The great balfouri debate, a communal discussion

[fcat]

What research did you find that shows M balfouri live communally? I'd love to see it...

 

[jrh3]

What research did you find that shows M balfouri live communally? I'd love to see it...

Years of documentation on this forum, as well as others, toms big spiders has a few videos. Its everywhere, if you don’t see it your forcefully turning a eye to not. Plus, personal experience.

 

[Arachnophobphile]

There hasn't been any extensive field work done to prove that M. balfouri live communally in their natural habitat. What has been observed on Socotro Island is solidary lifestyle.

M. balfouri communal in the wild?

Ok, I have spoken personally to several reputable keepers/breeders of this species and most have told me that M. balfouri have been observed living communally in the wild. Is this pure rumour? Are there any papers written on this subject? Have any photographs been taken to put this issue to...

arachnoboards.com

 

[cold blood]

There hasn't been any extensive field work done to prove that M. balfouri live communally in their natural habitat. What has been observed on Socotro Island is solidary lifestyle.

M. balfouri communal in the wild?

Ok, I have spoken personally to several reputable keepers/breeders of this species and most have told me that M. balfouri have been observed living communally in the wild. Is this pure rumour? Are there any papers written on this subject? Have any photographs been taken to put this issue to...

arachnoboards.com

All that means is nobody in science is studying it....which leaves 100% of info on the subject coming directly from the hobby....which has extensive info available

 

[TheraMygale]

we don't need to start this debate again do we?

please no

All that means is nobody in science is studying it....which leaves 100% of info on the subject coming directly from the hobby....which has extensive info available

Agreed.

its common knowledge yemen is not a safe place right now, nor has been for a while, for anyone to do safe lengthy research.

Years of documentation on this forum, as well as others, toms big spiders has a few videos. Its everywhere, if you don’t see it your forcefully turning a eye to not. Plus, personal experience.

My dealer has (last time i went), a giant communal enclosure. It was very interesting to look at.

i also watched the video where Dave rehoused a balfouri communal. That was crazy.

i don’t want to open the debate. I think we have all read the multiple threads.

its really a personal choice, and you can get mixed results. Some ways of doing it have better success then others. Is it perfect? I doubt it. Doesn’t mean its not “functionning”.

i am on team, try it, if you’re willing to accept it might not work.

there was a moment i wanted to. I find this tarantula very intriguing and good looking. That moment has passed, i might still get one individual in the far future.

i want a C versicolor first. Whenever that happens. I do think they are underrated, and i think its because many people did not care for them properly in the past.

 

[Arachnophobphile]

All that means is nobody in science is studying it....which leaves 100% of info on the subject coming directly from the hobby....which has extensive info available

Yes but that's with captive bred balfouri. Considering this island is right off the coast of Yemen no one scientific or otherwise have been there to do extensive study.

 

[cold blood]

Yes but that's with captive bred balfouri.

you're rationalizing your position....let's be clear here, 100% of balfouri in the hobby are captive bred, and living in captivity....what happens in the hobby is what's important to the hobby.

We don't give Aphonopelma stupid deep sub to burrow in, because in the hobby they rarely burrow.....in the wild pokies (and most OW arboreals) live in trees, but in the hobby they tend to live at ground level, even burrowing, so we adapt housing according to their behavior in captivity......how ts respond in captivity directly relates to the hobby.

 

[jrh3]

Yes but that's with captive bred balfouri. Considering this island is right off the coast of Yemen no one scientific or otherwise have been there to do extensive study.

I have never seen a tarantula being observed in the wild living on coco fiber either.

 

[l4nsky]

you're rationalizing your position....

To be fair, as are you sir.

We don't give Aphonopelma stupid deep sub to burrow in, because in the hobby they rarely burrow

That's because ~95% of Aphonopelma are being incorrectly kept in captivity, but that's a debate I doubt the hobby as a whole is ready to have. A few of us have been experimenting these past few years and the results are very, VERY interesting. Another participant summarized the theory way better than I could:

I’d definitely believe that same thing, since changing up some husbandry honestly all of mine have been much more consistent. I think the average hobbyist is told “super hardy, just keep them dry with a dish and don’t overfeed” not realizing that they’re built to WITHSTAND harsh conditions, not exist perpetually within them

 

[cold blood]

To be fair, as are you sir.

