SNITCH - Say NO to irresponsible Tarantula crossbreeding and hybridization

[Chris_Skeleton]

Those scientists that euthanize them are not hobbyists. We are. And if you are in this hobby, and you purposely crossbreed, only to kill what you CAN'T take care of. That's complete irresponsibility.

Okay well I will end with that so this thread doesn't become a disaster.

 

[rbailey1010]

Sorry, I am with Chris on the personal satisfaction part.... what is satisfying about breeding two different species together? I dont see how it could be anymore satisfying than breeding 2 of the same species together.....

 

[Great Basin Ben]

Does ANYONE here find it interesting that it is actually possibly to hybridize two different genus, let alone species. The common "Dog" for example, while it may have been hybridized to become the many HUNDREDS of breeds, that it has, they are all essentially still Canis Lupis. BUT the hybridization of a completely different Genus, is an altogether different story! I am beginning to see the ethical delimna here. With this kind of "whilly-nilly" approach to creating "pretty bugs", there's BOUND to be genetic bottlenecks, that could eventually pose a problem to pure strains, if their genetic defficiencies were then bred BACK into the pure (although similar looking in appearance) species lines...

See, you (I) learn something new every day!

Thanks for all of your guys' input. This is AWESOME info...

 

[Bill S]

.... BUT, with that said, haven't plate tectonics, and natural selection been responsible for hybridization, and cross breeding of all of the Theraposidae that we currently have today?

No. Plate tectonics and natural selection do not in any way result in hybridization. The explanations behind this are way too lengthy to post here, but if you drop me an e-mail I'll try to sort out your confusion.

 

[JimM]

I greatly understand that if any of these "Hybrids" actually got into Native Ecosystems, then they would certainly pose a threat to, at minimum, breeding habitat, and prey availability of Native species, but what would be their REAL liklihood of survival? Also, Is this really a common enough practice, that it has already posed problems, or is it a matter of taste, within the hobby?

Look here's the problem, and I suggest anyone considering crossbreeding take this to heart.

First, with the exception of a few aphonopelma species where pollution of the wild gene pool is a danger (and arguably has already happened), it's not about wild populations so much. The problem is that lets say you cross a regalis with a fasciata, just for your own curiosities sake. I'll even give the person the benefit of the doubt for this example, and suggest that they never had any intention of slings ever getting out into the hobby, but things happen. Life happens. You give some to a buddy who says he'll keep them, but for whatever reason he gives them away or sells them...or breeds them.

Let's say he gave them away....now somebody out there has a nice adult female or two, and has no idea that it's not just a fasciata. He breeds it with a male fasciata, and sells a sac of "fasciata" slings. Now what? There's a bunch of the pokies around that are not P. fasciata, they're not P. regalis...they're not anything. They're just a mut out there polluting the genetics of possibly both species within the hobby. At some point down the road the genetics of a large quantity of animals within the hobby is polluted.

This is why crossbreeding, for any reason, whether you're talking about fish, spiders, reptiles, whatever - is utterly irresponsible. If you go shopping for a regalis, you want a REGALIS, not some "sorta, kinda" regalis-like pokey.

You have to be either completely ignorant of the possible ramifications of your actions, or inexcusably disrespectful of the hobby and species in question to intentional crossbreed these animals.

Ignorance is one thing, that can be assuaged. People who just don't give a damn are another story.

Peace

 

[Great Basin Ben]

Look here's the problem, and I suggest anyone considering crossbreeding take this to heart.

First, with the exception of a few aphonopelma species where pollution of the wild gene pool is a danger (and arguably has already happened), it's not about wild populations so much. The problem is that lets say you cross a regalis with a fasciata, just for your own curiosities sake. I'll even give the person the benefit of the doubt for this example, and suggest that they never had any intention of slings ever getting out into the hobby, but things happen. Life happens. You give some to a buddy who says he'll keep them, but for whatever reason he gives them away or sells them...or breeds them.

Let's say he gave them away....now somebody out there has a nice adult female or two, and has no idea that it's not just a fasciata. He breeds it with a male fasciata, and sells a sac of "fasciata" slings. Now what? There's a bunch of the pokies around that are not P. fasciata, they're not P. regalis...they're not anything. They're just a mut out there polluting the genetics of possibly both species within the hobby. At some point down the road the genetics of a large quantity of animals within the hobby is polluted.

This is why crossbreeding, for any reason, whether you're talking about fish, spiders, reptiles, whatever - is utterly irresponsible. If you go shopping for a regalis, you want a REGALIS, not some "sorta, kinda" regalis-like pokey.

