"The Dark Den" Good Influence?

[LucN]

As many have said, Dark Den used to be somewhat decent. Nowadays, I hardly ever check his new content. Tarantula Collective has some great footage, but at some points the music irritated me. And the husbandry seems copy/paste from care sheets.

To the few of you that say that only Tom Moran is worth looking into, what would be your issue for discrediting Dave's Little Beasties (barring the excessive ads) ? I think he's as relevant as Tom. That one vid that a sling (was it Macrothele gigas ? I forget) made runs around him and in his clothing was nerve racking, yet he remained calm the entire time. I have nothing but respect for his still no-nonsense approach. We never get clickbait with him either...

So what's the deal ? Not trying to create an argument, just curious.

 

[YungRasputin]

Petco is only slightly better than EL - the only ones i really would consider to be good are Dave’s Little Beasties and Tom Moran but even those come with criticisms eg: i think it’s 100% incorrect to keep top shelf arboreals in cheese poof containers and subjecting them to ludicrous coaxing techniques as opposed to completely avoiding that with top/front opening professional enclosures - again this goes back to my “if you can spend $200 on a specimen you can pay $50 for an actual enclosure” position

 

[jrh3]

Petco is only slightly better than EL - the only ones i really would consider to be good are Dave’s Little Beasties and Tom Moran but even those come with criticisms eg: i think it’s 100% incorrect to keep top shelf arboreals in cheese poof containers and subjecting them to ludicrous coaxing techniques as opposed to completely avoiding that with top/front opening professional enclosures - again this goes back to my “if you can spend $200 on a specimen you can pay $50 for an actual enclosure” position

There is nothing wrong with cheese poof containers, its all personal preference. Plus if you have 30 spiders this is more cost efficient. I do prefer exo terra though. I never use the front opening of them.

 

[YungRasputin]

There is nothing wrong with cheese poof containers, its all personal preference. Plus if you have 30 spiders this is more cost efficient. I do prefer exo terra though. I never use the front opening of them.

disagree - you can meet husbandry requirements, sure however given how they’re designed and assuming that they would need rehoused it’s a really poor choice for no real reason and i think it endangers defensive behaviors insomuch as the keeper is limited to top access only and T’s are going to see this as predatory behavior and respond accordingly

Exo Terras, Repti Zoo, etc - they’re expensive yes however they also give you the means by which to care for the specimen in a v low impact way and in my opinion, as I’ve been working on building my own collection over this past year, yeah it’s taken me a lot longer to build mine than some people however I still think that such enclosures are the most ideal and provide levels of care not possible in most DIY

 

[Wolfram1]

disagree - you can meet husbandry requirements, sure however given how they’re designed and assuming that they would need rehoused it’s a really poor choice for no real reason and i think it endangers defensive behaviors insomuch as the keeper is limited to top access only and T’s are going to see this as predatory behavior and respond accordingly

Exo Terras, Repti Zoo, etc - they’re expensive yes however they also give you the means by which to care for the specimen in a v low impact way and in my opinion, as I’ve been working on building my own collection over this past year, yeah it’s taken me a lot longer to build mine than some people however I still think that such enclosures are the most ideal and provide levels of care not possible in most DIY

You are too hung up on a "correct" way of doing things in my opinion, most breeders find ways of keeping the animals in a fairly compact container just fine. And the reason why Tom Moran and Dave Fisher are great examples is because they are not discriminatory towards different approaches of keeping but have found their groove. Dave goes for the most visually appealing approach but risks the screen mesh, while Tom doesn't splurge on enclosures and still provides the animals with what they need. Both ways have pros and cons and that is fine.

 

[YungRasputin]

disagree - you can meet husbandry requirements, sure however given how they’re designed and assuming that they would need rehoused it’s a really poor choice for no real reason and i think it endangers defensive behaviors insomuch as the keeper is limited to top access only and T’s are going to see this as predatory behavior and respond accordingly

yes, i do have demanding standards and this is because i think hyper-naturalism, as in providing such a standard of care that specimens can surpass natural lifespans, necessitates such a position and is what i’m into however care and welfare are what’s most important but that to me is just the beginning

i don’t see anything wrong with debates and having to defend your own positions - that’s how everyone learns and improves collectively really

per this issue my argument goes beyond basic terrarium parameters and how enclosure types allow you to interact with the specimen in question

