Tarantula inbreeding?

Pyrelitha

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I was talkin to a T keeper at the local exotics store and uhm.. well he said he kept babies from his female a genic and got some males and bred one to her..
Does T inbreeding affect the babies??
 

viper69

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There's no scientific study.

I don't think it's a good idea at all. However people inbreed, and while people say "no effects", I doubt anyone has studied the life cycle, birth to death for all sacmates that were products of tarantula "incest". I "know" for sure no one has checked over successive generations. If you don't have to do it, don't. If you can buy from someone else, do it.
 

l4nsky

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If you don't have to do it, don't. If you can buy from someone else, do it.
I'm of the same opinion. At first, when I was purchasing trios for future breeding projects, I was thinking I would ID the males ASAP and slow their growth to time the maturity to coincide with the female's (assuming I got atleast 1.1). As I've been waiting for them to grow up and as I'm evaluating how the hobby is starting to get legally constricted and the outlook over the next decade, I've come to the realization that for some species, the bloodlines we have may become the only ones we'll ever have in the hobby. It's incredibly short sighted to bottleneck the genetics now when they are more widely available. My new strategy is purchase a trio, raise them up, loan or sell the males, and keep the females. When the females get to say 65% adult max size, invest in another trio for the species. Raise those up, keep the males, and sell/trade any females (keeping two, one from each bloodline preferably). It stretches projects over a longer time frame and requires more startup capital, but I see it as the more responsible path for the longterm preservation of the species in the hobby.
 

cold blood

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My understanding is that it usually doesn't have issues until 3rd generation....that said, there is no good reason to pair siblings unless its a very rare species and other males are just not available. Logic should dictate this. In this situation, it just makes no sense, as if one really looked around, MM genics are available. They are basically choosing to inbreed to essentially save $60......genics have 1-2 thousand spiderlings btw.
 

Pyrelitha

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Yeah i thought so i didn't say it as I'm a non confrontational person, but that just disgusted me. I have the baby obts I'm raising and i never thought of breeding them to the mom... if some of the babies i kept turn into mm males ill give them to people in exchange for more babehs. Good to know atleast people here agree, that guy is just a one off i hope.
I was thinking maybe yall had seen some incest spiders posted that are deformed since it happens to mammals
 

Storm76

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My understanding is that it usually doesn't have issues until 3rd generation....that said, there is no good reason to pair siblings unless its a very rare species and other males are just not available. Logic should dictate this. In this situation, it just makes no sense, as if one really looked around, MM genics are available. They are basically choosing to inbreed to essentially save $60......genics have 1-2 thousand spiderlings btw.
...not to mention the hybridezation that happens by those accidentally pairing brocklehurstis to genics, bud. But yeah, don't inbreed if it can be avoided.
 

Kibosh

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Yeah i thought so i didn't say it as I'm a non confrontational person, but that just disgusted me. I have the baby obts I'm raising and i never thought of breeding them to the mom... if some of the babies i kept turn into mm males ill give them to people in exchange for more babehs. Good to know atleast people here agree, that guy is just a one off i hope.
I was thinking maybe yall had seen some incest spiders posted that are deformed since it happens to mammals
Sadly definitely not a one off. It's very common. As stated the effects are not known though.

From what we know inbreeding is not good for most animals health though. Repetition of negative genetic traits is never good, though there are many animals that suffer little genetic problems from it and even others that just make genetic clones of themselves without breeding like Callisaurus draconoides.

Honestly without research I would just ear on the side of caution like others have stated.

Really excited to dip my toe into breeding T's this year.

I once sent off a beloved male A. Chalcodes of mine to someone on these forums who is no longer active simply in exchange for some of the slings and they ghosted me.

I am hoping to redeem this by breeding and trading T's of my own starting with some Aphonopelma.

...not to mention the hybridezation that happens by those accidentally pairing brocklehurstis to genics, bud. But yeah, don't inbreed if it can be avoided.
Yeah the hybridization in a family of animals that is already very poorly understood or studied really pisses me off. Like let's throw more wood on a dumpster fire.

Accidental... ok whatever, mostly can't be helped though still a problem.

Intentional inbreeding? Gods help us all haha another stone to help kill the hobby.
 

Storm76

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Yeah the hybridization in a family of animals that is already very poorly understood or studied really pisses me off. Like let's throw more wood on a dumpster fire.
I've seen quite some brocklehurstis lately labeled as genics the past couple years. Hence I only buy from reputable sources, which of course, makes it difficult for newer breeders to establish themself, but that's just how it goes. The problem is some (probably the minority) doesn't do their research and listen only to what others say - and that may not be correct either. In this hobby always double-check to be on the safe side especially when it comes to breeding.
 

