sicarius sp.

[AzJohn]

If you have a reference to even a single case report of a fatality due to a proven Sicarius envenomation, would you please post it.

Why not just use AB search function? This has been beaten to death.

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showpost.php?p=1669980&postcount=16

Lots of info. Sicarius has a crazy bad bite. Basically your skin dies and starts to fall off. That's just the start. Not a lot of bite reports, due to the shy nature of the spider, and the fact that it lives in remote places. Basically they really aren't were people are at. Unless of coarse we bring them into our home.



John

 

[blacktara]

Why not just use AB search function? This has been beaten to death.

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showpost.php?p=1669980&postcount=16

Lots of info. Sicarius has a crazy bad bite. Basically your skin dies and starts to fall off. That's just the start. Not a lot of bite reports, due to the shy nature of the spider, and the fact that it lives in remote places. Basically they really aren't were people are at. Unless of coarse we bring them into our home.


John

Studies in rabbits - unconfirmed reports - suspected potential

Not what I am looking for

I havent been able to find a single case report of a proven Sicarius bite/envenomation to a human being - and have looked far beyond this forum

While the rabbit studies seem horrific, remember it is not at all a given that the effects of a venomous creature's bite will be the same across different species

To wit - Atrax/Hadronyche bites are totally harmless to felines

 

[blacktara]

Why not just use AB search function? This has been beaten to death.

http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showpost.php?p=1669980&postcount=16

Basically your skin dies and starts to fall off. That's just the start.


John

Dont know where you got that idea, but it' s got no basis in fact.

The studies on the effects of the bite in rabbits noted that the bitten animals developed a condition known as disseminated intrravascular coagulation (DIC). This is a serious medical condition othewise known as a consumptive coagulopathy - you have a tendancy to bleed on the one hand because your platelets and clotting factors are being used up clotting off the microvasculature in your body. Hard to treat exactly because two opposite processes are going on, both out of control - For example, giving platelets to help stop the bleeding tendancy is bad because in the small vessels, the platelets are just fuel for the fire to make more clot

But DIC is not at all skin necrosis

Son, you need to understand the significant difference between suspected effects, unconfirmed reprots, and proven fact before you make blanket statements of the nature you did about this creature and its bite

 

[AzJohn]

Studies in rabbits - unconfirmed reports - suspected potential

Not what I am looking for

I havent been able to find a single case report of a proven Sicarius bite/envenomation to a human being - and have looked far beyond this forum

While the rabbit studies seem horrific, remember it is not at all a given that the effects of a venomous creature's bite will be the same across different species

To wit - Atrax/Hadronyche bites are totally harmless to felines

I've heard people say you learn more from mistakes. I always felt that if it takes a misstake for you to learn something, you're some kind of stupid. The same thing can apply here. I'm not going to wait for this species to kill someone or put them in the hospital. I'm going to assume that the species is very dangerous. Even if it doesn't kill you, you could be looking real medical problems that will last and last. Seriously do you think they'll test this species on people. The reason this species has so few bites attributed to it is the fact that they are very shy and live well away from people. The more contact this species has with people the more chance of a bite occuring. Claiming that species has isn't dangerous is foolish. Especially when all of the evidence points to the fact that it is much worse than a Loxosceles bite. Loxosceles have deaths attributed to them.

 

[AzJohn]

Dont know where you got that idea, but it' s got no basis in fact.

The studies on the effects of the bite in rabbits noted that the bitten animals developed a condition known as disseminated intrravascular coagulation (DIC). This is a serious medical condition othewise known as a consumptive coagulopathy - you have a tendancy to bleed on the one hand because your platelets and clotting factors are being used up clotting off the microvasculature in your body. Hard to treat exactly because two opposite processes are going on, both out of control - For example, giving platelets to help stop the bleeding tendancy is bad because in the small vessels, the platelets are just fuel for the fire to make more clot

But DIC is not at all skin necrosis

Son, you need to understand the significant difference between suspected effects, unconfirmed reprots, and proven fact before you make blanket statements of the nature you did about this creature and its bite

You might be right. I was useing the closely related Loxosceles bites. Your skin might not flake off but all those other wonderful things you mentioned sound like lots of fun.