 

[jrh3]

disagree - you can meet husbandry requirements, sure however given how they’re designed and assuming that they would need rehoused it’s a really poor choice for no real reason and i think it endangers defensive behaviors insomuch as the keeper is limited to top access only and T’s are going to see this as predatory behavior and respond accordingly

Exo Terras, Repti Zoo, etc - they’re expensive yes however they also give you the means by which to care for the specimen in a v low impact way and in my opinion, as I’ve been working on building my own collection over this past year, yeah it’s taken me a lot longer to build mine than some people however I still think that such enclosures are the most ideal and provide levels of care not possible in most DIY

Have you ever kept them in cheese ball containers? I have, and there is no issues at all, just because the opening is a little smaller doesn’t mean they are going to be defensive, I think you are basing your opinion off of what you have read or watched.

They are easy to ventilate, the opening is still big enough to work with your tongs, rehouses are actually not that bad.

If we base this off of your way of thinking then they are actually better than exoterra openings because you think they are hard to get out of the enclosure which would mean less chances of the bolting out of the enclosure when doing cleaning right?

 

[Wolfram1]

as in providing such a standard of care that specimens can surpass natural lifespans

We have the same goal @YungRasputin, i really want to see just how old some of them can get and i am not a fan of the random containers Tom uses because i prefer to have a universal system but at the same time i do think he makes the most of them and that they are in no way detrimental to use.

 

[YungRasputin]

Have you ever kept them in cheese ball containers? I have, and there is no issues at all, just because the opening is a little smaller doesn’t mean they are going to be defensive, I think you are basing your opinion off of what you have read or watched.

i’m basing my logic on decades of experience with top accessing enclosures and my most recent experiences with front accessing enclosures - as well as my recent experiences in rehousing with top/front opening enclosures and whole myriad of things really - have i personally kept a specimen in a cheese poof container no

They are easy to ventilate, the opening is still big enough to work with your tongs, rehouses are actually not that bad.

ok and as previously stated basic husbandry isn’t my primary argument here

If we base this off of your way of thinking then they are actually better than exoterra openings because you think they are hard to get out of the enclosure which would mean less chances of the bolting out of the enclosure when doing cleaning right?

how would top accessing enclosures be better than front opening enclosures when it comes to arboreal species - is my most immediate question

i can give a perfect example by comparing the enclosures of my S. cal (Exo Terra 12x12x18) and my A. avic (Repti Zoo 8x8x12 top access only) and say definitively that my S. cal enclosure allows me to interact/work with the specimen in a stress free, low impact way comparative to my A. avics old enclosure

^and further, since moving my A. avicularia into an Exo Terra 12x12x18 i have noticed a big improvement in their overall behavior and temperament - no more stress behavior, no more poop cannon, no more bolts, easier for them to hide while i mist, no more daily destructions of their web tunnel, etc

 

[jrh3]

how would top accessing enclosures be better than front opening enclosures when it comes to arboreal species - is my most immediate question

I prefer a top opening enclosure to a side opening for arboreal species 10 out of 10 times. Majority of the time a tarantula is not going to run up when trying to hide or if they get startled. They will run around, which means a side opening enclosure is your worst case for an escape.

ok and as previously stated basic husbandry isn’t my primary argument here

but this doesn’t have to be basic, the cheese ball container is simply a shell, what you build of it is in the eye of the beholder. It is so versatile on ho it can be modified for even a bio active setup.

 

[YungRasputin]

I prefer a top opening enclosure to a side opening for arboreal species 10 out of 10 times. Majority of the time a tarantula is not going to run up when trying to hide or if they get startled. They will run around, which means a side opening enclosure is your worst case for an escape.

my experience is the opposite - in a non-established enclosure, like during initial housing, what i’ve noticed is that my arboreal species tend to shoot towards the back, up the back back glass, while looping towards the sides (which by that time i already have the doors shut)

in an established enclosure they bolt to wherever it is their den is and a lot of the time that’s a web tunnel built behind hanging foliage near the top of the enclosure (which was the primary problem with A. avics old enclosure)

but this doesn’t have to be basic, the cheese ball container is simply a shell, what you build of it is in the eye of the beholder. It is so versatile on ho it can be modified for even a bio active setup.

this is not the point - i do not contest that basic husbandry whether it be bioactive or otherwise, could be done, in said DIY albeit limited

