The World's Most Dangerous Snakes: Working with Mambas & King Cobras

[The Snark]

Northern Thailand.

 

[ecooper]

Northern Thailand.

My first time in Bangkok (in 2004) there was a reptile show not far from where I was staying (Imperial Queens Park hotel). I suspect they might have had an Ophiophagus as part of the show. Unfortunately I didn't have time to check it out. When I went back last year the show wasn't there anymore. I probably would have been bothered by the care of the animals anyhow. In 2004 I also rescued a small retic from a crowd of people on a construction site. It was nice (and handle) to see a retic in the "wild" even if it was downtown Bangkok...

 

[The Snark]

I dislike those shows but at the same time, without them and the places like the 'snake farm', many more animals would end up in stew pots. Nearly all the snakes I have posted pics of here are rescuees, now on display. But they are fed and content. The last pic is 'grandma'. Unlike the other pythons, it is strictly a do not enter containment. At close to 20 feet long she wouldn't mind trying to eat people and when she gets it in gear she's impossibly quick. Strange how the temperaments differ so drastically.
Rescues:

 

[Najakeeper]

Hello,

I cannot post zoo protocols here...several pages, plus a huge binder of info necessary to assure backup supplies of antivenin, backup doctors in event designated specialist is not available, chopper or other transport for victim and additional antivenin; experts to check recent changes in treatment options (venom evolution, etc) and so on; in any event, legalities would prevent such even if time did not (I'm also an attorney, and instinctively consider such things...in my experience, folks tend to pick and choose from such lists). Re legalities - I've participated in the legislative process in several states; the general trend is towards increased regulation, and the consensus among attorneys and responsible gov officials is that the issue will soon be largely settled via laws prohibiting private ownership in most if not all of the USA.

Opinions etc are not relevant here, at least in my view...there is a set, long-established way to deal with venomous bites, and even under the best of circumstances problems can arise. It is unwise to attempt to operate without fully understanding what is involved...hands on responders, while a wonderful source of info and a vital part of the protocol, are just that - a part. Doctors, herpetologists and many others all have a role, and have access to info that is largely unavailable to others.

I strongly advise the 2 prior posters not to rely upon the assumptions they have expressed above.

Those sincerely interested in working with venomous snakes would be well advised to seek a career in herpetology. If that is not possible, I suggest subscribing to the major journals..Copeia, Toxicon, Herpetologica, Journal of Herpetology etc and attending the conferences sponsored by the parent organizations.

Again, I'm not naive, and realize that, in most cases, legislation is the only way to limit the private ownership of venomous snakes (well, bites usually limit it...those that survive a bite almost always go through a rapid "attitude adjustment"!!). Therefore, I'll not continue debating this issue. Best, Frank

Man, I resent this attitude. It reeks of absolute negatives. "You cannot do it" "Why" "Because..." This is just irrational. And this shows how people behind the scenes are doing their goddamn best to take people's rights away. We are not talking about a decent permit system here either, which is in place in most European countries for example. No, we are talking about a wide range absolute goddamn ban. Why? Because (as an example) some guy, who happens to have some legal experience and some zoo experience have decided how people should act on their behalf! I am sorry and I am sorry but that's just plain BS. Especially in a country where you have 1.5 guns per person, it is complete BS.

Opinions etc are not relevant here?

Well they are, at least in the democratic part of the world and they always will be. I have an IQ of 141, I was educated as a geneticist/cell biologist in a great university and I have been working with reptiles for most of my life. I know what venom does to organism in extreme detail and via personal experience as I am also a snake bite survivor (no rapid attitude change either!). So I am not going to accept absolute negatives from anyone. If I die doing this, I will die doing what I love doing so know this, we will fight against your bans globally. Try your best!

 

[David VB]

Hello,

I cannot post zoo protocols here...several pages, plus a huge binder of info necessary to assure backup supplies of antivenin, backup doctors in event designated specialist is not available, chopper or other transport for victim and additional antivenin; experts to check recent changes in treatment options (venom evolution, etc) and so on; in any event, legalities would prevent such even if time did not (I'm also an attorney, and instinctively consider such things...in my experience, folks tend to pick and choose from such lists). Re legalities - I've participated in the legislative process in several states; the general trend is towards increased regulation, and the consensus among attorneys and responsible gov officials is that the issue will soon be largely settled via laws prohibiting private ownership in most if not all of the USA.