I am not. I'm recognizing the obvious......how a t behaves in captivity, is what's important in captivity....It's so logical and simple that it requires no rationalization.

Dogs in the wild live in packs, if that mattered in captivity, I wouldn't be able to have one well adjusted happy dog, but I can, because it's not living in the wild.....just like I don't have to grow a whole tree to house my Avics.

 

[Arachnophobphile]

I am not. I'm recognizing the obvious......how a t behaves in captivity, is what's important in captivity....It's so logical and simple that it requires no rationalization.

Dogs in the wild live in packs, if that mattered in captivity, I wouldn't be able to have one well adjusted happy dog, but I can, because it's not living in the wild.....just like I don't have to grow a whole tree to house my Avics.

Well now it's reverse analogies.

So far what is known is balfouri live solidary not communally.

Dogs is a bad example as canines have no relation to invertebrates. Where canines can live in groups tarantulas do not.

It be better to state that the hobby has induced M. balfouri to live communally in captivity. It should not be accepted as the norm. It is not the norm in their natural habitat until further research is, if ever can be done on Socotro Island.

Just because some keepers keep communals does not mean it should be accepted as normal but outside the box within arachnoculture.

 

[cold blood]

Well now it's reverse analogies.

So far what is known is balfouri live solidary not communally.

Dogs is a bad example as canines have no relation to invertebrates. Where canines can live in groups tarantulas do not.

It be better to state that the hobby has induced M. balfouri to live communally in captivity. It should not be accepted as the norm. It is not the norm in their natural habitat until further research is, if ever can be done on Socotro Island.

Just because some keepers keep communals does not mean it should be accepted as normal but outside the box within arachnoculture.

As far as it's known...RIGHT!!! as admitted, NO ONE is on Scotra island researching this, so what's known comes ENTIRELY from keepers in the hobby....tens of thousands of them. What's been observed in captivity is virtually the entirety of what is actually known.

The dog analogy fits, it doesn't matter that they're not inverts, its a real life illustration that wild and captive aren't always the same and don't produce the same responses or results.....I also used a tarantula analogy with Avics in the next sentence that went ignored.

It's better to state? It's precisely what I state....If it's the norm in captivity, then is should, by definition, be considered the norm in captivity, which is where we are all keeping them.

 

[Introvertebrate]

Dogs in the wild live in packs, if that mattered in captivity, I wouldn't be able to have one well adjusted happy dog, but I can, because it's not living in the wild............

I see your point, but as far as your dog is concerned, your family is the pack.

 

[cold blood]

I see your point, but as far as your dog is concerned, your family is the pack.

But not a pack of dogs, right....so a complete adaptation and dramatic difference from the wild where the human would be seen as a direct threat.

 

[Introvertebrate]

But not a pack of dogs, right....so a complete adaptation and dramatic difference from the wild where the human would be seen as a direct threat.

I would agree that tarantulas are too simple to stretch the 'pack' definition in that way. I will surmise that in the wild, a group of tarantulas could conceivable live in close proximity, but still maintain a sense of "personal space". That would be less likely in an enclosure.

 

[jrh3]

It be better to state that the hobby has induced M. balfouri to live communally in captivity. It should not be accepted as the norm. It is not the norm in their natural habitat until further research is, if ever can be done on Socotro Island.

Not necessary. Lack of research shows no norm for this species, it has only been assumed unless we have proven it in captivity. The way they interact communally is unlike any forced communal from captivity. Its almost like they want to. Even the mothers will bring food to the burrow and feed her offspring, nurturing, which is not like other species that leave the web after hatching. This promotes the slings to stay with the mom and not go search for food. This leads strong belief that they can and do live communal in the wild. They don’t just adapt or else they would eat each other every time. Simply not the case. Generations of balfouri breedings prove otherwise.

Its not even far fetched, there are communal spiders in the wild. Proven from scientific studies. If i recall 3 species of velvet spiders are communal.

 

[TheraMygale]

Its not even far fetched, there are communal spiders in the wild. Proven from scientific studies. If i recall 3 species of velvet spiders are communal.

i wrote to BTS about Poecilotheria communals. Wanting more info. They replied with volume numbers where to find this information.

