The great balfouri debate, a communal discussion

[jrh3]

There's no hypothesis to present here. It is not known if under certain circumstances M. balfouri live communal on Socotro Island or not. If one presents a hypothesis that they do then that is false. An artificial environment with the best possible conditions provided and have some success should be taken as a grain of sal

So if one presents a hypothesis that they don’t then that would be false too right? It’s your logic. People live communal and still kill, same for every species of living beings that are communal. Probably safe to say every living thing has the ability to kill another of the same species.

 

[Arachnophobphile]

No one in my local is promoting that. I just needed to clarify that. My dealer where i saw the communal, is not advertising M balfouri communals. It is beautiful to see though. I think thats what it might look like, if one was to see this in the wild. Its all theory of course.

I can’t say I agree or disagree with you.

What i understand, is you don’t like how many people, especialy youtubers, are making it a thing.

Tons of watchers without the capabilities will try it, with the result of killing all the tarantulas.

I can get on board with that.

What i believe, with ideal parameters, starting with sac mates, as shown in the breeding papers, a special kind of person can make this work.

Which to me means, it can possibly work. Just not for many people.

But it works. And those who pull it off, have acquired special skills and research.

Even a loss happens in a very low percentage, its nothing that would not have happened if a mm wandered off, in exemple. Predators, flash floods, etc.

It's a thing in the U.S.

Hell the whole hobby is a sham.

From inbreeding to smuggling to the importation of tarantulas that don't actually live naturally in some of these countries or supposedly origin to hybridazation among some, are some of the ugly truths.

I used to really despise PETA but now I'm finding I agree with their sentiment. Look at all the negatives that happen when humans enter keeping tarantulas let alone other animals.

 

[TheraMygale]

It's a thing in the U.S.

Hell the whole hobby is a sham.

From inbreeding to smuggling to the importation of tarantulas that don't actually live naturally in some of these countries or supposedly origin to hybridazation among some, are some of the ugly truths.

I used to really despise PETA but now I'm finding I agree with their sentiment. Look at all the negatives that happen when humans enter keeping tarantulas let alone other animals.

Inbreeding is something else, then M balfouri communals.

Many tarantulas are inbred, even if most people close their eyes on it. Its complicated because its very hard to get sac mate information. Especialy if its imported.

The tarantulas you own could very well be inbred. Unless wild caught.

Promotion of communals to make sales, does not sit with me.

That’s not enough for me to think it is not possible.

But i hear you. You have high animal value ethics. Just out of curiousity, do you eat meat, eggs, cheese or drink milk?

I was a vegan for 5 years but changed my stance on many aspects.

 

[Arachnophobphile]

So if one presents a hypothesis that they don’t then that would be false too right? It’s your logic. People live communal and still kill, same for every species of living beings that are communal. Probably safe to say every living thing has the ability to kill another of the same species.

You're not making any sense. A hypothesis needs an introduction and some facts to even be able to form a hypothesis

Example:

I witness local fauna drinking a clear liquid. None of these animals died as a result. I suspect this liquid is water.

Hypothesis:
I believe this liquid is water and is safe for humans to drink

Experiment:
I drank one cup of water and it's good and I suffered from no ill effects.

So where is the facts that M. balfouri live communally in their native habitat? How do you hypothesize when you don't even have the facts?

 

[AphonopelmaTX]

I'm still waiting for someone to clearly define the word "communal" as it applies to any species of tarantulas. Does it mean social or subsocial behavior; higher tolerance of each individual's presence (if so compared to what?); only maternal behavior; etc.? I'm not going to scour every message board, social media site, hobby journal, etc. then make an assumption that everyone is defining the term the same way.

You all do realize there are social spiders in the world so there is no need to compare to completely unrelated social animals such as orcas, dogs, people, etc. Is the discussion whether Monocentropus balfouri exhibits the same social behavior in the wild and captivity as other social spiders, or something else entirely?

 

[Arachnophobphile]

I'm still waiting for someone to clearly define the word "communal" as it applies to any species of tarantulas. Does it mean social or subsocial behavior; higher tolerance of each individual's presence (if so compared to what?); only maternal behavior; etc.? I'm not going to scour every message board, social media site, hobby journal, etc. then make an assumption that everyone is defining the term the same way.

You all do realize there are social spiders in the world so there is no need to compare to completely unrelated social animals such as orcas, dogs, people, etc. Is the discussion whether Monocentropus balfouri exhibits the same social behavior in the wild and captivity as other social spiders, or something else entirely?

Well that's my whole point to M. balfouri communal setups in captivity.

Some keepers just assume years ago that they can be kept communally with no documented proof that they do on Socotro Island. The discovery of them is brief and there is nothing observed with them living communally on this Island, part of Yemen.

My whole point is why would any keeper even do it without any publicated evidence for it in their natural habitat? Why an experienced keeper would risk the lives of these animals in the first place? To me it's an irresponsible if not unethical assumption made at the expense of these animals.