Opinions etc are not relevant here, at least in my view...there is a set, long-established way to deal with venomous bites, and even under the best of circumstances problems can arise. It is unwise to attempt to operate without fully understanding what is involved...hands on responders, while a wonderful source of info and a vital part of the protocol, are just that - a part. Doctors, herpetologists and many others all have a role, and have access to info that is largely unavailable to others.

I strongly advise the 2 prior posters not to rely upon the assumptions they have expressed above.

Those sincerely interested in working with venomous snakes would be well advised to seek a career in herpetology. If that is not possible, I suggest subscribing to the major journals..Copeia, Toxicon, Herpetologica, Journal of Herpetology etc and attending the conferences sponsored by the parent organizations.

Again, I'm not naive, and realize that, in most cases, legislation is the only way to limit the private ownership of venomous snakes (well, bites usually limit it...those that survive a bite almost always go through a rapid "attitude adjustment"!!). Therefore, I'll not continue debating this issue. Best, Frank

This is leaning a lot towards dictatorship imho... I myself will never (hmm, never say never^^) have venomous snakes, coz it's just not allowed here (maybe thanx to people like you...) but also coz i do not think i can handle it like it should be done. But i know some private people who have those wonderful creatures and are very prepared to handle them, with protocols and everything. I really don't see the difference between a zoo or a private keeper? They both need lots of experience and knowledge about the animals, but in the end both can be as prepared as should be. And both can still be tagged and possibly die. But who are you to decide who can do this or not???

 

[The Snark]

Man, I resent this attitude. It reeks of absolute negatives. "You cannot do it" "Why" "Because..." This is just irrational. And this shows how people behind the scenes are doing their goddamn best to take people's rights away. We are not talking about a decent permit system here either, which is in place in most European countries for example. No, we are talking about a wide range absolute goddamn ban. Why? Because (as an example) some guy, who happens to have some legal experience and some zoo experience have decided how people should act on their behalf! I am sorry and I am sorry but that's just plain BS. Especially in a country where you have 1.5 guns per person, it is complete BS.

Well they are, at least in the democratic part of the world and they always will be. I have an IQ of 141, I was educated as a geneticist/cell biologist in a great university and I have been working with reptiles for most of my life. I know what venom does to organism in extreme detail and via personal experience as I am also a snake bite survivor (no rapid attitude change either!). So I am not going to accept absolute negatives from anyone. If I die doing this, I will die doing what I love doing so know this, we will fight against your bans globally. Try your best!

. o O ( Could we get this guy some elephant tranquilizers, kind of STAT if you would)

Najakeeper, you've been talked about behind your back I should mention but anyway. Findi rattled on about protocols though no specifics have been forthcoming. A couple of us here have felt we'd like to hear what protocols or equivalents long time snake keepers such as yourself have in place. Sort of a way for people to put together a handy guide to what all is entailed in keeping hots with both them and the keeper content and safe. Would you be so kind as to put in your 37 cents kroner pesos marks or whatever??

 

[Najakeeper]

. o O ( Could we get this guy some elephant tranquilizers, kind of STAT if you would)

Najakeeper, you've been talked about behind your back I should mention but anyway. Findi rattled on about protocols though no specifics have been forthcoming. A couple of us here have felt we'd like to hear what protocols or equivalents long time snake keepers such as yourself have in place. Sort of a way for people to put together a handy guide to what all is entailed in keeping hots with both them and the keeper content and safe. Would you be so kind as to put in your 37 cents kroner pesos marks or whatever??

I try to keep it very simple. We, the venomous keepers, have an antivenom bank that we pay into, which is a shared source. The bank has our address, the hospital we would go, our family doctor etc. I also have a full coverage insurance so that I won't be a burden on the taxpayer if I get bitten. I also have a folder, with an extended medical protocol to take it to the hospital with me as the doctors are not the most experienced for venomous snake bites.

First and foremost, I never work in the snake room when I am alone so if I get incapacitated, below actions will be taken by my significant other.