You fail to understand the fact that a bite from Sicarus can be very bad. Until it's proven otherwise the wise to do is to take every precaution. I know the difference from suspected effects and proven effects. I teach math and have taught science. All the data supports the need for extreme caution. Can you honnestly tail me that you're certain that a bite from this species wouldn't cause a lot of problems. If you can't then you should probably go with the best evidence available. That the purpose of science and study, to get an idea of what might happen withput putting lives in danger.

John

 

[blacktara]

"Can you honnestly tail me that you're certain that a bite from this species wouldn't cause a lot of problems."

No.

I think a Sicarius bite could be a big problem - I wouldnt handle one or condone doing so.

Trying to find some confirmed information

See what happens is that scant or poorly recorded/reported information gets put out there, then it gets misinterpreted, then it gets spread around, diluted and sensationalized - next thing you know the general public thinks the Hobo spider is some kind of major public health threat

 

[AzJohn]

"Can you honnestly tail me that you're certain that a bite from this species wouldn't cause a lot of problems."

No.

I think a Sicarius bite could be a big problem - I wouldnt handle one or condone doing so.

Trying to find some confirmed information

See what happens is that scant or poorly recorded/reported information gets put out there, then it gets misinterpreted, then it gets spread around, diluted and sensationalized - next thing you know the general public thinks the Hobo spider is some kind of major public health threat

I agree with a lot of the sentiment. Panic and missunderstanding aren't good. However, studies have been done on hobos. What was determined? Studies have been done on Sicarius. What was determined? Science is what I'm baseing my opinions on with any new species. I wish we had more info.


John

 

[blacktara]

I agree with a lot of the sentiment. Panic and missunderstanding aren't good. However, studies have been done on hobos. What was determined? Studies have been done on Sicarius. What was determined? Science is what I'm baseing my opinions on with any new species. I wish we had more info.


John

See my post in this same section that references a recent summary article about spider bite

Hobo spider is harmless

 

[Widowman10]

hmm, guess we are back to handling hots when we said we wouldn't. ah well...

and rick, it's allright you didn't know what a poh-kee-loth-air-ee-uh was. it's ok buddy! hahahaha

and paul, are you getting this female from the same breeder/place as the male? or a different source? just curious, that's all.

pretty spider btw.

 

[Moltar]

Aye-yi-yi! These threads always seem to go the same way, don't they? I think Paul likes the abuse.

Personally, I think he's stoopid for handling the thing but that's Paul's decision, not mine. Thanks for posting in any case, Paul. I absolutely love this genus but I've made some promises to family members about the max toxicity of things I'll keep. Sicarius are pretty far beyond that level so I just look at pics and drooool.

 

[Draiman]

Just got the boy out and he sure is one cool dude.
The calmest spid/scorp I have handled so far.

I hope you get bitten.

 

[Venom]

Studies in rabbits - unconfirmed reports - suspected potential

Not what I am looking for

I havent been able to find a single case report of a proven Sicarius bite/envenomation to a human being - and have looked far beyond this forum

While the rabbit studies seem horrific, remember it is not at all a given that the effects of a venomous creature's bite will be the same across different species

To wit - Atrax/Hadronyche bites are totally harmless to felines

Quite frankly, this is really all the evidence we need:

Note: SMD refers to sphingomyelinase-D, the cytotoxin of Loxosceles and Sicarius spp venoms.

It is striking that venoms of L. laeta and Sicarius yielded an order of magnitude more total venom protein upon electrostimulation than the other Loxosceles species surveyed (Table 1). Furthermore, SMD activity per unit total venom was comparable between these species and the Loxosceles species that have well-documented adn serious dermonecrotic effects on human tissues. If the severity of lesion formation is positively correlate4d with absolute amounts of SMD, bites from L. laeta and Sicarius may be capable of inducing more severe reactions than other species.

http://legacy.lclark.edu/~binford/SMDDistribution copy.pdf

To paraphrase, L. laeta and Sicarius have 10x the SMD content of typical Loxoscelid spp. The SMD derived from Sicarius is of the same potency as that found in the more familiar Loxosceles species, the effects of which are well documented. Ergo, if Sicarius and L. reclusa have even the SAME quantity of venom, the Sicarius will be 10x as harmful to humans. In reality, the Sicarius probably carries 3 - 5x more venom than a typically-sized L. reclusa. You do the math...