TheHound

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I've seen it postulated that the reason male tarantulas sexually mature at such a different rate from females is to prevent inbreeding, which, if true, would suggest that it is not a good idea. Even if not true, looking across the animal kingdom inbreeding would seem to be something of a universal no-no, even if it may sometimes take consistent practice over a couple of generations for deleterious effects to be seen.
 

The Grym Reaper

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I've seen quite some brocklehurstis lately labeled as genics the past couple years.
Hobby "brocklehursti" are geniculata as far as I'm aware, the real A. brocklehursti is a junior synonym of A. theraphosoides and is easily distinguishable from A. geniculata.
 

Table

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Assuming that inbreeding is bad (and why wouldn't it be) how are you supposed to know if their related? Even if you get the Ts from completely different sellers they could still be siblings. How are breaders supposed to combat this?
 

8 legged

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I was talkin to a T keeper at the local exotics store and uhm.. well he said he kept babies from his female a genic and got some males and bred one to her..
Does T inbreeding affect the babies??
I would avoid inbreeding as far as possible, that means you shouldn't knowingly mate siblings. I have no evidence for the following statement, but there is some logic behind it:
There are seldom animals from CB that have not come into contact with incest at some point. Even if you use animals from other parts of the country for breeding, you have no guarantee that they are "unrelated" animals. The legal situation usually does not allow international breeding, so that a certain degree of kinship can hardly be avoided. Accordingly, it makes perfect sense not to mate any siblings in order to counteract this.
Unfortunately, there is no work on this topic over a longer period of time. But one can assume that the consequences are not as clear as in mammals. I believe that a certain degree of inbreeding occurs regularly even in nature ...
 

Liquifin

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Inbreeding is an approaching problem, but hybrids are not the answer either. Sadly, at some point, this hobby won't be as easily sustainable as it is now. Inbreeding is an issue that is slowly becoming present, especially with C. versicolor in my opinion in terms of inbreeding in the hobby. While there is no scientific study on inbreeding with tarantulas, I can say from experience and observation that the C. versicolor is probably a species that is a victim of severe inbreeding due to demand from the hobby.
 

Pyrelitha

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I've seen it postulated that the reason male tarantulas sexually mature at such a different rate from females is to prevent inbreeding, which, if true, would suggest that it is not a good idea. Even if not true, looking across the animal kingdom inbreeding would seem to be something of a universal no-no, even if it may sometimes take consistent practice over a couple of generations for deleterious effects to be seen.
well yeah this would apply to their siblings, not their mom.
and yeah thats what I expected to see and hear about is some deformed Ts
 

l4nsky

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Assuming that inbreeding is bad (and why wouldn't it be) how are you supposed to know if their related? Even if you get the Ts from completely different sellers they could still be siblings. How are breaders supposed to combat this?
Ask the dealers about any information they are willing to share. Try to get different sizes at the same time, raise up some then purchase slings again from another dealer (you may get half siblings this way, but its better than sibling to sibling or mother to offspring inbreeding) or if you know yours was CB stateside, try to get different sized specimens from a dealer that imports. There are no guaranteed methods, but some strategy is better than no strategy at all.
 

TheHound

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well yeah this would apply to their siblings, not their mom.
and yeah thats what I expected to see and hear about is some deformed Ts
The point is it implies that close relative inbreeding is undesirable in tarantulas, perhaps unsurprisingly.
 

Venom1080

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I'm aware of that.
How do you tell them apart?

@Kibosh I had that happen as well. Will never deal with inactive members again.

I read once that psalmopoeus pulcher in the hobby is descended from just one pair. And P metallica from just a small group. If there are deformities, theyre not very obvious or detrimental.
 

sk063

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Inbreeding should be avoided IMO, it's been well documented in many other species to be detrimental to the animals health. " at least somewhere down the line " I'd suggest getting creative, buy several that most likely came from the same sac, and find someone to trade with or sell and buy adults as needed.
 

Storm76

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How do you tell them apart?

@Kibosh I had that happen as well. Will never deal with inactive members again.

I read once that psalmopoeus pulcher in the hobby is descended from just one pair. And P metallica from just a small group. If there are deformities, theyre not very obvious or detrimental.
I will refer you to this thread CLICKY in terms of geniculata/brocklehursti thematic. José explained it nicely in post #27 of that thread (@Exoskeleton Invertebrates)
 
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