Some Sick Ppl Out There

[357wheelgunner]

My dog (german shepherd) at a half dozen or so wasps and bees already today, while sitting on the porch. She's real good about protecting our daughter against any percieved threat.

 

[JMoran1097]

I'm glad to know there are others on board with me. Jayzun made a great point : Being a speciest is the outright dumbest thing that others can attempt to justify.

 

[hairmetalspider]

no. yes. yes. yes.


let me guess, you're going to take the typical "oh well you're killing a million bugs by living in a house" when clearly I'm arguing a method of choice.

logically and purposely killing wasps to make them a decoration...how isn't this wrong?

I'm going to agree with you, particularly on the point if it being tacky.

I don't believe using the argument of an organism simply not being aware is a good enough one to use in the term of death.
But, truth is, there are people who are going to feel that way, and you're not going to convince them otherwise. (On a broader and I believe a more common scale, the same way some people see a 'dog' as a 'dog', and not a companion or pet as a lot do.)
Especially in these forums, sometimes you just have to let things go.
I agree with you but as said previously, it's not worth the war of words with those who cannot to listen, or rather, won't.

 

[hairmetalspider]

so now Im ignorant? Dont get bent out of shape, sheesh

Sometimes people just get angry when they don't understand...

 

[Cirith Ungol]

This got me thinking, while there seems to be an eagerness to ascribe certain values to lives (which I refuse to do in this context, but some of you may find the following fun to think about)...

Most people on this board keep predatory pets. There is no question, in order to keep them alive you have to feed them with other animals. A T for example can be fed mealworms, roaches, mice, snakes, crickets, wasps, flies, maggots, fish, shrimp, superworms, frogs, beetles... the list is endless.

Now I wonder, is anyone here who is outraged at the wasp killing who has fed their T an invertabrate? Anyone here who has fed their T more than a bare minimum? Maybe because feeding the T was, (oh shock...!) fun?

Obviously the animal being fed, whatever its kind, will get nourishment from being fed, but if it wasn't conceivable that the animal was clearly hungry or in a real need of food at that time (which can be said for 95% of Ts at all times since the only time it may be seen as relatively important they eat, is after a shed) then feeding is more for your entertainment than out of necessity. My parahybana male went without food for nearly 1½ years, ate one roach and went on another 6 months fast. So how many roaches were saved by him not eating? Is he a good boy for not eating more than he really really needed to, in order to hang on to life?

Point being, I think a lot of people here are hypocritical about this subject. If you really are convinced that a single insect's life matters then see over your feeding habits for example. Think long and hard before you come to the conclusion that your T, scorp, snake, whatever really needs food and at what temperatures you keep them. Because if you are truely worried about this, you can make a whole lot of difference to a lot of insects and other animals by feeding less and by keeping your predatory pets at lower temperatures. And I'm not trying to make fun of anybody here who really cares that much. I'm absolutely OK with everybody who is truthful in his/her shock here, but if you arn't, you better stop your playground bickering.

 

[GartenSpinnen]

Go cry about all the bugs you kill when you walk through you yard or drive your car down the road. I guarantee more are killed that way then people walking around catching them and spray painting them silver. I promise more "horrible" things go on in this world than bug painting, if you dont realize that then go join the Army.
-Nate

 

[Choobaine]

I am far far too intoximicated to make a coherent argument here but even through my haze I feel this is outrageous, people are getting upset over invert jewellry!
oh dear me...

will reply when double vision clears...

 

[JayzunBoget]

I'm not the Lorax for the wasps and I'm not trying to "save" anything. The wasps don't need me for that, they have their own strategy that seems to be working out for them just fine.
I was commenting on a speciest attitude that seemed (to me) to not afford any value whatsoever to this "lower life form".
I tried to put this into a slightly different context to see if the outlook might be any different and I was asked if I even thought i deserved a serious answer at all.
Life seems to exist at the expense of other life up and down the food chain, I have no issue with this. But, even as I take life to sustain life, i afford even that sacrificial life a certain amount of respect.
And if (for those of you who believe so) there is really no difference between chrome plating wasps and feeding off crix, then I ask you, "how well would it fly on this board were I to suggest chrome plating a batch of rosie slings to sell for jewelry?"
Would you be first in line to buy one, or first in line with the torches and the pitchforks to condemn me?
Again, I'm not saying that killing off some wasps is the worst thing that you could ever do. I have done it myself. But never with the attitude that it was a casual entertainment. That, in my opinion is the moral equivalent of pulling wings off of flies. Now who among you would defend or dismiss that behavior?

 

[Choobaine]

want my honest opinion?
either way this is far far too trivial for me to care. it's a SILLY argument


if your rosie sling jewellry was well crafted and durable I'd happily invest.

if you were harming local populations of invertebrates through your actions I would not invest.

I'm amazed we got this far.

 

[Tleilaxu]

Being a wasp lover(And keeper) I disagree with the practice of using them for jewelry, along with any insect for that matter.(Its more fun to have them as pets)

However having said that as long as they collect in a proper manner(Leave the queens) and humanly euthanize the wasp then I dont really have a problem with it.

