SNITCH - Say NO to irresponsible Tarantula crossbreeding and hybridization

[k2power]

Yes the Great Plains rat is a recognized subspecies of the corn and I believe the keys morph is too. If not it is protected by FL as one I think. I used corn snakes as an example of what we should strive for in tarantulas....preserving the genetic variation as much as possible at a population level just as the rosy boa, dart frog and some corn snake enthusiasts are doing.

While matings of individuals of the same species form different places may produce the same species in offspring they are artificially genetically muddied and any population biologist will tell you they are useless scientifically. Researchers are unable to get meaningful information about a species morphological differences across its range, DNA variation within a species and so on from an unnatural cross. On a hobby level hybridization should be avoided but scientifically it has no real bearing in natural systems unless hybrids escape and establish themselves and begin intermixing with wild spiders. Then we have created a problem, otherwise it is just our vanity calling it bad.

I will use my pet store purchased pink-toe as an example. It is an Avicularia we all agree and could be A. avicularia as advertised but not definitely. After that we can't say decisively what it is. First off, the genus probably has not seen the last stroke of the splitters brush and new species will likely be eventually derived from ones with large ranges. Can we identify it definitively from a photo. I doubt it as it seems that many of the genus look remarkably similar so that is out. My next step in determinng what it is would be to try and track down my pet store's supplier to see if it is wild caught and can they tell me where it (probably not likely) or most of their "pink toes" come from. If I have that information I can look up the species accounts to see what species occur in that area. There may or may not be a good key in determing the species in Avicularia that could help too. If a few of these steps produce dead ends, I am left with an Avicularia that may be Avic avic but I do not know for sure. Is it ethical to mate it with another Avic avic to observe the process and undertake the challenge? Why not. Since we don't know exactly what it is I see no problem in mating it with another like it. I personally would give it a try but would be forthright about what it may or may not be when finding spiderlings new homes. They would be great for displays and mating with other questionalble lineage Avics but not for mating with those that have well documented lineages. Those should carry a premium price due to the work to keep the genetic makeup as close to natural as possible. But many people don't care about that and just want a pink toe because they are cute and docile and don't care that it may not represent a naturally occurring genotype.

I feel we should just enjoy our spiders and not worry so much about the little things and put more energy into more useful matters relating to tarantulas such as habitat conservation. We really need to SNITCH to mean something like...Starting Now International Tarantula Conservation Help. that should be our focus so that we don't loose some of the se species in the wild forever.

 

[What]

An ounce of prevention...

Is promoting responsibility across the board in the hobby...not drumming up fear about a non-issue.

I made my points on their facebook page, pointed out their complete lack of citations for their info...some of their members came in and started calling names... My post was deleted. Case closed, a group that hides its criticism is not a group to associate with.

Hybrids are not something to be worried about, as Mr. I pointed out they are not even a common occurrence in the hobby. The double abdomen T in their logo is something that has been documented in "pure breeds" as well. We have NO documentation that hybridizing tarantulas has any greater risk associated with it than normal breedings(other than sterility). In fact, a very well respected theraphosid researcher had this to say:

there are more examples of abnormalities in "pure" lines, than with hybrids.
all the best,
Martin

Their lines about "hybrids in the wild" or whatever are a red herring. Unless you are irresponsible or have your collection compromised by forces beyond your control you have no excuse for your Ts ending up in the wild. Not to mention unless you are breeding Aphonopelmas, your hybrid's chance to mate with another of its species in the "wild" is smaller than any odds I know of.

Telling hybrids apart is irrelevant(another red herring). Both the hybrids I have seen(albovagans & cambridgeiXirminia) have very distinctive looks and would be difficult to mistake for another T... Some of the pokie species are harder to tell apart.

There is also no mention of the fact that hybrids likely occur naturally in the wild in some areas, the ranges of the Brachypelmas are very close together/overlapping.

(In b4 responsible people dont hybridize: http://www.european-arachnology.org/proceedings/13th/215-222_Schmidt.pdf And in b4 "hybrid lover!" yeah, I have a hybrid, here is my post from the infamous thread: http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showpost.php?p=1681833&postcount=196)

Anyway... Take their fear mongering with a grain of salt. I have said all Im going to say, if you have an issue or whatever PM me.