 

[Wolfram1]

I think that is largely dependant on how you set them up. If i remember correctly you prefer to keep them in their final enclosure and give them as much space as possible, this would ofc make them less likely to bolt out from the side-doors as well, while i like to keep them in smaller setups were i have more control. Because of that i have to rehouse them more often. Again, both have pros and cons.
like @jrh3 said, i too feel much safer with top opening enclosures. Additionally i also do not point the hides entrances straight up. Rather i try to angle them so that arboreal Spiders can enter and exit them from the side-walls of the enclosure

 

[The Grym Reaper]

To the few of you that say that only Tom Moran is worth looking into, what would be your issue for discrediting Dave's Little Beasties (barring the excessive ads) ?

Tong feeding, keeping arboreals in unmodded Exo Terras, also seems pretty fond of reality reversal like describing simple stuff as "faffing around" while unnecessarily complicating stuff and then describing it as "not too extravagant".

 

[YungRasputin]

I thinks that is largely dependant on how you set them up. If i remember correctly you prefer to keep them in their final enclosure and give them as much space as possible, this would ofc make them less likely to bolt out from the side-doors as well, while i like to keep them in smaller setups were i have more control. Because of that i have to rehouse them more often. Again, both have pros and cons.
like @jrh3 said, i too feel much safer with top opening enclosures. Additionally i also do not point the hides entrances straight up. Rather i try to angle them so that arboreal Spiders can enter and exit them from the side-walls of the enclosure

truthfully i hadn’t accounted for this and that is a good point however at the same time i think front + top opening enclosures would give the keeper more control and more options per the individual specific and generalized behaviors of the specimen

also ftr my original comment should not be interpreted as taking a jab at Tom to uplift Dave as i realize we have similar keeping styles because in reality all keepers can be criticized including myself and everyone else on this forum

 

[Matt Man]

there are inherent contradictions in Husbandry and YouTube. Are you producing informative content or entertainment? Because entertainment drives hits and hits equal revenue. So doing stupid stuff that ups your viewership sadly takes over most business models.

 

[waynerowley]

there are inherent contradictions in Husbandry and YouTube. Are you producing informative content or entertainment? Because entertainment drives hits and hits equal revenue. So doing stupid stuff that ups your viewership sadly takes over most business models.

I think that’s the problem. When he started he was a hobbyist, passionate about tarantulas and creating videos that expressed his passion.

Now he has to produce a show each week.

Wayne

 

[goonius]

Re: the discussion on cheese poof containers, I've always been kind of personally opposed to them (ie. not a judgement of others, I just don't personally like the aesthetic). I guess I'm an enclosure snob. I like super-clear acrylic or glass, 90-degree angles and straight sides versus rounded shapes that warp views. I'd build enclosures out of museum glass if I had the skill to do it.

Recently we've branched out to other mygalomorphs, and I have a particular interest in native species. Before we bought our new Sphodros abotti & rufipes from a seller next state over, I researched ideal enclosures. The Sphodros need 5" moist substrate and at least 3-4" of bark for their pursewebs. I was ready to shell out some money for something that looked really nice, but in the dimensions I needed, sans front-opening because that wouldn't allow for deep enough sub, there was nothing. I could have built enclosures from scratch, but knowing my own limitations, I ended up buying 3 huge containers of cheese poofs because they were the only thing I could find in the right size. There just wasn't anything else. They definitely have their place, and aside from the aesthetic and an inability to get good pictures, they are quite functional, and the spiders in them seem very content. Save for sling enclosures, they are the cheapest ones we own.

 

[me and my Ts]

Tong feeding

Is tong feeding bad? I enjoy tong feeding because it lets me get a good view of some of my very reclusive tarantulas, also it’s the closest I can get to interacting with them. If it’s bad then I’ll stop but whats bad about it?

 

[goonius]

Is tong feeding bad? I enjoy tong feeding because it lets me get a good view of some of my very reclusive tarantulas, also it’s the closest I can get to interacting with them. If it’s bad then I’ll stop but whats bad about it?

I just recently saw a guy in another group kill his G pulchripes by tong feeding. The post speaks for itself.

 

[me and my Ts]

I just recently saw a guy in another group kill his G pulchripes by tong feeding. The post speaks for itself. View attachment 414242

Well… no more tong feeding