I also believe that wasps are far from mindless as well. I have seen what appears to be learned behaviors(And memory) and the abilty to associate certain events with certain outcomes, and they seem to "get it" faster than other inverts do. Obviously more study needs to be done to confirm this.

 

[JMoran1097]

I am far far too intoximicated to make a coherent argument here but even through my haze I feel this is outrageous, people are getting upset over invert jewellry!
oh dear me...

will reply when double vision clears...

or maybe when you learn to follow a coherent argument. i think all of this random popping up and making the claim that this is "only trivial" is unnecessary.

i mean, i don't know how you can disagree in the case of insect jewelery being an important issue to discuss.

 

[JMoran1097]

This got me thinking, while there seems to be an eagerness to ascribe certain values to lives (which I refuse to do in this context, but some of you may find the following fun to think about)...

Most people on this board keep predatory pets. There is no question, in order to keep them alive you have to feed them with other animals. A T for example can be fed mealworms, roaches, mice, snakes, crickets, wasps, flies, maggots, fish, shrimp, superworms, frogs, beetles... the list is endless.

Now I wonder, is anyone here who is outraged at the wasp killing who has fed their T an invertabrate? Anyone here who has fed their T more than a bare minimum? Maybe because feeding the T was, (oh shock...!) fun?

Obviously the animal being fed, whatever its kind, will get nourishment from being fed, but if it wasn't conceivable that the animal was clearly hungry or in a real need of food at that time (which can be said for 95% of Ts at all times since the only time it may be seen as relatively important they eat, is after a shed) then feeding is more for your entertainment than out of necessity. My parahybana male went without food for nearly 1½ years, ate one roach and went on another 6 months fast. So how many roaches were saved by him not eating? Is he a good boy for not eating more than he really really needed to, in order to hang on to life?

Point being, I think a lot of people here are hypocritical about this subject. If you really are convinced that a single insect's life matters then see over your feeding habits for example. Think long and hard before you come to the conclusion that your T, scorp, snake, whatever really needs food and at what temperatures you keep them. Because if you are truely worried about this, you can make a whole lot of difference to a lot of insects and other animals by feeding less and by keeping your predatory pets at lower temperatures. And I'm not trying to make fun of anybody here who really cares that much. I'm absolutely OK with everybody who is truthful in his/her shock here, but if you arn't, you better stop your playground bickering.

somewhere in this twisted array of wording, i got completely lost and off base with what you were trying to convey.

re-iterate please. this time, make it short and sweet

 

[8ballphoenix]

Go cry about all the bugs you kill when you walk through you yard or drive your car down the road. I guarantee more are killed that way then people walking around catching them and spray painting them silver. I promise more "horrible" things go on in this world than bug painting, if you dont realize that then go join the Army.
-Nate

Okay. 1) Why is it hard to distinguish between necessary killing and unnecessary? A car is for many people a necessity. They need it to get to and from work; they need to work for food, etc. So, they don't purposefully get into a car with the intent to kill a bug or some deer or a cat. Right? But some waking up one morning and deciding "hey lets go kill this creature to turn it into jewlery" is an unnecessary death. 2) There are more "horrible" things going on in the world go visit your local homeless shelter. There terrible tragedies of this world are all around us. Just because I have compassion for a bug doesn't mean I can't have compassion for human life. 3) I would hope that any one that has served in our arm forces knows the difference between necessary killing and unnecessary killing because thats the difference between a soldier and a murderer.

 

[Mister Internet]

Is "speciest" actually a word now? Like, for real? I'm not going to use it, or ascribe it any validity, but it might actually help this discussion some to realize that there are people who actually think this way.

Also, a "senseless" bug killing is now a "murder"?

I'm getting very confused here... we're still talking about bugs, not people, right?

 

[Mister Internet]

Especially in these forums, sometimes you just have to let things go.
I agree with you but as said previously, it's not worth the war of words with those who cannot to listen, or rather, won't.

.....orrrr maybe it's because of the exact attitude you displayed with this post, that you are somehow automatically morally superior, and those of us who have a different opinion do so only out of willful ignorance.

And you have the balls to call US arrogant? Unbelieveble. Who the heck gave you permission to have the moral high ground here?

 

[Choobaine]

or maybe when you learn to follow a coherent argument. i think all of this random popping up and making the claim that this is "only trivial" is unnecessary.

i mean, i don't know how you can disagree in the case of insect jewelery being an important issue to discuss.

Er... I was coherant, brief perhaps, but certainly not beyond understanding.

Never mind, I'll elaborate, but I find it kind of amusing that your very next post requests exactly the opposite (I understood what Cirith said perfectly by the way, I suggest you read it again until you get it). I have a feeling you wont be happy with post structure until you get what you want to hear.

Ok. Well why is this trivial?
Were dealing with invertebrates.

Is that not enough? Ok.
Invertebrates in general, including the majestic wasp, are incredibly successful creatures that have one key factor (among others) that we shall deal with on their side.

Numbers. Yes.

Wasps use numbers, the loss of an individual is no loss to the hive. Same with the loss of a few individuals, the hive will replace what's lost.

If done carefully and considerately there will be no loss to the wasps.


