S.Dehaani Eating Live Fuzzy

[RTTB]

I suspect a lot of giant centipede keepers have slipped in a live pinky or fuzzy from time to time but wouldn't dare admit it.

 

[HybridReplicate]

I'd like to pose a question. Say someone DOES find pleasure in watching their predatory pet take down it's prey. Is that really so bad? I mean, I agree that it's a little messed up to want to see anything suffer. But I've always loved watching animals doing what they do best. I love watching a good hunting dog work a field, I love watching an octopus 'become' its surroundings (not that I've ever seen that in person. I watch a lot of nature documentaries). I love to watch my Schultesia lampyrydiformis eating and molting and breeding (seriously. I just sit and watch them way more than can probably be considering normal), but I also love watching my ambly and mantids hunt those same roaches down. I find it all to be fascinating. As @Chris LXXIX said, these large scolopendra are basically little venomous armored tanks. They are extremely well equipped to be able to take down a small rodent with ease (based on what I've learned from this thread). I find that to be amazing, impressive, and fascinating! And I'll be honest. When I finally get one, I'm probably going to want to see it for myself. Does that make me a bad person? Maybe. I'm open to that possibility. I like to think of myself as just endlessly fascinated by the natural world, though.

It's a great question & one I asked myself.

Actually, first I asked myself, "Do I enjoy feeding my animals?" Dialog went something like this:
"Of course I do!"
"What makes that any different than this?"
"They're just bugs, they don't feel pain."
"How do you know bugs don't feel pain?"
"Because...they're bugs?"

& there was my first assumption. So I investigated it & the answer isn't quite that simple. Insects to varying degrees have receptors to detect & avoid damage but generally react to noxious stimuli in a reflexive way, like jerking your hand back from a hot burner. Presumably, however, they do not have the ability to experience the attendant emotional response that turns "sensors detect damage' into pain. There are both physiological apparatuses that when present point to an ability to feel pain & observable behaviors that accompany pain, many of which are absent in insects. The table below from the article linked is worth reviewing, but the entire article (& it's linked articles) deserves attention.



Interestingly a popular feeder, the hornworm exhibits behaviors unique amongst insects that will have me avoiding it as a feeder:

Noxious stimuli to anterior or posterior segments can evoke a transient withdrawal (cocking) that precedes a strike towards the source of stimulation and may function to maximize the velocity of the strike. More intense noxious stimuli evoke faster, larger strikes and may also elicit thrashing, which consists of large, cyclic, side-to-side movements that are not directed at any target. These are sometimes also associated with low-amplitude quivering cycles. Striking and thrashing sequences elicited by obvious wounding are sometimes followed by grooming-like behavior.
​

The answer (as far as I have determined) is that generally there is reasonable doubt that insects feel pain, although some give the appearance that they do. Big sigh of relief, I'm not a monster.

The same cannot be said for mammals, it is demonstrably true that mammals feel pain & experience suffering. I think we must start with an elementary principle that states that willfully & unnecessarily inflicting pain on another is wrong. Sometimes inflicting pain is necessary, surgery for example, & when it is necessary it is acceptable. Problematically, this is a moral judgment for which I cannot formulate a logical proof.

I can say things like, empathy/sympathy is an evolutionary adaptation of social creatures to create mutually beneficial relationships, aids in cooperation & avoids negative outcomes. I can talk about Theory of Mind, that the ability to assume another's mental state as one's own is essential to understanding the other person & is an intrinsic feature of humans & necessary to form a concept of self. Generally speaking, this points to the evolution of a moral sense because it is useful for living in groups.

This human machinery is often (guilty) activated not only in response to other humans but to other living creatures as well. We anthropomorphize other creatures & in attempting to understand them we assign them human attributes. An example of this machinery applied inappropriately would be to see the suffering of the Frog in the video that @Chris LXXIX posted &, empathizing with the frog, demonize the centipede as a perpetrator or chastise those who stood by for failing to intervene. Importantly no one here is doing that, I think everyone understands that a centipede's gonna centipede & our moral imperatives don't apply in these situations.

