Replacement hemolymph

[Aubrey Sidwell]

I read the same thing in the Tarantula Keepers Guide. I also read where some hemolymph was on purposely removed from a G. rosea and then was watched for adverse reaction. The loss of pressure caused some issues with normal funtions. It's like hydraulic pressure and there needs to be a certain amount in order for proper utilization. They then injected Ringers solution and the tarantula regained normal functions. The typical amount added is said to be up to 6% of the tarantulas weight and contrary to belief it was injected into the abdomen just making sure not to pierce the heart.

 

[Drachenjager]

I've never successfully use it, but we make and use variants of it constantly in the lab here.

It's basically salt water - made to the right pH. It's not hard to make if you have access to some basic chemicals (like salt) although getting it sterile can be difficult. Pressure cooking it (primitive autoclave) or filter sterilization might be the easiest way to go. I'm happy to hook a few people up with filter sterilization units if they need them.

what the heck is a filter sterilization unit? I never heard of that.

 

[DrAce]

what the heck is a filter sterilization unit? I never heard of that.

Pass a fluid through a filter small enough, and bacteria can't get through... So, grab a syringe (no needle), and a sterile filter, and plunge away. It works a charm, and is much easier on heat sensitive materials.

 

[dtknow]

What about injected between the membranes of a leg near to the base? This could then be covered with cornstarch or talcum powder. Should things go wrong the leg could be dropped by the T.

 

[sparular]

I've actually injected a T with insect cell culture medium (I can't remember now whether it was Ringer's or Grace's) but the tarantula was probably already dead and, unsurprisingly, did not come back to life. It was an A. versicolor sling that refused to come out its web tube (even for water I later realized). When I checked on it it was limp but didn't smell bad. I dabbed water on the mouth and put it in an ICU but that didn't help. So I brought home some insect medium from lab and injected it with a tuberculin syringe at a 45 degree angle between the lateral and dorsal aspects of the abdomen. I put in enough to make the abdomen look less shriveled but far from full (I estimate 200 ul). The site of injection didn't leak more than a tiny drop, probably b/c the abdomen was already shriveled and not at high pressure. I imagine that super glue would work to seal an abdominal injection as the glue molecule (cyanoacrylate) requires water to polymerize so probably won't be inhibited by lots of water. My guy didn't make it but it might work for a more acute loss of hemolymph (like an injury as opposed to dehydration).

 

[wedge07]

Piercing the heart would be a bad idea. This is a muscle that does not regenerate through a molt, thus that new hole would be there permanently. Since Ts have an open circulatory system injection in opisthosoma away from any vital organs would be the best way to go about it and then seal it up with liquid bandaide.

 

[Craig]

The tarantula bible (tarantula keepers guide by Schultz and Schultz) lists a solution that would work well for t's. I do not think that regular ringers especially LRS would work well with a tarantula's circulatory system.

I'm going to look up the answer tomorrow at work.

It would be interesting to experiment with this....

I will post what info I find.

 

[DrAce]

Piecing the heart would be a bad idea. This is a muscle that does not regenerate through a molt, thus that new hole would be there permanently. Since Ts have an open circulatory system injection in opisthosoma away from any vital organs would be the best way to go about it and then seal it up with liquid bandaide.

There is absolutely no reason to think that a puncture hole would sit in the heart permanently. If I puncture your heart, there won't be a permanent hole (assuming it's with a small needle). You don't moult either.

 

[wedge07]

There is absolutely no reason to think that a puncture hole would sit in the heart permanently. If I puncture your heart, there won't be a permanent hole (assuming it's with a small needle). You don't moult either.

This is true but Ts don't regenerate tissue the way that we do. Are they capable of healing like us or is a molt their only regeneration process? Is there any reason to think that the hole will close up? Sorry my curiosity is endless.

 

[Aubrey Sidwell]

There is absolutely no reason to think that a puncture hole would sit in the heart permanently. If I puncture your heart, there won't be a permanent hole (assuming it's with a small needle). You don't moult either.

This is true but Ts don't regenerate tissue the way that we do. Are they capable of healing like us or is a molt their only regeneration process? Is there any reason to think that the hole will close up? Sorry my curiosity is endless.

Regarding the above conversation:

I'm not exactly sure where anyone got the idea that piercing the heart is a good idea. It is in fact the exact opposite. If you take what we consider a small needle and pierce a human heart the chances of that being fatal exist depending on where it goes but the actual chance that death will occur is probably minimal. Now take a needle that you think is small and compare it to the size of a tarantula heart. Now you go from miniature hole in a big heart to a huge hole that might be just as big as the heart. The abdomen has been said to be the best place to administer a shot being very careful to stay away from the heart. The reason legs might not be a good place is because of autotomy. The tarantula might choose to sever it's leg using this process if it feels the need which might happen due to a surge in pressure of the appendage from an injection. This would only serve to worsen an already ill spider into becoming worse off than it already was.