And go ahead and "snitch" on your fellow T keepers with hybrids while "keep[ing] the pure breeds pure"! I think thats the entire message of their group, it sounds familiar...

(Did I Godwin there? Oops...its really more of a "first they came" kinda thing. And see! I can fear monger too!)

 

[BillieJean]

And go ahead and "snitch" on your fellow T keepers with hybrids while "keep[ing] the pure breeds pure"! I think thats the entire message of their group, it sounds familiar...

Don't be stupid! Be a smarty, come and join the Nazi party!

 

[sharpfang]

If you use a species that has a large geographical range, and shows a fair amount of physical variation within that geographical range, you might be crossing different species without realizing it. For example, Aphonopelma chalcodes. There is taxonomic work being done on the Aphonopelma in the US, and in the end some widespread species like chalcodes may be divided into different species. So if you had crossed two A. chalcodes from different geographical locations, and those two populations are later recognized to be different species - you've got hybrids.

Same Dynamic applies to the Theraphosa Sp. "Burgundy" How many well-meaning Hobbyists *paired* specimens, from vastly seperated Locales of French Guyana - ONLY a couple = Don't fool yourself - and do Not "freak-out" and Hate someone about it either

Tarantula taxonomy is still a bit cloudy for some of the popular groups of tarantulas, and misidentified species are not rare in the hobby. Hybrids are SOMETIMES sterile, but certainly not always. Sterile hybrids are generally the result of crossing two animals that are fairly closely related but have a different number of chromosome pairs. But if two closely related species of tarantula that have the same number of chromosome pairs are bred together, there's a good chance their offspring will be able to breed and multiply.

Thus, it's also MORE likely, that the two specimens were BOTH, Sub-Species of the Same species. And w/ some more research and experimenting, that may in some cases - of Over-Lapping boundary T's {like Brachy's & Aphono's}, be proven-out over the years...Or we could go back into the Dark Ages of knowledge in the Hobby

I have seen more than a couple examples of Ball Python & Woma crosses - I don't feel it is a useful *project*, but, I did Not give the Breeders Suga-Honey-Iced-Tea bout' it, and they even let me Hold a specimen {quite odd combo}

I am not trying to stir the pot, nor even keep this thread alive. BUT as a genetics researcher AND the registrar for the Am. Donkey and Mule Soc...

Here goes.

Mules are true hybrids. They are the result of crossing a donkey to a horse (a hinny is for all practical purposes a mule, stallion x jennet, instead of jack x mare). Donkeys have 62 chromosomes, horses have 64, mules/hinnies have 63. F1 crosses (half donkey, half horse) are sterile 100% of the time if male, 1:1,000,000 females is fertile. This has also been shown to be the case in cat hybrids (Bengal cats). The F1 males are sterile, only when F3 (87.5% domestic cat) is reached are the males reliably fertile.

IF tarantulas have different chromosome counts in different species, then yes, you would have strange hybrids all over the place, and some would be sterile. If not, the line is blurred, as with breeding dogs. All dogs have the same chromosome count, regardless of "breed". Cross a boxer to a dachshund and you still have a dog, not a mule. Eventual cross-breeding of all sorts of dogs produces the Pariah-type dog, a generic, hardy mutt.

Crossbreeding between two species, done long enough, with careful selection, can create a new breed (the Morgan Horse is an example). But it takes many generations of animals, and there will be excellent animals, culls, some that have all of the characteristics of one parent breed, some that are a blend.

In recreating an endangered breed, the males from the endangered breed are crossed back to females that are similar in type (creating halfbreds, or F1s) and then again and again until the F4 or F5 generation, which is nearly pure. With no recordable breeding records for most inverts, who would know how to keep track and be sure?

It's known that pet animals are released into the wild all the time. Cross-breeding COULD occur this way as well. As a T owner, I'd prefer to see pure-bred as long as possible.

Just my input.

