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That would depend on how experienced/knowledgeable the potential owner is. Clam seems to be a good example of this, and he's younger than me. I'm 22 and I own 2 OBTS, a Pokie, and even some deathstalker scorpions.
Should Non-adults be allowed to own/care for OW species
- Thread starter T_DORKUS
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I thought the discussion was about minors.........not adults.
At 22....you are classed as an adult BTW.
This has nothing do do with knowledge/experience......
At 22....you are classed as an adult BTW.
This has nothing do do with knowledge/experience......
[¥] Vote [¥]
I Voted: maybe.
Took me a while to read through this Thread .. many has
made some good point's here .. im not the most Experienced
Tarantula owner around and im not that well versed in law as
well, but here's what came across my mind:
Legally there can be a "Maybe" if certain condition's are met.
I'E: Parental Concent .. Evaluation of potentual Customer
in regard of expertice and Knowledge and so on, done by the
Seller, in this case.
To me it is most important to do what is most right for the
hobby and our Chosen Pet's.. and not to get to dug in to the
whole "Young vs old" Scenario .. we as a whole got to protect
our hobby .. young and Old alike. "The young ones of today will
be the old one's of the future and all that l.o.l"
If there is a fear that un'just rules may be applied to our
hobby .. then one thing we can do to to delay this and
hopefully even negate this scenario is make our own Rules
meanwhile .. and potentially if law has to enter our Domain
mayhaps we would make thing's easyer for them by making
our own set uf rules they can go by, rather than having to
invent their own .. as this may save them time.
But for that to work we got to have a real tasty set of rules
set up .. it has to be well done and well composed for them
to bite "So to speak" .. and also a System that is flexible
enough to allow exeptions to some rules if the "Condition's"
are right.
This can all be done by some of the Veterans amongst us
getting together and coming up with possibly several ideas
for set's of rules that could later on be voted on in Poll's
by all of us .. so we then all agree in the end .. or at least
the mayority.
Suggestion's to this Code of Ethic's "could" be:
[1]
have parent's Signing a type of Release Form for specific
"Hot" Species if the customer is under age.
Condition's could also be "built in" to this Release form
Such as: that the Parental Guardians agree and guarantee
to that the Species in question will be kept under their
supervision.
[2]
"Hot" Species ownership Certificate/licence Pursued by the
Customer and paid for by the Customer .. obtainable after
passing a written exam potentially.
*Need not be too costly or Complex to function i imagine*
[SideNote]:
I give Credit to you all for inspiration to this post ^^
I Voted: maybe.
Took me a while to read through this Thread .. many has
made some good point's here .. im not the most Experienced
Tarantula owner around and im not that well versed in law as
well, but here's what came across my mind:
Legally there can be a "Maybe" if certain condition's are met.
I'E: Parental Concent .. Evaluation of potentual Customer
in regard of expertice and Knowledge and so on, done by the
Seller, in this case.
To me it is most important to do what is most right for the
hobby and our Chosen Pet's.. and not to get to dug in to the
whole "Young vs old" Scenario .. we as a whole got to protect
our hobby .. young and Old alike. "The young ones of today will
be the old one's of the future and all that l.o.l"
If there is a fear that un'just rules may be applied to our
hobby .. then one thing we can do to to delay this and
hopefully even negate this scenario is make our own Rules
meanwhile .. and potentially if law has to enter our Domain
mayhaps we would make thing's easyer for them by making
our own set uf rules they can go by, rather than having to
invent their own .. as this may save them time.
But for that to work we got to have a real tasty set of rules
set up .. it has to be well done and well composed for them
to bite "So to speak" .. and also a System that is flexible
enough to allow exeptions to some rules if the "Condition's"
are right.
This can all be done by some of the Veterans amongst us
getting together and coming up with possibly several ideas
for set's of rules that could later on be voted on in Poll's
by all of us .. so we then all agree in the end .. or at least
the mayority.
Suggestion's to this Code of Ethic's "could" be:
[1]
have parent's Signing a type of Release Form for specific
"Hot" Species if the customer is under age.
Condition's could also be "built in" to this Release form
Such as: that the Parental Guardians agree and guarantee
to that the Species in question will be kept under their
supervision.
