better than simply maintaining. Sites like this, with individuals with significant experience, really offer more real world advice, which is why I'm now here.

And I certainly don't do it as a money saving thing, that did make me chuckle though. Crickets are literally the cheapest thing the pet store sells. I generally always have a few on hand as well. I do understand spiders in many places are in peril, my point was that it isn't from prey items, that's all. Man's usually, if not always, to blame.

The thing is, and I don't see others as concerned, how does anyone know for sure that the crickets your lps has are healthy. To respond in kind: Has anyone ever done a physical on their feed? I'm joking of course, but really, how do you know for absolute sure unless you're raising the food source yourself, which many of us either can't or won't do.. If there's something bad introduced to feeder crickets or roaches at any time before of during the time the lps sells them, it would likely effect the entire population very quickly as they are housed in very close proximity. How can you know, even with store crickets? Every new shipment is another potential issue. I have personally seen some that were disgusting. Then again illness is rarely passed from prey to predator, but the parasite thing is still a factor that could certainly not only effect a lps, but be very difficult for one to fix.

In my research many years ago, I came to understand the most likely issues do come from external parasites, not from foods, so my concern level has been very low over the years (not just because it hasn't killed it yet). I never gave the parasite on the food hitching a ride a thought, although its completely plausible and certainly something to think about. The book I have says that parasites are usually only an issue in overly moist or dirty conditions and that mites can literally come from anything. The list of things that can carry mites, they write "mites can come from anything put into the cage...the list goes on and on" (barrons). I didn't figure wc prey would be significantly different.

One of the reasons I feed like this is due o the pickiness of my rosea. There are times that if the prey item doesn't have beating wings, she's not interested. Or times she wants nothing to do with crickets or much of anything, but I put in a certain shape and she's all over it. I have noticed at times she only wants certain things at times, this has been the source for my feeding of wc prey. I knew it wanted to feed, but had to experiment to find a critter she did want. And I'm not generally feeding unless I see her in hunting posture, so its not like im overfeeding. Sometimes she's hunting and all she'll take is a moth.

Sorry to get back off track, I just thought I needed to better explain myself. Thanks to all for the info for me to think about, much appreciated.

Oh, and people are not a natural food source for a dog. Raw meat however, can indeed be on the menu as they are not susceptible to the bad things in raw meat that effect us, like salmonella. I do in fact, supplement my dogs diet with other healthy foods as just kibble isn't going to give her the best diet possible, and I do give high quality kibble .

 

[viper69]

First off, im disappointed that my post was read with arrogance or snootiness (whatever that is, its certainly not me), none was intended on my part. Nor was I attempting sarcasm in any way. That's the bad part about the written word, it can often be read with several different tones and the writer has no control which is heard by the reader. That said, I can see your point of view, and apologize for coming off that way.

Hey man, I apologize if my post came off that way and rubbed you raw too. I read your post carefully, and when I read "enlighten" in particular, that's the word I almost ALWAYS use when I'm being a Supreme Sarcastic person (be it for fun or not actually) so I had a mindset by that point to some degree, my fault, definitely not yours. You are quite right about the written word (that was a topic in another thread actually!)

You right about food supply, none of us know if the pet shop crix are healthy. We assume they are because that is some company, in some cases a family's income, but still anything could happen. I'm surprised moths work because I know for birds some moths are bitter tasting. When I owned chameleons I did a varied diet for their health, and I have little doubt a diverse diet is good for Ts, and not always McCrickets haha

One of the reasons I feed like this is due o the pickiness of my rosea. There are times that if the prey item doesn't have beating wings, she's not interested. Or times she wants nothing to do with crickets or much of anything, but I put in a certain shape and she's all over it. I have noticed at times she only wants certain things at times, this has been the source for my feeding of wc prey. I knew it wanted to feed, but had to experiment to find a critter she did want. And I'm not generally feeding unless I see her in hunting posture, so its not like im overfeeding. Sometimes she's hunting and all she'll take is a moth.

Oh man it sounds like she has trained you??!!! hahahaah They will definitely wait it out if they don't like the prey. We read that on the boards when it comes to roaches at times. I do the same thing regarding hunting posture. I always look for that as the first signal to feed, esp with species that are new to me like my P rufilata.

Stay Cool

 

[Stimpack]

I've occasionally had cigarette hands and cigarette smoke itself in the same room and proximity with my tarantulas and haven't lost a single one to anything but old age in 15 years. Most of the nicotine absorbs into your bloodstream. Unless you're allowing an unsmoked cigarette to waft directly into the cage (but I couldn't tell you cause I haven't tried it), they don't seem to struggle with it at all. Scold me for it if you want, but cigarette smoke as being highly lethal has been tested and disproved. Yes, it's a pesticide, but with so little in the smoke it's virtually harmless. Vinegar is another one to add on the "avoid" list. It's wonderful for cleaning hard water spots off of dishes, but sadly, the vapors aren't so good for your pet according to TKG

EDIT: I'm not saying I condone smoking near tarantulas. I just live in small quarters with smokers. Can't wait to move into my house and give them their own room. I'm simply saying if it's -15 degrees outside and you wanna smoke inside, it's not going to kill your T, even if you smoke 10 cigarettes. They don't get sick, they don't cringe, they behave normally.

cudos keith

---------- Post added 01-24-2014 at 06:21 PM ----------

or however you spell that first word

 

[jgod790]

All I have to say, is I'm glad to hear there are other tarantula hobbiest who smoke mary jane. I ask about cig smoke but I didn't want to be the one to bring it up. Although I try not to smoke anything, weed or cigs around my T's. Smoke can't be healthy for anything right? Not to mention, I don't want tar discoloring my enclosures. And about the water, I've always used tap. If I can drink it no problem, I'm sure the T's can to.

 

[viper69]

I bet they get Book Lung Cancer and need chemo !! j/k hahha it's def. not good for them, I'm not about test it for definitive proof.