Marga

And interesting input it is - Is it Not Hypothesized, that a Wooly Mammoth can be re-created "Jurrasic Park" style

And what Continent did B. Angustum & B. Sabulosum originate Could they even in the Realm-of-Possibility, be from the cross-breeding and Natural Selection of other Brachypelma Sp. combinations ?

I guess what I'm asking is, why are you right on this and everyone who is indifferent or likes hybrids is wrong?

:?

Do we know for sure the purity of what tarantulas we have right now. Not unless we caught it ourselves and even then there are questions about what it is. Same goes for wild caught except we dont know exactly where it is from so in some cases we may not know exactly what it is. Even with breeding tarantulas of a single species we may be breeding tarantulas together from two separate populations that would have never mixed in the first place (eg. an island form with a mainland form or two members from opposite ends of the range). So in a sense we have already mixed genes that would have never mixed. I do not think we shouldn't keep lines as pure as possible but also it is not the end of the world if some mixing occurs as it has already happened by now and we are happy with what we have now arent we? I am unless they stop eating or have other problems.

Don't you desire an A.K.C. "papered" tarantula :razz: My beloved Black Labrador {Not even from that Country } "Sophie" once had in her ancestry, a Father - bred back to the Daughter = to ensure the likelihood of Blonde offspring Only detectable w/ the EXTENDED family-tree I purchased......A.K.C. can easily trace back to the 70's w/ Labs, & Money.

It's NOT, the End-O-the-World! And to think, some people used to Whole-Heartedly & Adamently beleive - That our Planet was FLAT

"The End of the World, is right over that Horizon!"

There's always unknowns...

And there Always will be - No one individual, is Truely, a Know-it-All - Unless they have a MASTERS in "Life-Sciences"

I'm going to be perfectly honest and just say that I had no idea this "problem" was even REMOTELY prevalent enough to warrant a call to action/cause/organization. I mean, I'm sure it happens, and I'm sure it's better for everyone if it doesn't, but like, a CAUSE?

Maybe I'm sheltered. I've been keeping T's for almost a decade and I've never even had a hybrid offered to me.

You can have one of Mine *Tee-Hee* - just don't Muddy the Hobby w/ it

An ounce of prevention...

And a Pound of "PURIST" ;P

And ALL your Pulchra specimens came from a tight-knit LOCALE, and were Guaranteed to have ended up in your collection - via an Originally tracable, COMPLETELY Legal process & documentation out of BRAZIL, 2-your-door, right

....preserving the genetic variation as much as possible at a population level just as the rosy boa, dart frog and some corn snake enthusiasts are doing.

While matings of individuals of the same species form different places may produce the same species in offspring they are artificially genetically muddied and any population biologist will tell you they are useless scientifically. Researchers are unable to get meaningful information about a species morphological differences across its range, DNA variation within a species and so on from an unnatural cross. On a hobby level hybridization should be avoided but scientifically it has no real bearing in natural systems unless hybrids escape and establish themselves and begin intermixing with wild spiders. Then we have created a problem, otherwise it is just our vanity calling it bad.

I feel we should just enjoy our spiders and not worry so much about the little things and put more energy into more useful matters relating to tarantulas such as habitat conservation. We really need to SNITCH to mean something like...Starting Now International Tarantula Conservation Help. that should be our focus so that we don't loose some of the se species in the wild forever.

Like GENETICALLY altered Tomatoes "Attack of the...."

Ironically Even though I crossed a Brachypelma Albopilosum w/ a Brachypelma Vagans = OMG

My obsession w/ captive creatures started w/ Rosy Boas and I religiously kept the precise Locale specimens distinct, and never "mixed" outside a few miles of type-specimens {thanx to collecting, and the Long-term efforts of Jerry Hartley & Randy Wright :worship:}
I had Clear Representation of: Anerys, Axanthics, Albinos, etc. Multiple seperate lines, locales. Was alotta Fun :razz: Fascinating creatures.

I do Not agree w/ crossing KINGS & CORNS, but I am Not gonna dislike, or Hate :evil: someone for it = *Sheesh*
IMO - when a person get's All, That upset bout' it :8o:8o They are ONLY hurting themselves, and their Own, Energy :clap:

Is promoting responsibility across the board in the hobby...not drumming up fear about a non-issue.