You have to be either completely ignorant of the possible ramifications of your actions, or inexcusably disrespectful of the hobby and species in question to intentional crossbreed these animals.

Ignorance is one thing, that can be assuaged. People who just don't give a damn are another story.

Peace

I admittedly AM completely ignorant, and this is why I ask the questions that I do. I am COMPLETELY NEW to the hobby, and as such, hope to be as informed as possible. I try to be as educated as possible when it come to just about everything I find myself doing, and figured this is no different.

Your points, are exactly as I suspected, and I GREATLY APPRECIATE your time, and willingness to explain.

I'd be interested to read anything about the muddying of the Aphonopelma that you mention as well. This was going to be my next question in regards to this topic. I am curious if for example if the Aphonopelma iodium is really just a hybridized, or even isolated sub-species of simple A. hentzi?

 

[JimM]

No problem Ben.
PM me any time.

I'm not the one to speak on the specifics of Aphonopelma, there are people doing the work trying to get a handle on all that.

 

[ZergFront]

Already on there. Good idea though. Now if only we can make one for stupid bug fighting arenas.

 

[k2power]

I personally do not have a problem with it if the breeder is completely upfront and ethical about it AND there is no chance of these crosses getting out into the wild and mating with wild species. That is not likely in the US except for Aphonopelma where that could be a distinct problem. This is really no different than orchid breeding and hybridization. In many places in the tropics and subtropics, orchids are kept outside where the pollinators have the chance of taking pollen to or from a wild to hybridized plant slight as it may be and I have never heard of hybrids being developed that way, although with orchids it may be hard to prove. From a personal viewpoint it would be neat to see outcomes of some crosses and it may even bring light to the relations of species and genera by answering questions about whether or not they are capable of reproduction when crossed (=closely related and recently diverged).

I can understand the desire for the preservation of wild species but I wonder how may of us have hybrids or have bred spiders from widely differing locales that we thought and were told were the same species. Truth is we don't have much location data on any of our spiders to begin with. I can't imagine importers keeping good notes on the closest town an individual spider is caught from or lat/long in the event there is no town or village nearby.. I believe it rarely happens, maybe only in the US some. We have already muddied the locality specific genomes so have species level mutts in many cases, which are scientifically useless for comparisons, descriptions and the like because they do not represent the unique genetics of a given locality.

 

[AphonopelmaTX]

Where's the data to back up that hybridization occurs in captivity and it's effects on any population wild or captive? If phylogenetic relationships within the Theraphosidae are so poorly understood, how would you know if you have a hybrid or not?

Here's an interesting article about hybrid speciation from National Geographic:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/07/0727_050727_evolution.html

 

[ajhere]

im a novice in this hobby but cn u even hybrid or crossbreed a t. i never seen one just heard bad arguements bout it im just wondering have any seen one just wondering no need to stir thngs up

 

[Alex G]

im a novice in this hobby but cn u even hybrid or crossbreed a t. i never seen one just heard bad arguements bout it im just wondering have any seen one just wondering no need to stir thngs up

Yes, you can. I guess what I'M wondering is, if it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, does the average hobbyist really care whether it's a duck or not? I could sort of understand for breeders that hybrids might have throwbacks to the wrong lineage, but if it's within the same Genus with similar looking parents, who is going to notice or care? Or, hypothetically, what if a hybrid was made that was faster growing, more docile, and more hardy than either of the originals? Would it still be unethical to sell this new hybridized T?

 

[KnightinGale]

I had read that the offspring of cross-bred tarantulas, even in the same genus, are most often (apart from not having the best of both parents) unable to subsequently breed and produce their own offspring. Rather like mules. If such were true, it would seem particularly pointless to make them. (I don't really like mules either.) However, since most anti-cross-breeding people seem concerned with keeping species' pure, I guess that book must be out of date. Does this mean that there have been several documented "mutt" tarantulas bred now that have had the capability to breed themselves? Does anybody have any links to studies on the subject?

Thanks,

Knight in Gale

 

[Bill S]

There are lots of rumors of hybrids on the market, but it's hard to say how many of these are really hybrids. Tarantula taxonomy is still a bit cloudy for some of the popular groups of tarantulas, and misidentified species are not rare in the hobby. With new wild populations being tapped into to supply the hobby trade we're getting variations of known species and sometimes new unrecognized species tossed into the mix. Hybrids are SOMETIMES sterile, but certainly not always. Sterile hybrids are generally the result of crossing two animals that are fairly closely related but have a different number of chromosome pairs. But if two closely related species of tarantula that have the same number of chromosome pairs are bred together, there's a good chance their offspring will be able to breed and multiply.