[2]
"Hot" Species ownership Certificate/licence Pursued by the
Customer and paid for by the Customer .. obtainable after
passing a written exam potentially.
*Need not be too costly or Complex to function i imagine*
[SideNote]:
I give Credit to you all for inspiration to this post ^^
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- Joined
- Feb 4, 2008
- Messages
- 139
fascinating...
Extracted from IndMED Banerjee K; Banerjee R; Mukherjee AK; Ghosh D; Kalyan Banerjee; Raghubir Banerjee 120, Apcar Garden, Asansol-713 304
Tarantula bite leads to death and gangrene.
Indian Journal of Dermatology Venereology & Leprology. 1997 Mar-Apr; 63(2): 125-6
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ABSTRACT: Chilobrachys hardwikii-giant black hairy spider bite produced two deaths, one case of gangrene of the foot and urticarial rashes in another person in a remote village of Churulia 30 km from Asansol.
KEYWORDS: Spider Venoms; Gangrene
References: 4
Record Identifier: TB3374
The real info is "There has never been a known death from a tarantula bite IN THE USA in recent history" (ALL qualifiers are necessary to be truthful!) and this is because we mostly play with new world tarantulas (whose ulcerating hairs are the most dangerous part, not the venom), and typically we do not have access to the old world ones that can, and are, quite deadly - plus we have a robust 911/medical system to save our citizens. HOWEVER, in other countries in the old world, ESPECIALLY asia and africa where the notorious old world tarantulas are (that do not even have ulcerating hairs), people die in the jungles, remote villages, etc. ALL THE TIME and never get reported due to their remoteness, or are dismissed by the impudent as never happened since they could not examine the case themselves (sic).
:?
Page 145 of "The Tarantula Keeper's Guide", plus there's more you can find on the internet - just look... such as:
Extracted from IndMED Banerjee K; Banerjee R; Mukherjee AK; Ghosh D; Kalyan Banerjee; Raghubir Banerjee 120, Apcar Garden, Asansol-713 304
Tarantula bite leads to death and gangrene.
Indian Journal of Dermatology Venereology & Leprology. 1997 Mar-Apr; 63(2): 125-6
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ABSTRACT: Chilobrachys hardwikii-giant black hairy spider bite produced two deaths, one case of gangrene of the foot and urticarial rashes in another person in a remote village of Churulia 30 km from Asansol.
KEYWORDS: Spider Venoms; Gangrene
References: 4
Record Identifier: TB3374
The real info is "There has never been a known death from a tarantula bite IN THE USA in recent history" (ALL qualifiers are necessary to be truthful!) and this is because we mostly play with new world tarantulas (whose ulcerating hairs are the most dangerous part, not the venom), and typically we do not have access to the old world ones that can, and are, quite deadly - plus we have a robust 911/medical system to save our citizens. HOWEVER, in other countries in the old world, ESPECIALLY asia and africa where the notorious old world tarantulas are (that do not even have ulcerating hairs), people die in the jungles, remote villages, etc. ALL THE TIME and never get reported due to their remoteness, or are dismissed by the impudent as never happened since they could not examine the case themselves (sic).
We find consulations, we learn tricks with which we deceive ourselves, but the essential thing - the way - we do not find. Listen to the river...Secondly, I'm still trying to figure out the meaning of life, and I'm retired.
:?
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the simple factor of this is that "you always see a smart arse who thinks they no it all" .... yea its guna happen one day to a young child hobbyist and for that reason id have to say no i think its a bad idea not because of the fact there immature or anything alike its for the fact that it may which is more than likely cause a hell of alot more damage to youth than a bite would to an adult ...