I made my points on their facebook page, pointed out their complete lack of citations for their info...some of their members came in and started calling names... My post was deleted. Case closed, a group that hides its criticism is not a group to associate with.

Hybrids are not something to be worried about, as Mr. I pointed out they are not even a common occurrence in the hobby. The double abdomen T in their logo is something that has been documented in "pure breeds" as well. We have NO documentation that hybridizing tarantulas has any greater risk associated with it than normal breedings(other than sterility).
Their lines about "hybrids in the wild" or whatever are a red herring. Unless you are irresponsible or have your collection compromised by forces beyond your control you have no excuse for your Ts ending up in the wild. Not to mention unless you are breeding Aphonopelmas, your hybrid's chance to mate with another of its species in the "wild" is smaller than any odds I know of.

Telling hybrids apart is irrelevant(another red herring). Both the hybrids I have seen(albovagans & cambridgeiXirminia) have very distinctive looks and would be difficult to mistake for another T... Some of the pokie species are harder to tell apart.

There is also no mention of the fact that hybrids likely occur naturally in the wild in some areas, the ranges of the Brachypelmas are very close together/overlapping.

(In b4 responsible people dont hybridize: http://www.european-arachnology.org/proceedings/13th/215-222_Schmidt.pdf And in b4 "hybrid lover!" yeah, I have a hybrid, here is my post from the infamous thread: http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showpost.php?p=1681833&postcount=196)

Anyway... Take their fear mongering with a grain of salt. I have said all Im going to say, if you have an issue or whatever PM me.

And go ahead and "snitch" on your fellow T keepers with hybrids while "keep[ing] the pure breeds pure"! I think thats the entire message of their group, it sounds familiar...

(Did I Godwin there? Oops...its really more of a "first they came" kinda thing. And see! I can fear monger too!)

What ? I cannot hear you, "What" ?.....2 much Grapevine mumbling

& Do Not forget Pepper, Paprika, Ceyanne, Oregano & other Herbs

Don't be stupid! Be a smarty, come and join the Nazi party!

Everyone Loves SNITCHES & Nazi's, right - We should be "taught" to Hate potential "Hybridizers" of Tarantulas though.
Let's go Euthenize ALL the Galapagos Is. Iguanas {3 types now}, and shoot the Polar Bear/Grizzly crosses! While we are @ it! *march!~march!*

 

[Bill S]

... And to think, some people used to Whole-Heartedly & Adamently beleive - That our Planet was FLAT

"The End of the World, is right over that Horizon!"

I'll leave most of your post to others who may be more inspired, but just as a bit of historical trivia I'll tackle the "flat Earth" myth. The story many of us may have heard in school about Chris Columbus proving that the Earth was round is false. Mariners of his time knew that the Earth was round and that you couldn't see to the end of a flat ocean. They just didn't know that there was a whole set of continents out there waiting to be discovered. The ancient Romans knew that the Earth was a globe, and portrayed it as such in statues of their gods holding the Earth, on coins, etc. Some of the early Roman mathematicians and philosophers had even calculated (with pretty decent accuracy) the diameter of the Earth. I have no idea why historians in the 20th century conjured up the story of the "Flat Earth", but they did, and they tried (somewhat successfully) to convince generations of American school children that the "Round Earth Discovery" was a shocking and important outcome of Columbus' voyage.

The "Flat Earth Society" is a purely modern invention, presumably by people seriously lacking a life.

 

[sharpfang]

The story many of us may have heard in school about Chris Columbus proving that the Earth was round is false. I have no idea why historians in the 20th century conjured up the story of the "Flat Earth", but they did, and they tried (somewhat successfully) to convince generations of American school children that the "Round Earth Discovery" was a shocking and important outcome of Columbus' voyage.

The "Flat Earth Society" is a purely modern invention, presumably by people seriously lacking a life.

Yeah Bill, well, "I, have No idea" why using the same line-of-thinking, That people will somehow "beleive", that Columbus "DISCOVERED" North America! Apparently the Natives had Not discovered themselves & their environment yet

We have "learned" much from School Man

Sometimes ya just gotta consider the sources , and use common sense

And thanx to Columbus Day All my shipping/receiving was off a day....