What I think is happening is that people are putting themselves in the shoes of another person who is willfully & unnecessarily inflicting harm on an animal that is capable of experiencing pain. The visceral reaction is understandable to me because there should be an instinctive revulsion to inflicting pain, particularly in other mammals. This is demonstrable in the positive correlation between repeated animal abuse & violence against humans. Let me be clear, it is not killing the animal that is the problem, it is someone directly inflicting suffering on the animal.

Obviously this can be taken to crazy PETA proportions which I am not inclined to do, but I do believe that when an animal is killed it is incumbent upon us to do so in the most painless way possible. Insensitivity, or better yet, desensitization to directly inflicting suffering on animals correlates to our attitudes towards inflicting suffering on each other.

 

[InvertsandOi]

It's a great question & one I asked myself.

Actually, first I asked myself, "Do I enjoy feeding my animals?" Dialog went something like this:
"Of course I do!"
"What makes that any different than this?"
"They're just bugs, they don't feel pain."
"How do you know bugs don't feel pain?"
"Because...they're bugs?"

& there was my first assumption. So I investigated it & the answer isn't quite that simple. Insects to varying degrees have receptors to detect & avoid damage but generally react to noxious stimuli in a reflexive way, like jerking your hand back from a hot burner. Presumably, however, they do not have the ability to experience the attendant emotional response that turns "sensors detect damage' into pain. There are both physiological apparatuses that when present point to an ability to feel pain & observable behaviors that accompany pain, many of which are absent in insects. The table below from the article linked is worth reviewing, but the entire article (& it's linked articles) deserves attention.

View attachment 233307

Interestingly a popular feeder, the hornworm exhibits behaviors unique amongst insects that will have me avoiding it as a feeder:

Noxious stimuli to anterior or posterior segments can evoke a transient withdrawal (cocking) that precedes a strike towards the source of stimulation and may function to maximize the velocity of the strike. More intense noxious stimuli evoke faster, larger strikes and may also elicit thrashing, which consists of large, cyclic, side-to-side movements that are not directed at any target. These are sometimes also associated with low-amplitude quivering cycles. Striking and thrashing sequences elicited by obvious wounding are sometimes followed by grooming-like behavior.
​

The answer (as far as I have determined) is that generally there is reasonable doubt that insects feel pain, although some give the appearance that they do. Big sigh of relief, I'm not a monster.

The same cannot be said for mammals, it is demonstrably true that mammals feel pain & experience suffering. I think we must start with an elementary principle that states that willfully & unnecessarily inflicting pain on another is wrong. Sometimes inflicting pain is necessary, surgery for example, & when it is necessary it is acceptable. Problematically, this is a moral judgment for which I cannot formulate a logical proof.

I can say things like, empathy/sympathy is an evolutionary adaptation of social creatures to create mutually beneficial relationships, aids in cooperation & avoids negative outcomes. I can talk about Theory of Mind, that the ability to assume another's mental state as one's own is essential to understanding the other person & is an intrinsic feature of humans & necessary to form a concept of self. Generally speaking, this points to the evolution of a moral sense because it is useful for living in groups.

This human machinery is often (guilty) activated not only in response to other humans but to other living creatures as well. We anthropomorphize other creatures & in attempting to understand them we assign them human attributes. An example of this machinery applied inappropriately would be to see the suffering of the Frog in the video that @Chris LXXIX posted &, empathizing with the frog, demonize the centipede as a perpetrator or chastise those who stood by for failing to intervene. Importantly no one here is doing that, I think everyone understands that a centipede's gonna centipede & our moral imperatives don't apply in these situations.

What I think is happening is that people are putting themselves in the shoes of another person who is willfully & unnecessarily inflicting harm on an animal that is capable of experiencing pain. The visceral reaction is understandable to me because there should be an instinctive revulsion to inflicting pain, particularly in other mammals. This is demonstrable in the positive correlation between repeated animal abuse & violence against humans. Let me be clear, it is not killing the animal that is the problem, it is someone directly inflicting suffering on the animal.