I'm not saying that there's no arachnids out there that have some type of social structure. I'm saying why would someone assume that then do it where there is no proof for it with M. balfouri?

The whole balfouri communal is something that one would expect to spew out of a Facebook group or a YouTube T Keeper flunky.

 

[cold blood]

I get what you're saying but it's one thing if using coco fiber is out of the norm and works than throwing a bunch of tarantulas together. Then crossing your fingers and closing your eyes hoping it works. I

Its not about that....no one is suggesting this with any other species, just the one with history backing the claim.

Even Stan Schultz warns not to house tarantulas together. As old as his books are that is still relevant today.

This species was a complete unknown when he wrote that book.

there are exceptions to every rule,
Balfouri is that exception and it doesnt nor is it looking to disprove the rule.

It's not something that should be condoned or put into a positive spotlight and promoted.

It does need to be recognized....and simple recognition is all too often seen as promoted.

I've read many keeper's notes that kept communals. Many lost some T's in the process and these were experienced keepers not new keepers.

Ive known so many people and breeders that have had unbridled success....way way more than people that havent.....i had one with 10....never a problem.

It is not known if under certain circumstances M. balfouri live communal on Socotro Island or not. If

Its also not known for certain that they dont....and again, captive behavior is more relevant to the hobby.

hypothesis needs some basis to it than just trying to exist as a hypothesis.

Theres decades to base it on.... @Blue Jaye has had many huge communals from the day they entered the hobby....all successful....i consider her to be the top balfouri breeder in the country....her observations are incredible....to discount such things just because these people arent wearing white robes in a lab is a mistake. Id argue she knows more about the species than any scientist just based on volume of experience.

However with no basis with facts to back it up with then it's foolish to nose dive into communal setups where the risk is the animal's life.

see the above response

Just because some had success, responsibility especially with experienced keepers should not promote or even condone others to try it. Wha

many have had sucess, success isnt just a one off random occurrance.

I do agree only experienced keepers should try this....but i also think OWs should only be owned by those with experience.

There should be more policing up from within arachnoculture on not promoting things that get tarantulas killed. Facebook

There is....in this situation that has become gatekeeping and has gone too far when people want to make claims while ignoring the mountains of successful balfouri communals....again, this is more about recognition than it is promotion.

What exactly is the debate here? Is it

Recognition of balfouri being unique and different than any other species of tarantula ever observed.

 

[Arachnophobphile]

Its not about that....no one is suggesting this with any other species, just the one with history backing the claim.


This species was a complete unknown when he wrote that book.

there are exceptions to every rule,
Balfouri is that exception and it doesnt nor is it looking to disprove the rule.

It does need to be recognized....and simple recognition is all too often seen as promoted.
Ive known so many people and breeders that have had unbridled success....way way more than people that havent.....i had one with 10....never a problem.
Its also not known for certain that they dont....and again, captive behavior is more relevant to the hobby.
Theres decades to base it on....@bluejaye has had many huge communals from the day they entered the hobby....all successful....i consider the top balfouri breeder in the country....her observations are incredible....to discount such things just because these people arent wearing white robes in a lab is a mistake. Id argue she knows more about the species than any scientist just based on volume of experience.




see the above response

many have had sucess, success isnt just a one off random occurrance.

I do agree only experienced keepers should try this....but i also think OWs should only be owned by those with experience.


There is....in this situation that gatekeeping has gone too far when people want to make claims while ignoring the mountsins of successful balfouri communals....again, this is more about recognition than it is promotion.

Recognition of balfouri being unique and different than any other species of tarantula ever observed.

Ok, those outlines helped me understand where you are coming from now.

I can respect that and apparently what you mentioned is what I wholeheartedly agree with. Only the most experienced should even try it.

That makes more sense now, who knows maybe when or even if these crazy Yemen terrorist get removed an expedition can be underway to Socotro Island.

 

[cold blood]

i am
still waiting for someone to clearly define the word "communal" as it applies to any species of tarantulas. Does it mean social or subsocial behavior; higher

This in a nutshell would be my definition.

breeders have observed many things that i believe show this.

-tarantulas, given the opportunity to disperse and have their own burrows choosing instead to live in the same burrow

-spiderlings not dispersing....while many like avics will stay together for a time, balfouri do it for many instar, years....some even for lifetimes

-the mother seeming to take care of spiderlings, actually gathering food, masticating it and then feeding the young with it....i cant think of any other tarantula where this would happen, much less be the norm.

-spiderlings kept communally seem to do much better and grow significantly faster than those raised solo.

only maternal behavior;

Not only, but i do think this maternal behavior goes a long way in making a very convincing argument...but this alone probably isnt definining...but choosing to share burrows when obvious seclusionary options available as well as the incredible amount of time the slings stay together added on top of that maternal instinct to me is a game changer... or at least mind changer.

Of course I don't pretend to know if this is the definition others are using.