 

[BlackCat]

There are still people who believe the Earth is flat. http://theflatearthsociety.org/cms/

 

[Bill S]

Yeah Bill, well, "I, have No idea" why using the same line-of-thinking, That people will somehow "beleive", that Columbus "DISCOVERED" North America! Apparently the Natives had Not discovered themselves & their environment yet

Columbus DID discover North America. The fact that Asians did too when they crossed the Bering Strait doesn't change that. The fact that Vikings established a short term colony in North America long before Columbus crossed the ocean doesn't change it either. As of when Columbus sailed west, Europe in general did not know anything about the continents out there, and Columbus was the first to bring back proof that they were there and detailed information about how to get there. Columbus was not the first human to find North America, but he did make the discovery and opened the possibilities of exploration and colonization to Western Civilization. It's a little difficult to deny the impact of his discovery (unless you are a devout Flat Earth Society member).

 

[codykrr]

Its funny how these threads wind up.

I wont join a group, but I have posted my feelings towards hybrids, and the idiots that breed them.

Ill say this, If someone sells me a hybrid it will be killed.

END OF STORY.

 

[MIC]

In my place we say that if you cannot avoid the rape just enjoy it.

We are considering all the times if something is legal, ethical, useful and ...... without considering that if something is possible to happen will take place anyway. This is the nature of humans, we like it or not.

Hybridization, Cloning, DNA manipulation and alteration and all this stuff are occuring and will continue to occur regardless laws and ethics.

The only hope to this is to reuse the intelligence, used to create such a morph, to heal the wounds if any.

So, lets play the role of a small God, until a space rock or virus or ..... will exterminate us off the face of the earth.

And do not consider that we are something important or that our actions is somehow determinant. For the Universe we are simply dust.

 

[Scoolman]

Columbus DID discover North America. The fact that Asians did too when they crossed the Bering Strait doesn't change that. The fact that Vikings established a short term colony in North America long before Columbus crossed the ocean doesn't change it either. As of when Columbus sailed west, Europe in general did not know anything about the continents out there, and Columbus was the first to bring back proof that they were there and detailed information about how to get there. Columbus was not the first human to find North America, but he did make the discovery and opened the possibilities of exploration and colonization to Western Civilization. It's a little difficult to deny the impact of his discovery (unless you are a devout Flat Earth Society member).

Columbus was lost when he stumbled upon the continent. And just happened to do so at a time when exploration was at the forefront of European conquest.
He should not be celebrated for anything more than pure dumb luck.

 

[Scoolman]

In my place we say that if you cannot avoid the rape just enjoy it.

We are considering all the times if something is legal, ethical, useful and ...... without considering that if something is possible to happen will take place anyway. This is the nature of humans, we like it or not.

Hybridization, Cloning, DNA manipulation and alteration and all this stuff are occuring and will continue to occur regardless laws and ethics.

The only hope to this is to reuse the intelligence, used to create such a morph, to heal the wounds if any.

So, lets play the role of a small God, until a space rock or virus or ..... will exterminate us off the face of the earth.

And do not consider that we are something important or that our actions is somehow determinant. For the Universe we are simply dust.

So you're saying that we should just give up because it is going to happen any way?
I say no matter how big the foe or how daunting the task...
Never Give Up

 

[LeilaNami]

I would like to clear up some incorrect things said about Canis lupus in this thread.

Dog breeds are starting to be considered as distinct species from Canis lupus familiaris based on physical compatibility. Some are much much further away from the original species and some are much closer. The problem is, no one wants to do the work to revamp the taxonomic status which is also why birds are still in their own class Aves and not in the correct order Saurischia which should contain both lizard-hipped dinosaurs and birds.

Comparing dogs to tarantula hybridization is only analogous in the way that hybrids would rule the market instead of pure species. The issue isn't really what they would do if they were released, but what they would do to the hobby itself. Hybrids would muddle the market and no one would know what they had.