one of these days a kid is guna get bit by an OW ... and when that does bang goes the hobby itll be banned for the simple fact that n under 18 has been bitten by a ..... "what the papers would say" "A DEADLY TARANTULA" by all means that may aswell be the case for some of our OW species bites towards a child but not only then would people be lead to belive that "Tarantulas can kill you in one bite within 10 min's" theyll also be slanderd and forced into more of a deep hole than what T's are oready in .. i mean therse beautiful creatures have such a horrible and very very untrue "rep" and if this was to occur which it will eventually then our beloved T's will then be given worse names and rumors than what they oready have which will just kill the hobby completly ... people will belive anything they hear god if i had a penny for every person that came up to me and said "aint you scared they will escape i mean they lay eggs in your ears and can kill you" id be rich by now although belive me i set them straight but this is the rep they have now it would be a shame to ban the hobby and give them an even worse rep because if that happend how long do you think it would take before being able to be allowed to keep tarantulas in captivity again a very long time
one of these days a kid is guna get bit by an OW ... and when that does bang goes the hobby itll be banned for the simple fact that n under 18 has been bitten by a ..... "what the papers would say" "A DEADLY TARANTULA" by all means that may aswell be the case for some of our OW species bites towards a child but not only then would people be lead to belive that "Tarantulas can kill you in one bite within 10 min's" theyll also be slanderd and forced into more of a deep hole than what T's are oready in .. i mean therse beautiful creatures have such a horrible and very very untrue "rep" and if this was to occur which it will eventually then our beloved T's will then be given worse names and rumors than what they oready have which will just kill the hobby completly ... people will belive anything they hear god if i had a penny for every person that came up to me and said "aint you scared they will escape i mean they lay eggs in your ears and can kill you" id be rich by now although belive me i set them straight but this is the rep they have now it would be a shame to ban the hobby and give them an even worse rep because if that happend how long do you think it would take before being able to be allowed to keep tarantulas in captivity again a very long time
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- 158
TKG- " ...only anecdotal reports....." page 145.
Death by infection, does not equal death by tarantula.
And We Can ALWAYS Believe Everything We Read On The Internet!
:?<That is correct.
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- Joined
- Feb 4, 2008
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...meaning and reality are not hidden somewhere behind things, they are in them - in all of them
The third lost a foot (possibly due to infection, more probable due to loss of circulation from extensive tissue damage), and the fourth just developed some extensive rash (probably didn't get a full bite load). Both the third and fourth cases are rather nasty incidents, but not as bad as the first two of dying... still, death does occur and we needn't trick ourselves into believing anything else...
And this particular report was from the Indian Journal of Dermatology Venereology & Leprology, not just some illegitimate posting on the internet. Do some research, you'll find more.:3:
"One species whose venom has been studied extensively is the Chinese bird spider (Haplopelma spp.), a tarantula of the subfamily Ornithoctoninae. The venom has been found to contain numerous novel toxins, is effective at killing mice, and has been blamed for at least one fatality in China."
"The Chinese Bird Spider is a rather aggressive species, which will not hesitate to bite humans if disturbed. Its venom is the subject of much toxicology research, and while the effects of this spiders' bite on man is not well-documented, it is frequently lethal in small doses to laboratory animals such as mice and rats. As a result, it is generally regarded as a venomous specimen. There is at least one report of a small child dying after receiving a bite from this spider. The venom itself is a rather complex neurotoxin, containing numerous compounds capable of blocking neurotransmitters."
btw - TKG Pg. 145: 'anecdotal reports' just means they were not published in some journal, not that they did not happen. Besides, the one above was published and still people are in denial - so, what does it take to make some people understand, something on YouTube? (heh, heh):wall: http://www.badspiderbites.com/spider-bite-video/
Most literature on tarantula bites reads like this:
"Tarantula bites are extremely rare and nonvenomous, but agitation of the spider may cause it to throw needle-like hairs. The hairs act as foreign bodies in skin or eyes and can trigger mast cell degranulation and an anaphylactoid reaction (eg, urticaria, angioedema, bronchospasm, hypotension) in sensitized people, usually pet owners who handle the spider daily."
BUT - We're not talking about your average tarantula in this thread, but rather these old world tarantulas typically not sold in pet shops (which is what most literature on tarantulas not having a dangerous bite is about...). So, reported deaths in India, China, etc., are from 'modern/civilized' countries, and there's the many 'backwards/uncivilized' countries that don't get into the filtered mainstream media for us to think about, too. Anyway, I have rescued a couple of old world tarantulas from pet shops - one let me have the cage and all they were so afraid (PETCO), and the other had broken off three of her legs trying to avoid it and had resorted to not feeding or watering it, just waiting for it to just die and go away (Pet Company). Morons!