 

[Arachnophobphile]

As far as it's known...RIGHT!!! as admitted, NO ONE is on Scotia island researching this, so what's known comes ENTIRELY from keepers in the hobby....tens of thousands of them. What's been observed in captivity is virtually the entirety of what is actually known.

The dog analogy fits, it doesn't matter that they're not inverts, its a real life illustration that wild and captive aren't always the same and don't produce the same responses or results.....I also used a tarantula analogy with Avics in the next sentence that went ignored.

It's better to state? It's precisely what I state....If it's the norm in captivity, then is should, by definition, be considered the norm in captivity, which is where we are all keeping them.

I get what you're saying but it's one thing if using coco fiber is out of the norm and works than throwing a bunch of tarantulas together. Then crossing your fingers and closing your eyes hoping it works. It's not something that should be promoted as many newer keepers tried and lost some and others close to all of their balfouri.

Even Stan Schultz warns not to house tarantulas together. As old as his books are that is still relevant today.

It's not something that should be condoned or put into a positive spotlight and promoted.

I've read many keeper's notes that kept communals. Many lost some T's in the process and these were experienced keepers not new keepers.

There's no hypothesis to present here. It is not known if under certain circumstances M. balfouri live communal on Socotro Island or not. If one presents a hypothesis that they do then that is false. An artificial environment with the best possible conditions provided and have some success should be taken as a grain of salt.

A hypothesis needs some basis to it than just trying to exist as a hypothesis. In this case if a researcher came out and wrote up the publication describing a communal was witnessed and here some factors to consider. Then one could write up a hypothesis with the basis that it is possible to keep them communal. However with no basis with facts to back it up with then it's foolish to nose dive into communal setups where the risk is the animal's life.

Just because some had success, responsibility especially with experienced keepers should not promote or even condone others to try it. What happens from what I've read is newer keepers losing their tarantulas and being devastated.

Many online sellers have and still do promote communals to make their sales. Yes, easier to move more slings and I get that but how irresponsible that is when some of the buyers are going to be newer keepers

There should be more policing up from within arachnoculture on not promoting things that get tarantulas killed. Facebook and YouTube are almost impossible to stop in regards with this. An experienced keeper knows the risk. Newer keepers are left with saddening loss as well as the money they spent. It leaves a damning impression of arachnoculture with some.

I myself do not care what other keepers do as long as it doesn't further tarnish the hobby.

What exactly is the debate here? Is it "look, here we have success with something that was never documented in their habitat". Or is it "we have some success so we proved it can kind of work" I'm not sold on the whole communal thing because in the end we are talking about the possibility of these tarantulas dying as a result of our desire to force them together

 

[TheraMygale]

Many online sellers have and still do promote communals to make their sales. Yes, easier to move more slings and I get that but how irresponsible that is when some of the buyers are going to be newer keepers

No one in my local is promoting that. I just needed to clarify that. My dealer where i saw the communal, is not advertising M balfouri communals. It is beautiful to see though. I think thats what it might look like, if one was to see this in the wild. Its all theory of course.

I can’t say I agree or disagree with you.

What i understand, is you don’t like how many people, especialy youtubers, are making it a thing.

Tons of watchers without the capabilities will try it, with the result of killing all the tarantulas.

I can get on board with that.

What i believe, with ideal parameters, starting with sac mates, as shown in the breeding papers, a special kind of person can make this work.

Which to me means, it can possibly work. Just not for many people.

But it works. And those who pull it off, have acquired special skills and research.

Even a loss happens in a very low percentage, its nothing that would not have happened if a mm wandered off, in exemple. Predators, flash floods, etc.

 

[jrh3]

There's no hypothesis to present here. It is not known if under certain circumstances M. balfouri live communal on Socotro Island or not. If one presents a hypothesis that they do then that is false. An artificial environment with the best possible conditions provided and have some success should be taken as a grain of sal

So if one presents a hypothesis that they don’t then that would be false too right? It’s your logic. People live communal and still kill, same for every species of living beings that are communal. Probably safe to say every living thing has the ability to kill another of the same species.