 

[Suzjohnson]

Well, we know it's going to happen and we also know that those spiders are eventually going to make it into the hands of others that believe they are mating true to true. Makes me happy I'm collecting and enjoying tarantulas now rather than 20 years in the future.

 

[captmarga]

There are lots of rumors of hybrids on the market, but it's hard to say how many of these are really hybrids. Tarantula taxonomy is still a bit cloudy for some of the popular groups of tarantulas, and misidentified species are not rare in the hobby. With new wild populations being tapped into to supply the hobby trade we're getting variations of known species and sometimes new unrecognized species tossed into the mix. Hybrids are SOMETIMES sterile, but certainly not always. Sterile hybrids are generally the result of crossing two animals that are fairly closely related but have a different number of chromosome pairs. But if two closely related species of tarantula that have the same number of chromosome pairs are bred together, there's a good chance their offspring will be able to breed and multiply.

I am not trying to stir the pot, nor even keep this thread alive. BUT as a genetics researcher AND the registrar for the Am. Donkey and Mule Soc...

Here goes.

Mules are true hybrids. They are the result of crossing a donkey to a horse (a hinny is for all practical purposes a mule, stallion x jennet, instead of jack x mare). Donkeys have 62 chromosomes, horses have 64, mules/hinnies have 63. F1 crosses (half donkey, half horse) are sterile 100% of the time if male, 1:1,000,000 females is fertile. This has also been shown to be the case in cat hybrids (Bengal cats). The F1 males are sterile, only when F3 (87.5% domestic cat) is reached are the males reliably fertile.

IF tarantulas have different chromosome counts in different species, then yes, you would have strange hybrids all over the place, and some would be sterile. If not, the line is blurred, as with breeding dogs. All dogs have the same chromosome count, regardless of "breed". Cross a boxer to a dachshund and you still have a dog, not a mule. Eventual cross-breeding of all sorts of dogs produces the Pariah-type dog, a generic, hardy mutt.

Crossbreeding between two species, done long enough, with careful selection, can create a new breed (the Morgan Horse is an example). But it takes many generations of animals, and there will be excellent animals, culls, some that have all of the characteristics of one parent breed, some that are a blend.

In recreating an endangered breed, the males from the endangered breed are crossed back to females that are similar in type (creating halfbreds, or F1s) and then again and again until the F4 or F5 generation, which is nearly pure. With no recordable breeding records for most inverts, who would know how to keep track and be sure?

It's known that pet animals are released into the wild all the time. Cross-breeding COULD occur this way as well. As a T owner, I'd prefer to see pure-bred as long as possible.

Just my input.

Marga

 

[KnightinGale]

Hey, thanks Bill and Captmarga. That clarifies alot for me as to how this actually works. I certainly didn't know the part about the chromosome number being the relevant factor. I did know that "hybrid" as a term is often misused. I learned that back when they decided that it was no longer an appropriate term for wolf/dog cross-breeds. Or rather, that it never was an appropriate term and they decided to stop using it for that purpose.
I find genetics in general quite fascinating, but the most I've really looked into them was in regards to colours and dilutions in horses, so it was cool to learn something new today.
Cheers!

Knight in Gale

 

[pwilson5]

is this where i go for some hybrids? you are selling them right?

 

[JimM]

Yes, you can. I guess what I'M wondering is, if it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, does the average hobbyist really care whether it's a duck or not? I could sort of understand for breeders that hybrids might have throwbacks to the wrong lineage, but if it's within the same Genus with similar looking parents, who is going to notice or care? Or, hypothetically, what if a hybrid was made that was faster growing, more docile, and more hardy than either of the originals? Would it still be unethical to sell this new hybridized T?

It's a question of maintaining the integrity of the species, not so much about who knows or cares.

How would you like to at some point, not be able to obtain an actual P. fasciata? I don't know about you...but I would care.

 

[Alex G]

It's a question of maintaining the integrity of the species, not so much about who knows or cares.

How would you like to at some point, not be able to obtain an actual P. fasciata? I don't know about you...but I would care.

One could argue that the integrity of a species is already disturbed the moment it was picked up and put in a glass tank to be fed a small selection of insects compared to the variety it might encounter in the wild. I'm not for or against hybrids, I just don't understand why people are always either indifferent to them or believe they're the cancer killing a hobby.