The first two died, period.
The third lost a foot (possibly due to infection, more probable due to loss of circulation from extensive tissue damage), and the fourth just developed some extensive rash (probably didn't get a full bite load). Both the third and fourth cases are rather nasty incidents, but not as bad as the first two of dying... still, death does occur and we needn't trick ourselves into believing anything else...
And this particular report was from the Indian Journal of Dermatology Venereology & Leprology, not just some illegitimate posting on the internet. Do some research, you'll find more.:3:
"One species whose venom has been studied extensively is the Chinese bird spider (Haplopelma spp.), a tarantula of the subfamily Ornithoctoninae. The venom has been found to contain numerous novel toxins, is effective at killing mice, and has been blamed for at least one fatality in China."
"The Chinese Bird Spider is a rather aggressive species, which will not hesitate to bite humans if disturbed. Its venom is the subject of much toxicology research, and while the effects of this spiders' bite on man is not well-documented, it is frequently lethal in small doses to laboratory animals such as mice and rats. As a result, it is generally regarded as a venomous specimen. There is at least one report of a small child dying after receiving a bite from this spider. The venom itself is a rather complex neurotoxin, containing numerous compounds capable of blocking neurotransmitters."
btw - TKG Pg. 145: 'anecdotal reports' just means they were not published in some journal, not that they did not happen. Besides, the one above was published and still people are in denial - so, what does it take to make some people understand, something on YouTube? (heh, heh):wall: http://www.badspiderbites.com/spider-bite-video/
Most literature on tarantula bites reads like this:
"Tarantula bites are extremely rare and nonvenomous, but agitation of the spider may cause it to throw needle-like hairs. The hairs act as foreign bodies in skin or eyes and can trigger mast cell degranulation and an anaphylactoid reaction (eg, urticaria, angioedema, bronchospasm, hypotension) in sensitized people, usually pet owners who handle the spider daily."
BUT - We're not talking about your average tarantula in this thread, but rather these old world tarantulas typically not sold in pet shops (which is what most literature on tarantulas not having a dangerous bite is about...). So, reported deaths in India, China, etc., are from 'modern/civilized' countries, and there's the many 'backwards/uncivilized' countries that don't get into the filtered mainstream media for us to think about, too. Anyway, I have rescued a couple of old world tarantulas from pet shops - one let me have the cage and all they were so afraid (PETCO), and the other had broken off three of her legs trying to avoid it and had resorted to not feeding or watering it, just waiting for it to just die and go away (Pet Company). Morons!
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btw- definition of anacdotal -
1 a : of, relating to, or consisting of anecdotes <an anecdotal biography> b : anecdotic 2 <my anecdotal uncle>
2 : based on or consisting of reports or observations of usually unscientific observers <anecdotal evidence>
3 : of, relating to, or being the depiction of a scene suggesting a story <anecdotal details>
"Evidence in the form of an anecdote or hearsay is called anecdotal if there is doubt about its veracity; the evidence itself is considered untrustworthy."
1 a : of, relating to, or consisting of anecdotes <an anecdotal biography> b : anecdotic 2 <my anecdotal uncle>
2 : based on or consisting of reports or observations of usually unscientific observers <anecdotal evidence>
3 : of, relating to, or being the depiction of a scene suggesting a story <anecdotal details>
"Evidence in the form of an anecdote or hearsay is called anecdotal if there is doubt about its veracity; the evidence itself is considered untrustworthy."
- Joined
- Feb 4, 2008
- Messages
- 139
Have you not learned anything, grasshopper?
(fyi: root of the word definition - where the 'word' came from originally, true meaning)
OK, so now we're down to semantics? Aren't we getting 'off topic'? Isn't it about saving lives - better to err on the side of caution? Tell you what, you let your grandchild play with a nice old world tarantula and I'll tell mine I'll knock his head off if he ever does!!!
This is the end of this rant :worship:
Merriam-Webster: noun - French, from Greek 'anekdota' = unpublished items, period.:clap:
(fyi: root of the word definition - where the 'word' came from originally, true meaning)
OK, so now we're down to semantics? Aren't we getting 'off topic'? Isn't it about saving lives - better to err on the side of caution? Tell you what, you let your grandchild play with a nice old world tarantula and I'll tell mine I'll knock his head off if he ever does!!!