With all that being said if anyone is feeling lucky enough to risk the life of a tarantula by impaling it's heart with a needale to see if it survives go ahead and let me know how long it lived. (Kidding by the way)

What bothers me is all the technology we have available, and knowing that the hobby is a multi-million dollar industry of keeping and breeding tarantulas, that there is very little being done from a scientific standpoint to determine causes for what some people refer to as diskinetic syndrome, nematode infestations, mites etc. and how to treat for these problems. Sure, if my G. rosea sling died from something like that I would move on but if I lost an adult female P. metallica or M. mesomelas or anything with a high value or rareness I would have wanted some options to try before throwing in the towel.

 

[Craig]

Sorry this is so late. I finally remembered to copy this at work.

PLEASE NEVER TRY ANY OF THE TECHNIQUES MENTIONED. THESE ARE FOR INFORMATIONAL PURPOSES ONLY. MESSING SOMETHING LIKE THIS UP COULD SERIOUSLY INJURE OR KILL A TARANTULA.

AGAIN PLEASE NEVER,EVER TRY THIS.

I have only tried drawing Hemolymph a couple of times. Again this is something that should be done by medical professionals or the equivalent only.

The second page photobucket keeps distorting when I upload it. Sorry if it is difficult to read. If you are interested I can send you the page via e-mail or something.

 

[Stan Schultz]

I was doing dome internet research about tarantulas and acquired diseases and came across more than one article about a replacement hemolymph for tarantulas called Ringers solution. ...

The second edition of The Tarantula Keeper's Guide (TKG2, www.ucalgary.ca/~schultz/g0.html and choose the appropriate link) has a lengthy discussion of Ringers solutions for tarantulas from page 159 through 161. The book is available for free checkout from most public libraries, or bring several dimes and photocopy those pages.

Oops! After posting this I read down the list and discovered that others had already mentioned it. BTW, the Ringer's solution section was dropped from TKG3 because it was deemed to have so little practical importance and we desperately needed the space for other, more important topics. This is a good example of why we urged enthusiasts to not throw away their old copies of TKG2.

 

[Stan Schultz]

I was doing dome internet research about tarantulas and acquired diseases and came across more than one article about a replacement hemolymph for tarantulas called Ringers solution. ...

Can you supply us with those links? Other sources?

Great post! Many thanks!

 

[Kirk]

Ringers is just a saline solution, it's not hemolymph. Hemolymph contains oxygen transport molecules (hemocyanin), which are not present in ringers. While injecting saline might raise the overall hemolymph pressure, assuming one knows what that might be, it might be necessary to know if the salt concentration in ringers is close to that in tarantulas, to minimize osmotic stress.

 

[Tapahtyn]

I hate to say this, but first of all, I'd be too afraid to attempt this manuever, and 2 I don't want to be that scientific in creating the solution or getting the stuff needed to do this. I would just do my best in the ICU and if I couldn't save the T, so be it. I would be totally sad but I don't ever want to take the risk of injecting my T

 

[Dave]

What about injected between the membranes of a leg near to the base? This could then be covered with cornstarch or talcum powder. Should things go wrong the leg could be dropped by the T.

I had the idea similar to this. But instead of injecting close to the coxa or in the femur, why not make the injection more towards the tibia or metatarsus and then remove that leg at the patella if too much fluid is leaking at the injection site? This keeps the puncture away from vital organs, delivers the fluid directly into the blood "stream", and provides a way to seal the hole. (better to lose a leg than a life)
The question that arises now is how to remove the leg? :?
Perhaps the T will remove it itself, dtknow.

 

[Dave]

I hate to say this, but first of all, I'd be too afraid to attempt this maneuver, and 2 I don't want to be that scientific in creating the solution or getting the stuff needed to do this. I would just do my best in the ICU and if I couldn't save the T, so be it. I would be totally sad but I don't ever want to take the risk of injecting my T

Fear cripples motivation.

 

[Kirk]

Fear cripples motivation.

Not when one acknowledges that they're neither qualified nor sufficiently informed to conduct medical procedures. It's not fear; just common sense.

 

[Jackuul]

Not when one acknowledges that they're neither qualified nor sufficiently informed to conduct medical procedures. It's not fear; just common sense.

If sufficiently interested should they not research and train to be able to conduct such procedures, and gain a valuable skill for emergency treatment of invertebrates?

Additionally, I would imagine that if you do inject into the leg, slowly, but it leaks a bit, a smudge of liquid band-aid would stop the leakage. If you did inject into the abdomen, it would be worth looking at the spider anatomy charts to know where it is possibly "safe" to do so, and again, a dab of superglue to seal it.

My question is... how did they anesthetize that rose in the book?

 

[Dave]

Not when one acknowledges that they're neither qualified nor sufficiently informed to conduct medical procedures. It's not fear; just common sense.

Take Thomas Edison. To most in his days, he seemed not to have a lot of common sense. Or formal training for that matter.
I'm all for becoming informed and trained in ANY endeavor in life. But we shouldn't use the lack of as an excuse to hold us back. It's easier to say "I can't" as apposed to "how can I". I guess I'm just thinking out loud.