Now lets look at the moral aspect.

LOL there's a moral aspect.
Hold on let me get my breath here.

Killing a bug does not lead to, and is certainly not the same as killing babies or ravens or whatever shatters your fuzzy little world, why oh why would anyone allow themsevles to be using such a rediculous comparison? It is NOT the same, the invertebrates are just that, INVERTS!

Knowing better? What? You're kidding here right? Having an indoctrinated politically correct mindset does NOT put you on the high ground.
Feeling that you have to impose your little attitude on everyone else (which you are, don't deny it, several of you have not just questioned, but outright complained about my views, that is a call for change) is hypocritical because you're telling OTHERS off rather than doing something about YOUR immideate situation (why not like... go out and make a change in the world instead of complaining here? go on! go make bird boxes and donate to shelters where it MATTERS). You do realise that a few other people wearing bugs will have no impact on your life and it is just moral richeousness to think that you have the right somehow, to tell us we are bad bad people for even thinking this.

right lets get this Species thing adressed. political correctness of THIS kind may kill us.

"animal companion A pet. This is the PC-preferred term, presumably because the older one is thought to be condescending to animals, if not outright animalist. Hence also, non-human companion and household non-human animal. I cannot beleive that any of these acheived much penetration but who knows. 'A person who beleives that men and women are more significant than the rabbit or the mouse is liable to be accused of "speciesism". Even the word pet is now frowned upon. President Bush was recently publicly corrected for using it [instead of] "animal companion"' - The Daily Telegraph (26 June 1991); 'Imagine the shift a children's tale would have to undergo to rid itself of all offending elements. "It's raining nonhuman animal companions," said Wendy and Mellisa's father' - Beard and Cerf, The Official Politically Correct Dictionary and handbook (1992)."

This is the attitude you are showing. Outrageous.


I hope this has highlighted to at least a degree (allthough common sense can do this for you) exactly why I find this entire topic trivial.

Thank you, come again.

 

[JMoran1097]

first off, speciest is a term the has been around since the 70's with the emergence of peter singer's philosophy as described in "animal liberation."

Secondly, I dont see how we can even put human life on a scale of any sort. Just because we're capable of so much, doesnt mean we have the right to mindlessly and purposely kill a life form for a decoration. I mean, this argument would be said and done if we were discussing a pet dog, but instead inverts apparently dont have feelings, therefore its compleately ok. I mean, give me a freaking break. No one is arguing that t's dont have feelings or whatever, but instead trying to inteduce the nonsensical practice of jewlery making from live, fresh killed arthropoda. Its lame, tacky, and idiotic to defend this practice, but condemn dogs being abused.

 

[JMoran1097]

and yes, the morons in this thread just keep arguing in circles which is making you look foolish, not your opinions. And since when did anyone inroduce a pc aspect to this?

 

[Cirith Ungol]

...

I wonder if you're putting on this show of the avatar because my previous post caught you with your pants down. You have surely not denied that its contents fit you, and putting down this much work into trying to tickle my emotions has with certainty its counterpart in your head, otherwise you wouldn't have done it. No problem though. It's quite a nice avatar

Where do you draw the line? I sure don't know where you do. (If you do at all?!) In case you really think what you say, then appearantly killing a wasp for chrome plating is the same as the Nazi Holocaust to you. What can I do to bring to consistency to my life in this matter?
Would you let me chrome plate a dustmite? What if I plan my route, everywhere I go so I only go in as straight lines as possible, using as few steps as possible, then I won't step on anything unnessessily? What is better for the environment? Going on foot or using the bike so I don't crush invertebrates with my weight? What if I use a little less yeast when baking bread next time? Surely since every life is worth equally much, "speciest" I mean (did I use that right?) I could be saving loads of fungi there!

As I said before, I don't have a problem (emotionally or otherwise) with the people who disagree with me on this, but if you don't really mean what you say, then this topic can make you look pretty stupid if you only say all this stuff to put on a show of benignancy because you think someone else is expecting it off you or because you think it makes you look good. Do it and mean it... and I suspect not half of you are honest. You are just pissed off at me (amongst others) because this has become a bit of a right or wrong fight and now you think you have to defend your positions with your life. I don't think you can be angry with me for what I've said, I've not said anything unreasonable here at all. I have only asked you to be consistent and I have inquired if you are consistent in the feeding of your predatory pets by feeding them less.

There is a branch in Buddhism I believe, where the monks walk brooming their path so that they don't accidentally step on an animal. I have nothing but respect for those people, but they don't come at me like rabid dogs attacking me for what I do or don't do. If you feel like the Buddhist way is your way, cool for you, I really respect that, but don't try and tell me that this wasp is important and then in the secrecy of your real life you don't follow up. If this is just a discussion you have ended up on the wrong side off, I strongly suggest you just better back off. (It looks better...)

And that goes for you too Moran.

 

[Hedorah99]

What this boils down to is, if you don't like it don't do it or buy one. I don't agree with needlessly killing anything to make jewelry out of it, so I don't do it and will most likely not buy one. The people comparing euthanizing a wasp to murder hopefully don't own ANYTHING made of any animal, but somehow I doubt that.