This is the end of this rant :worship:
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I don't think you can just use part of a definition however.
You are correct, quite a bit off topic. Sorry about the thread hi-jack.
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- Aug 21, 2009
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- 941
Seem to remember an argument recently concerning this......someone told me I was talking ....well you know.The first two died, period.
The third lost a foot (possibly due to infection, more probable due to loss of circulation from extensive tissue damage), and the fourth just developed some extensive rash (probably didn't get a full bite load). Both the third and fourth cases are rather nasty incidents, but not as bad as the first two of dying... still, death does occur and we needn't trick ourselves into believing anything else...
And this particular report was from the Indian Journal of Dermatology Venereology & Leprology, not just some illegitimate posting on the internet. Do some research, you'll find more.:3:
"One species whose venom has been studied extensively is the Chinese bird spider (Haplopelma spp.), a tarantula of the subfamily Ornithoctoninae. The venom has been found to contain numerous novel toxins, is effective at killing mice, and has been blamed for at least one fatality in China."
"The Chinese Bird Spider is a rather aggressive species, which will not hesitate to bite humans if disturbed. Its venom is the subject of much toxicology research, and while the effects of this spiders' bite on man is not well-documented, it is frequently lethal in small doses to laboratory animals such as mice and rats. As a result, it is generally regarded as a venomous specimen. There is at least one report of a small child dying after receiving a bite from this spider. The venom itself is a rather complex neurotoxin, containing numerous compounds capable of blocking neurotransmitters."
btw - TKG Pg. 145: 'anecdotal reports' just means they were not published in some journal, not that they did not happen. Besides, the one above was published and still people are in denial - so, what does it take to make some people understand, something on YouTube? (heh, heh):wall: http://www.badspiderbites.com/spider-bite-video/
Most literature on tarantula bites reads like this:
"Tarantula bites are extremely rare and nonvenomous, but agitation of the spider may cause it to throw needle-like hairs. The hairs act as foreign bodies in skin or eyes and can trigger mast cell degranulation and an anaphylactoid reaction (eg, urticaria, angioedema, bronchospasm, hypotension) in sensitized people, usually pet owners who handle the spider daily."
BUT - We're not talking about your average tarantula in this thread, but rather these old world tarantulas typically not sold in pet shops (which is what most literature on tarantulas not having a dangerous bite is about...). So, reported deaths in India, China, etc., are from 'modern/civilized' countries, and there's the many 'backwards/uncivilized' countries that don't get into the filtered mainstream media for us to think about, too. Anyway, I have rescued a couple of old world tarantulas from pet shops - one let me have the cage and all they were so afraid (PETCO), and the other had broken off three of her legs trying to avoid it and had resorted to not feeding or watering it, just waiting for it to just die and go away (Pet Company). Morons!
Although I still believe that 99.9999% of T's are incapable of killing a person (venom wise and not through anaphylactic shock)
Paul
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- Dec 17, 2009
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Newb has nothing to do with age.
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- Nov 21, 2007
- Messages
- 137
Maybe It will be time to change things if a minor dies or suffer serious injuries(other than having a seriously bad time). A tarantula bite, even OW, is nothing else than a good life lesson and an incredible(and temporary) pain in the ass. IMO, the thing is people already think tarantulas are nasty, deadly baby eaters. IMO again, a child death from a tarantula won't even surprise the public. As long as our hobby does not becomes a "social tendency"(wich is far far far from happening), where every stupid and irresponsible joe in america(90% of pop. IMO anyway(sorry, i'm no mysanthrop(I just hate most people)))starts owning tarantulas of all species, an isolated case of a child dying will not trigger an overreaction from all america. I mean if 95% of the population don't even know someone owning a tarantula, they won't be scared(though I've been surprised before).Even those who know someone owning a tarantula should not be scared(though I've been surprised before), since often they are(hopefully) educated by them.
I don't see why minors should not be allowed to keep them, since they are way safer than a pellet gun or a steak knife:you got to pay attention when playing with them. Parents(hopefully) educate their kids about them, as everything else(hopefully...).