 

[paul fleming]

I hope you get bitten.

That is without doubt,the most idiotic statement I have ever heard on any spider forum....I would ban you forever if I were a mod.....make no mistake (If that were over here,you would have been by now).
Without people like me.....would you even know what Sicarius spp. looks like in real life ?

 

[Widowman10]

Without people like me.....would you even know what Sicarius spp. looks like in real life ?

???

other people have sicarius ya know they just don't post pictures of them holding the spiders...

 

[paul fleming]

???

other people have sicarius ya know they just don't post pictures of them holding the spiders...

So you think it is ok for another forum member to "hope" I get bitten by it then ?
How many Sicarius's have you seen in someones hand......considering other people have them ?
Talk about the whole post please.....not just the bits that tie in with your agenda

 

[Venom]

Paul,

This forum has a long-standing controversy over whether it is appropriate to post pictures of handling toxic species. It's not just you that people are reacting to--this has been done before with Leiurus sp., Androctonus spp., Latros, Loxos, Phoneutria..etc.

The two main views are:

A: by posting such pictures, one is promoting recklessness, thereby increasing the likelihood of LESS experienced people trying this, and getting seriously hurt/ or killed. It is also argued that it shows hobby observers that we are careless with our animals, which combined with the elevated risk of bites happening if everyone starts handling their toxic spp., raises the possibility of our hobby coming under legal restrictions.

B: By posting pictures of handling even the "worst of the worst," one de-mystifies the said animal, thereby raising hobby and public awareness of the essentially innocuous nature of these animals--that they aren't demon-bugs out to kill, kill, kill. Also, the handler is an expert, who is showing what can be done with sufficient experience and expertise--the whole "don't try this at home, kids, I'm an expert" line.



Personally, while I understand the perspective of B, I'm more inclined toward A. I believe it is far better to be safe than sorry, and I think experts who know their stuff should be showing themselves to be paragons of caution and responsibility rather than showing "look what I can do" --or even "look..they aren't that bad." Most people on this hobby KNOW that, behaviourally, the toxic species really aren't that bad. But venom-wise, they really really ARE that bad. Basically, the people on here don't need the temperament demonstration because they already know Loxos, Latros, and Sicarius are pretty docile. BUT, the forum browsers who are NOT hobbyists ( and yes, we DO get visitors from outside the hobby) will not know this, and will not LEARN this from such pictures--what they will come away with is: "Wow..those people are reckless! Ban the critters!!"

So, while I don't want to see you get bitten, I have to agree that it is probably best that pictures of handling dangerously toxic species not be posted. There is less potential for good than there is for harm, especially to yourself.

 

[paul fleming]

Thank you Vernom for the reply .

I asked the mod team when I first joined this forum if it was OK if I posted pics of handling . They said it was fine.This has included almost all of the spp. you talk about.....and some more.
I have posted such pictures and until the mods tell me to cease such activities,I will continue.
If you lot don't want me or my pics,I will stick with VL then.

 

[PhobeToPhile]

As long as you do it, I actually feel pics like this are beneficial, so long as you make sure people don't get the idea this is something you can just do on a whim. I myself was quite surprised back when I was a phobe to hear of people handling recluses, centipedes, and other "hot" stuff. But it also told me that maybe these species weren't as bad as I thought they were, which led to me doing more in depth research on what I was afraid of, which led me to learning about tarantulas...which ended up with me joining these boards. Of course not everyone is going to do that, but just thought I should share my own thoughts on the matter. Just be careful.

 

[AzJohn]

Thank you Vernom for the reply .

I asked the mod team when I first joined this forum if it was OK if I posted pics of handling . They said it was fine.This has included almost all of the spp. you talk about.....and some more.
I have posted such pictures and until the mods tell me to cease such activities,I will continue.
If you lot don't want me or my pics,I will stick with VL then.

Hi paul, I think you'd get alot of the same reaction on VL.

John

 

[ArachnoYak]

Thank you Vernom for the reply .

I asked the mod team when I first joined this forum if it was OK if I posted pics of handling . They said it was fine.This has included almost all of the spp. you talk about.....and some more.
I have posted such pictures and until the mods tell me to cease such activities,I will continue.
If you lot don't want me or my pics,I will stick with VL then.

Just wondering if you have any videos of any of your handling?