Obviously this can be taken to crazy PETA proportions which I am not inclined to do, but I do believe that when an animal is killed it is incumbent upon us to do so in the most painless way possible. Insensitivity, or better yet, desensitization to directly inflicting suffering on animals correlates to our attitudes towards inflicting suffering on each other.

I'm impressed that you put so much thought, and even research, into this. I guess I just come at it from a different point of view. Not to get all melodramatic, but pain and suffering are an inescapable part of life. Always have been, and always will be. That's not necessarily a bad thing, though. If survival wasn't a struggle, then life on our planet wouldn't be as wonderfully diverse as it is. Now, I fully recognize that that's a much more convenient opinion to have when you're sitting comfortably at the top of the food chain, and you're not the one being paralyzed with venom and (arguably) eaten alive. I get that. And there's no way I would have such a nonchalant attitude toward pain and suffering if we were talking about someone I love, or any child for that matter. I guess I'm a hypocrite. But who isn't? At least I can admit that.

Which brings me back to why I originally commented on this thread. We all do things every day that are incredibly destructive to the natural world around us. If you eat factory farmed meat, those animals are treated in a way that, IMO, is WAY more immoral than allowing a scolopendra to be a scolopendra by killing and eating a mouse. I guess my problem is that people are so quick to pass judgement on someone else (whether warranted or not. I think not in this case), especially on the internet, without first stepping back and looking at themselves and trying to gain a little perspective.

I feel like I could've come up with a much more articulate response, but it's been a long, labor filled day, and I'm tired. Oh well, haha.

 

[basin79]

I never got the sense that the post was about getting satisfaction from watching a live mouse being eaten. My reply is that it was a brutal scenario. Not cruel nor insensitive but brutal as nature can be brutal. A mammal
being eaten alive by a myriapod is indeed startling but it occurs in the wild I'm sure. Perhaps the mention of 'vertebrae sticking out' gave credence to those that think you were perhaps glorifying the event. Feed your centipedes whatever you want is my opinion just be prepared for backlash if you post it. That's just reality. For the record, I love meat.

But there's absolutely nothing natural about keeping a centipede in captivity. True a pede will more than likely take down vertebrates much bigger than a mouse fuzzy in the wild. But they themselves are taken down by birds. As pede keepers we obviously don't put predators in with our pedes to keep up the "natural" pretense.

I don't, won't and never will object to offering a pede vertebrates. However being that this isn't nature and we do have an option the vertebrates should be dead before being subjected to an incredibly painful death.

 

[Nephila Edulis]

Wouldn't feed a live mouse to a centipede (even though a centipede would probably enjoy a meal like that), too slow of a death. But centipedes will take freshly dead animals as long a they've only been dead for a few minutes. I wouldn't consider feeding live vertebrates unless it was necessary.

 

[basin79]

Wouldn't feed a live mouse to a centipede (even though a centipede would probably enjoy a meal like that), too slow of a death. But centipedes will take freshly dead animals as long a they've only been dead for a few minutes. I wouldn't consider feeding live vertebrates unless it was necessary.

A pede will accept a f/t meal. I fed one of mine a chick, sub adult rat and a large fish to which it attacked and ate. Obviously it didn't eat all of the meals but they where going to be wasted anyway.

 

[Staehilomyces]

Here's where I come out. Yes, brutal suffering occurs in nature all the time. Lions kill zebras, sharks kill seals, and parasites devour their hosts inside out. But that's out in nature. That's nothing to do with us, and we can't control it. But when it comes to pets, that's a different story. Centipedes are predators, there's no arguing with that. There's no controlling that. However, what we can control is the amount that their prey has to suffer, and as moral human beings, I believe we should minimise that wherever possible. I must say, I love that we can actually maturely discuss hot topics on here. This is by far the least judgemental internet database I've been on, where people are willing to accept new information about such misunderstood creatures. As for the rest of the internet...let's just say, reading some of the comments that shallow-minded people post on videos of centipedes and other inverts truly hurts my heart (yet also makes me laugh at their universally poor grammar).