The bite protocol itself is venom type dependent. With elapids, it will be pressure bandage, call for medical help, call the antivenom center, let people in the house know, take the extended medical care protocol under your arm and lay down. I also have a post-it type sticky note on each cage with the relevant information about the snake/venom/antivenom, which I basically will stick to my forehead. Again, the whole point is speed and simplicity.

With viperids with no neurotoxic venom, different rules apply when it comes to pressure bandage but the rest is similar. If the toxicity of the venom is not very strong, my wife will drive me to the ER instead of calling for help.

I also keep an EpiPen handy. Both me and my wife know how to use it in case of Anaphylaxis.

The situation is absolutely life threatening and one should understand this before going into the hobby, but what you need to do is quite clear if the unfortunate moment happens. Keep calm, follow the steps and leave yourself to the competent hands of western medicine.

 

[The Snark]

Reply to Najakeeper's protocols - draft

(This is a big chunk to chew so I may chop it up. I am also going to interject standard medical/hospital protocols which go hand in hand here)
Preliminaries.
1. Full antivenom data kept on record with comprehensive contact information. *
2. Insurance. (really, mandatory. One bite could bankrupt the victim and incur years of huge expenses.) *
3. Primary care provider and specialist kept on record. *
4. Extended medical protocol kept, bite specific. *
Add - 5. Personal medical record inclusive of date of last physical exam, known allergies, normal vitals and any debilities, deformities and ongoing medical conditions. Should include medications taken regularly.
1 through 5 would all be kept in one readily available folder. A separate folder should be kept for each person who may come in contact with the hazards.

Animal contact procedures.
1. Always a back up person. Protocol should demand this person never comes into contact with the animals. (A back up can never become a potential victim)
2. A posted protocol for each specific type of animal hazard. A copy of the protocol travels with the patient as sticky note.
3. Standard first aid protocols, animal specific.
4. Mechanism Of Injury (MOI) and initial treatment prominently displayed. (Parameds commonly use Sharpy black felt tip marking pens. Sometimes we even offer the courtesy of sticking a broad swath of tape on the victims forehead before we start scribbling)
Add - 5. A standard verbal assist reporting format could be very beneficial. If paramedics are called or the patient is privately transported, a call to the hospital.
Paramed call: Name, first and last, General ID IE X old male/female has been bitten by a snake at X time. Requesting transportation (to hospital X if it may not be their primary response facility). Address, nearest cross street and any additional directions as required. The folder is shown to the medics but they probably will not take it until the patient has been assessed and stabilized. Work with them.
Hospital call: Request ER. Giving the info to a front office clerk doesn't help matters. They will answer with their protocol: 'Emergency'. You reply, I have a snake bite victim I am transporting to your facility. Age, male/female. Patient name is: (So they can order medical records pull). Our Estimated Time of Arrival is.... We are bringing full technical information of both patient and the snake. (If applicable) The designated snake bite specialist is (physician name and phone number)
6. Reiterate even if written up: Inform parameds or hospital of any drugs/medications taken in the past 24 hours, allergies and chronic medical conditions. (BE DARNED SURE TO INFORM IF EPI HAS BEEN USED!)

Okay. What's clear as thick mud and what have I forgotten?

 

[bigjej]

Frank - thank for another great post.

Freedudmbclxvi - the fact that you would have to go, in the event of being possibly envenomated, to Venom One (or another hospital) in of itself shows that you are not setup at home to take care of a snake (or spider) bite, just that you have available local resources to which to go to for treatment.

The Snark - I am not an expert in venom, but am a physician who works in an Emergency Department on occasion, as well as an ICU, so with that disclaimer, I will give you some idea of what may be required to properly treat a venomous animal bite ( all this depends on the species, and the individual circumstances as different people will react differently - i.e. there may be shock, anaphylaxis, necrosis or just a red and sore thumb all from the same species bite). Some things that a proper center would need on hand would be cardiopulmonoary monitoring, IV fluid with appropriate IV accessing equipment such as needles and tubes, 100% oxygen with different methods of delivery ranging from a facemask to a positive pressure bag valve mask in the event of respiratory arrest, vasopressors ( blood pressure support medications ) in the event of shock, antibiotics (many wounds are complicated by infections), pain medications (not talking about Tylenol here), intubation kit ( medications, endotracheal tubes and laryngoscope) and Antivenin. Oh and ideally you want a physician trained and well practiced in emergency resusication such as an Emergency Medicine, Intensivist or anesthesiologist. While most bites will not require all of the above, in medicine we always have to be prepared for the worst case scenario.