Cross-breeding itself wouldn't be irresponsible if done for science (within a scientific community or for your personal discovery should you choose to write a paper on it or continue the study later in a more professional environment). I am particularly against irresponsible hybridization. This would entail selling the hybrid slings in fear that it would be a game of species telephone as they were passed a long. 100+ hybrid slings floating around is a lot within our hobby.

As was said before, I believe that hybridizing should be done if it benefited the animal or IMO was for scientific discovery. I believe this is the case for other animals as well.

 

[Bill S]

Columbus was lost when he stumbled upon the continent. And just happened to do so at a time when exploration was at the forefront of European conquest.
He should not be celebrated for anything more than pure dumb luck.

Not lost. He had his bearings down well enough to repeat the journey several times and to provide information that many others were able to use to reach the new world. He knew where he was - it was the location of the "Indian Continent" that was unknown. None of the previous "discoverers" of North America were able to report the location to anyone else. The various waves of Asians (later to be called "Native Americans") had no clue they'd found a new continent and they were unable to guide future people to this new land. (They were probably the only "discoverers" who were actually lost.) The Vikings left only vague references to western lands adjoining the north seas. Columbus was the first to go there, report back to other people about the discovery, and provide maps and navigational information on how to get there.

...at a time when exploration was at the forefront of European conquest.

Exploration always precedes conquest. The first wave of people who crossed the Bering Strait didn't have any people to conquer, but they started decimating the wildlife. Later waves conquered or displaced the first waves. This was still going on when Cortez landed - the Aztecs conquered those who preceded them into the Valley of Mexico. In Europe empires had risen and fallen through conquests and reconquests for thousands of years before Columbus was born. Same thing happened in all corners of the world. It's what people do. The European colonization of the Americas was no different than all the other colonizations all over the world throughout history and pre-history, going back to Homo sapiens vs Neanderthal and even before that.

 

[Bill S]

I would like to clear up some incorrect things said about Canis lupus in this thread.

Dog breeds are starting to be considered as distinct species from Canis lupus familiaris based on physical compatibility. Some are much much further away from the original species and some are much closer. The problem is, no one wants to do the work to revamp the taxonomic status...

Dogs have long been classified as Canis familiaris, a separate species from Canis lupus, the wolf. This is not new. The "new" part is that their line of evolution is finally being clarified.

 

[LeilaNami]

Dogs have long been classified as Canis familiaris, a separate species from Canis lupus, the wolf. This is not new. The "new" part is that their line of evolution is finally being clarified.

There are still several authorities that continue to classify the domestic dog as a subspecies.

 

[MIC]

So you're saying that we should just give up because it is going to happen any way?
I say no matter how big the foe or how daunting the task...
Never Give Up

No, I am saying what I have already mentioned.

"The only hope to this is to reuse the intelligence, used to create such a morph, to heal the wounds if any".

I think, this isn't a give up statement.

 

[Scoolman]

No, I am saying what I have already mentioned.

"The only hope to this is to reuse the intelligence, used to create such a morph, to heal the wounds if any".

I think, this isn't a give up statement.

I understand. Learn from our mistakes, and don't repeat them.

 

[VaporRyder]

Could someone accidentally create giant Ts by hybridisation?

Why Ligers Grow Bigger?

Ligers grow bigger than lions and tigers but why? One possible theory explains that the ligers lack growth inhibiting genes and because of that they grow bigger than lions and tigers.

www.ligerworld.com

Since lions and tigers are both in the genus Panthera, does this not suggest that some combination of Poecilotheria (for example) could theoretically result in significantly larger offspring?

Obviously this would be unholy.

“There were were Nephilim on the earth in those days, and also after that…”

 

[Neonblizzard]

Could someone accidentally create giant Ts by hybridisation?

Why Ligers Grow Bigger?

Ligers grow bigger than lions and tigers but why? One possible theory explains that the ligers lack growth inhibiting genes and because of that they grow bigger than lions and tigers.

www.ligerworld.com

Since lions and tigers are both in the genus Panthera, does this not suggest that some combination of Poecilotheria (for example) could theoretically result in significantly larger offspring?

Obviously this would be unholy.

“There were were Nephilim on the earth in those days, and also after that…”

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