 

[Anoplogaster]

Well, you asked for it by posting this.... lol!

One thing I've learned about online forums is that you are posting to a VERY diverse crowd. Now, whatever you do with your animals is totally up to you. But if you snap photos of it and post it before a crowd of hundreds, be prepared for strong opinions. Best to be extra sensitive with these sorts of things

For the record, I own an adult Argus Monitor. I feed (and have only ever fed) frozen thawed mice. You'll find that in the community of monitor owners, only a very small portion of them ever feed live, simply because it's not necessary (and kind of a pain in the a** when you think about just how MUCH a monitor will eat). Mostly out of convenience, it's just way easier to buy a bag of 50 frozen mice and stick it in the freezer next to my chimichangas Problem is the few people who DO feed live always end up on youtube, which creates this image that reptile owners are generally mean, sadistic people. That's not an image I want to support.

If you MUST feed live, then do it. I've never raised centipedes, so I can't make any assumptions in regards to the benefits of it. But honestly, is the behavior actually that interesting? I mean, you already know what you're going to see. There's nothing new or novel about the situation.

Ugh.... I'm going to regret posting on this thread if I don't unfollow it! See you all on the other threads

 

[InvertsandOi]

Does anyone know how the frozen mice are killed?

 

[basin79]

Gassed.

 

[Scolopendra Kendrick]

Just going to repeat a few things. As I said earlier this was the FIRST time I have ever fed any of my centipedes a live mouse. That's why I put it up here. I was documenting something that I have never done.

I see the ethical problems behind this. I didn't get pleasure out of throwing a live mouse in the enclosure but I did find it amazing to see this happen because I sat there for hours waiting for my pede to surface and take it down. I see how the "haha" in the caption of the photos can seem a little inhuman but I mean, I had never experienced this and it was honestly jaw dropping. I didn't mean for it to come out as some joking response of the mouses vertebrae popping out. I was just surprised because I didn't see it until after taking the photos. I apologize.

Addressing the people who say "expect a response like this when posting something of this nature".... All I have to say is, I can handle the heat. If anything this thread has sparked deep intellectual heated conversation which is what I find to be most interesting type on this site.

I have already learned a lot from the responses and everyone's opinion helps shape mine as well. I'm just glad we can all keep our temperament down enough to engage in actual conversation. Even though many of you probably think I'm like Syd from Toy Story, I'm not I love these animals and don't get a kick out watching a mouse be torn up. So thanks for not ripping me apart too much.


I do enjoy keeping these amazing creatures because there is so much unknown about them. They are significantly under studied and that's why they interest me so much. To all of the people saying that there is no benefit to feeding vertebrates to them please make your work cited because all I know is what I see. I've kept many centipedes while experimenting with different diets and I have great results with this dehaani and others like it previously. All I can say is calcium powder or bones that are pretty much calcium? (Not saying one is better so don't yell at me. Just stubborn opinions of mine)

In addition as I said earlier I normally use frozen thawed mice and only for this pede. All of my other pedes are only insectivores with maybe a frozen thawed pinky every BLUE BLUE moon.

As I said earlier too... there is NO problem only feeding your centipedes insects only. I have many on a only insect diet. They are just fine in that diet. All I was saying is that if you could have a larger specimen while at the same time keeping it healthy, then boom throw in some mice (f/t)

Also, I am not an expert. I am learning everyday and a lot from the people I interact with on here. I am open to accepting new ideas ecpecially if there is significant data behind it.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

I'm impressed that you put so much thought, and even research, into this. I guess I just come at it from a different point of view. Not to get all melodramatic, but pain and suffering are an inescapable part of life. Always have been, and always will be. That's not necessarily a bad thing, though. If survival wasn't a struggle, then life on our planet wouldn't be as wonderfully diverse as it is. Now, I fully recognize that that's a much more convenient opinion to have when you're sitting comfortably at the top of the food chain, and you're not the one being paralyzed with venom and (arguably) eaten alive. I get that. And there's no way I would have such a nonchalant attitude toward pain and suffering if we were talking about someone I love, or any child for that matter. I guess I'm a hypocrite. But who isn't? At least I can admit that.