 

[freedumbdclxvi]

Freedudmbclxvi - the fact that you would have to go, in the event of being possibly envenomated, to Venom One (or another hospital) in of itself shows that you are not setup at home to take care of a snake (or spider) bite, just that you have available local resources to which to go to for treatment.

I absolutely disagree. I have my protocols for a bite, and I have antivenom locally covered. I was unaware a prerequisite of keeping hots was owning and/or living at a hospital facility.

 

[The Snark]

Let's clarify. Venom One is an emergency response entity that specializes in bites and stings. Purely intervention response.

The protocols of an individual must designate a hospital with acute care capability. It is also highly recommended that EMT II ambulance service be called instead of personal transportation of a patient. However that is the choice of the individual. If the ambulance is an hour away and the hospital is just around the corner as example.
EMT II, working in conjunction with an acute care facility provides all the basic trauma intervention as listed in bigjej's post, second paragraph, up to and inclusive of ACLS. Acute care facilities provide the advanced intervention and therapeutic services mentioned. If the primary care facility does not have specific envenomation treatment capabilities the individuals protocols which are given to the primary care facility should include the specialist care facility as ascertained by the individual.*
Emergency resuscitation capabilities are standard at all acute care hospitals. Normally the ER POD heads up the code blue team.

*Coordination between the primary care facility and the individual before hand is in order regarding the specialist care facility as most ER's have their own designated list of facilities.

 

[freedumbdclxvi]

I should clarify that my physician, who is now becoming familiar with all sorts of fun reptile related issues since I began going to his practice, gave me info a list of said facilities where I should go. The closest location is 10 mins away, 15 with traffic, and EMT response is quick if we called for an ambulance.

 

[findi]

Pay attention to the doctor's post.

This subject always gets around to a "the government is taking away my rights" type discussion. I have no interest in such...growing up in the Bronx, during the "bad years" has left me very much a "law and order" type guy. Of course this will open the way to more "dictator" type rantings, but so be it.

If (by chance!) anyone has comments on the subject of the article itself, rather than the debate over private ownership, please post and I'll respond quickly, best, Frank

 

[Najakeeper]

Pay attention to the doctor's post.

This subject always gets around to a "the government is taking away my rights" type discussion. I have no interest in such...growing up in the Bronx, during the "bad years" has left me very much a "law and order" type guy. Of course this will open the way to more "dictator" type rantings, but so be it.

If (by chance!) anyone has comments on the subject of the article itself, rather than the debate over private ownership, please post and I'll respond quickly, best, Frank

Man, I wanted to stay mad and keep ranting with that energy but I just went out to walk with my dog (Yes, I have one of those as well. Objection?) and I saw a toad orgy in the middle of the road. After that view, you just cannot stay mad .

Frank, let me put it this way. I am probably one of the most left wing/liberal guys you can find in these forums. Believe me, I am all for regulations that makes sense and venomous snake keeping, like private firearms ownership, shall be heavily regulated. I hate the idea of an 18 year old idiot, who walks into a reptile show and buys the cool albino Naja kaouthia for 50 bucks to impress his idiot friends. That should be illegal. Yet, if you cannot separate that guy with a person, who goes through the pain of being properly licenced, who pays extra insurance money, who researches and gets ready for years for a hobby that he/she loves then you should not be in a position to influence politicians about civil liberties.

My company is moving me to Switzerland soon and in Switzerland, regardless of your previous experience, one needs to get certified to keep venomous snakes. This means I am going to have to pay a significant sum to listen to a guy for a couple days, who very likely knows less about venomous snakes than me. Worse than that, I have to listen to him in Swiss German! But I am not crying about it because this sort of regulation is necessary to stop impulse buyers. This is sensible and useful regulation. If Switzerland banned venomous snake keeping all together, you would just have a bunch of unlicensed keepers, who wouldn't care about your "dictator" type rants.