I don't see why minors should not be allowed to keep them, since they are way safer than a pellet gun or a steak knife:you got to pay attention when playing with them. Parents(hopefully) educate their kids about them, as everything else(hopefully...).
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correction?
...and THEN I fully agree ;-)
However, we DO need to be more specific - this is where the info stays 'contradictory' and thus confuses the issue. (i.e. There has never been a known death from a tarantula bite IN THE USA in recent history... the 'qualifier' is indeed necessary to be truthful and not deceptive!)
I believe you meant 'New World', not 'Old World' tarantula (typo?), for they which are way safer...
...and THEN I fully agree ;-)
However, we DO need to be more specific - this is where the info stays 'contradictory' and thus confuses the issue. (i.e. There has never been a known death from a tarantula bite IN THE USA in recent history... the 'qualifier' is indeed necessary to be truthful and not deceptive!)
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The post above makes sense as it was written with "Old World". The post reads "even OW" species. One can take this to mean that all T bites, including the OW species that are said to be worse than most, are not much more than a temporary painful lesson. (One that I haven't nor desire to experience, but a lesson nonetheless).
In the case of your post, why is this qualifier is necessary? i.e. Do you have information to show that some minors have died outside the country or in this country sometime in the past? (I'm not talking about the rumors involving a young girl in SE Asia, I mean actual evidence). If there are no known deaths, then there are no known deaths. Do we know every case, no, but until more evidence is presented, it is fair to say there are no known deaths from T bites.
As for my opinion on the topic, I don't think there should be anything to keep a minor from owning an OW species provided they have the proper experience needed and the intelligence to care for the animal. Pterinochilus, Poecilotheria, and Heteroscodra were some of the first genera I had in my collection when I was a teen. Granted I was caring for animals long before this so I didn't see it as that big of a deal. Maybe stores should be a bit careful who they sell to though. I don't think anyone under 18 should be able to purchase an animal without a parent's or guardian's consent, but provided they have their approval, then there should be no problem.
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Hello BatGirl!
Being a healthcare professional, I have my own opinion on this. I also think (but I don't have any hard evidence, just an opinion) that in some cases, people have died after T bites in Africa or Asia. But you have to remember, that in the case of the majority of the so called 'anecdotal' reports (at least in the case of reports I've read) the death wasn't caused by the venom itself......it was caused by complications like infection....I think in one case, the cause of death was tetanus in the other sepsis.....if these reports are true, we can ask some question: 1. was their death caused by a T?......the answer is yes 2. was their death caused by OW T venom?....the answer is no...OW Ts have much more potent venom than NW Ts but OW venom still isn't as dangerous (although I THINK-don't know, just think-that the venom of for example of a Pokie or an S. cal might be strong enough to kill a person with SERIOUS illnesses, for example serious heart failure or a very small child....or even kill a healthy adult, even in a developed country with quailty healthcare IF the T bite is located in a vulnerable area like the neck or especially the tongue (I know it is unlikely that a T will bite someones tongue, but who knows?)--I don't think a bite into these parts of the body has to have serious consequences, but the odds are higher because if serious local swelling occures, the victim could suffocate befor the ambulance could arrive ).
To anyone who reads this and disagrees: this is only my opinion, I don't want to say that I have to be right....just on opinion.....so please don't want to kill me with a flame-thrower...
Best wishes!
PS. If I was a parent, I would allow my child to keep an OW T on his own over the age of 16 (if he was healthy). Before that, he could have an OW T, but I would do the maintenance.
PSPS. Sorry for my English!
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- Feb 4, 2008
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We are only sure about our own country and its recent history on this issue, and indicating information on this issue without the qualifiers is tantamount to saying something of which we know nothing about like we do know, yet we really don't know - which is deception, is misleading, and in this case can be deadly (kind of like the statements on WMD's in Iraq)...
NW would be like the pellet gun mentioned (ownership controlled by a merchant) - OW would be like a loaded .45ACP (ownership controlled by the BATF) - either could cause harm and perhaps no death, but the latter is more prone to putting you in the ground...only anecdotal reports on this and no firm facts to back this up mind ya!
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