Which brings me back to why I originally commented on this thread. We all do things every day that are incredibly destructive to the natural world around us. If you eat factory farmed meat, those animals are treated in a way that, IMO, is WAY more immoral than allowing a scolopendra to be a scolopendra by killing and eating a mouse. I guess my problem is that people are so quick to pass judgement on someone else (whether warranted or not. I think not in this case), especially on the internet, without first stepping back and looking at themselves and trying to gain a little perspective.

I feel like I could've come up with a much more articulate response, but it's been a long, labor filled day, and I'm tired. Oh well, haha.

While in life almost all of us sooner or later would fall in that, I don't think you are hypocrite at all. IMO on those issues a perfect hypocrite will be someone that views, for instance, a cricket or roach life less important than a mouse one. All (animals) life are importants, no matter how much differents, at 360°, those animals and their 'universe' is.

Or someone that, in his/her full PETA 'vegans united save the world' mandatory mental health care rapture would force a lion to become vegetarian, lol, or something like that, nonsense :-s

Another thing I'd love to say is that I've never owned a snake. The reason is, here in Italy they banned the keeping of venomous snakes when I was a children (and I'm 38, now, go figure) and frankly, I'm not interested a bit into those that you can legally own here, such Pythons, Boa etc but rest assured, if I would one, I would feed them live mouse no matter, without issues. This because a snake can't eat the other 'stuff', like crickets, worms or else.

What I don't like too much are two issues (not directed to people here, uh):

1) People mentioning always "the wild" for justify that. Sure, I do know just like everyone else that, but here we are in captivity, not in the wild. In the wild "you" need to eat everything you can overpower, because the rule is live another day in a world where the predator can become a prey as well in no time.

2) That myth behind the fact that mouse and else provide something better than well hydrated crickets and roaches to arachnids/centipedes... c'mon now. The only differences are in "weight", for that, sure, after a mouse the 'belly' will be pretty fed for more time, but that's all u_u

As I've said, I'm not judging no one... I stand for Peace & Love but only in the Manson Family home assault style

 

[InvertsandOi]

To those who have instagram check out chrisweeets posts. He is one of the best keepers I know of. He usually always feeds live and has beautiful specimens that are super healthy.

I'm not finding chrisweeets on Instagram.

 

[InvertsandOi]

@Scolopendra Kendrick found him. It's chrisweeet. You forgot an apostrophe, haha

 

[basin79]

Like feeding live vertebrates makes a difference to a pedes health and wellbeing.

 

[kevinlowl]

Feed invertebrates - nobody cares
Feed vertebrates - huge outrage

Hypocritical vertebraecist are the worst
Feed your pets vegetables
I stand with my fellow spineless living beings

 

[Nephila Edulis]

People think there's no difference between a vertebrate and invertebrate, some think there is a difference between the two. There is a difference between feeding a live fuzzy to a pede and a snake, a venomous snake may kill the mouse in a couple seconds, a pede might take a minute to. Big I still don't think anybody should be attacked for feeding a fuzzy to a pede

 

[RTTB]

Cricket vs Mouse? Which life matters more? I wouldn't feel bad or give it much thought for accidentally stepping on a cricket but I would feel bad accidentally stepping on a mouse. Mark me down as a hypocrite. Maybe karma will get me in the next life and I'll come back as a cricket.

 

[Chris LXXIX]

Maybe karma will get me in the next life and I'll come back as a cricket.

Yes but a cricket driving the armored a la "Mad Max" cricket-mobile :-s

"Behold! I will have now my revenge on those venomous enclosures!"

 

[Staehilomyces]

Cricket vs Mouse? Which life matters more? I wouldn't feel bad or give it much thought for accidentally stepping on a cricket but I would feel bad accidentally stepping on a mouse. Mark me down as a hypocrite. Maybe karma will get me in the next life and I'll come back as a cricket.

That still isn't anything to do with one animal being worth more than another. We just find it harder to relate to an animals that is so much smaller than us, and can't really express pain.