As for talking about your very well written and enjoyable articles; I am all for it. I have started this conversation with talking about your article. Yet if I posted a video here and underneath typed "All dog breeds, who can bite a human should be banned." nobody would talk about the content of my video and everybody would focus on the unfair and unacceptable comment that I spewed. So, in my humble opinion, cut your "dictator" type rants and focus on what you do best.

 

[findi]

Re "what I do best" I'm an attorney, admitted to the NYS bar in 1983, and so have a bit of experience with the legal aspects and underlying concerns of this and similar issues as well.

Almost anything that is banned spurs illegal ownership; an especially difficult problem here in the USA, where defendant's rights are a priority; just the nature of the beast, so to speak.

Good luck.

 

[The Snark]

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

... and I saw a toad orgy in the middle of the road. After that view, you just cannot stay mad .

:laugh::laugh::laugh:


From my cuz: "You always was the monkey screwing a football, mate. Beware them multiple discipline autocrats. They always know more than us humans. Speaking of which, you're an electrical engineer. What's the interest in things that bites?? Don't forget to point out - behind every scietific paper are a few dozen laymen that did most of the grunt work." (He's got a degree in biology, sp herpitology, but has spent the past 20 years playing dendrologist.)

Najakeeper, the Swiss attitude seems very logical and sensible. Certification mandatory then the person is on their own. They get bit it's on their head. Most likely they also have some ham fisted laws in place holding the hot keeper responsible if a bystander gets bit, and severe penalties and restrictions regarding depredation.

 

[freedumbdclxvi]

Frank, let me put it this way. I am probably one of the most left wing/liberal guys you can find in these forums. Believe me, I am all for regulations that makes sense and venomous snake keeping, like private firearms ownership, shall be heavily regulated. I hate the idea of an 18 year old idiot, who walks into a reptile show and buys the cool albino Naja kaouthia for 50 bucks to impress his idiot friends. That should be illegal. Yet, if you cannot separate that guy with a person, who goes through the pain of being properly licenced, who pays extra insurance money, who researches and gets ready for years for a hobby that he/she loves then you should not be in a position to influence politicians about civil liberties.

Absolutely agreed. Again, I currently do not keep hot reptiles, but i just completed getting my conditional species permit, which involved inspections of my caging and keeping as well setting up a disaster plan in the event of emergencies. I have zero issues with a permit system, and I think that is a wonderful way to keep the people who would impulse by a dangerous animal from such situations while allowing responsible keepers the ability to keep the animals they love.

 

[Najakeeper]

So today I drove down to Switzerland and had nice educational day. Yes, I knew everything the instructor talked about but listening all that in German was an interesting change. Also, our instructor had a very nice collection to see and he promised to sell me some rare snakes when I have the Swiss permit so that was great.

He also wanted me to pin and grab a Bitis arietans before I got my certificate since I already have a lot of experience. Well, here is yours truly doing just that:

And here is his beautiful Bitis gabonica:

 

[The Snark]

Najakeeper, have you read Gerald Durrel's Africa trip where he was lowered into a pit full of Gaboon Vipers at night, as he was about to touch the bottom one of his shoes fell off, and then the lamp went out?

 

[Najakeeper]

Najakeeper, have you read Gerald Durrel's Africa trip where he was lowered into a pit full of Gaboon Vipers at night, as he was about to touch the bottom one of his shoes fell off, and then the lamp went out?

I have missed this one. No mate, I haven't but sound thrilling .

Ok, so permit process is complete and I am allowed to keep venomous snakes in Switzerland. I have moved my collection over.

Basically:

-I had to join to a day long course, which I have explained above.
-I had to get home owners insurance which covers venomous snakes, triple the normal cost.
-I had to get additional health insurance on top of our coverage. Only 1/4th additional cost as we already had a significant coverage.
-I had to get my landlord to agree.
-I had to sign up with the local Swiss antivenom bank, no additional cost as I am canceling my Germany subscription.
-I had to create an emergency booklet, which was in line with Swiss regulations.
-I had to fill out extensive paperwork documenting all of the above, the species I would keep and the terrarium sizes.
-A veterinary policeman came and inspected my room, windows, door and all the terrariums.

This was a costly and tedious exercise but ended up working like a clock, a slow but steady clock .