Replacement hemolymph

[Aubrey Sidwell]

I was doing dome internet research about tarantulas and acquired diseases and came across more than one article about a replacement hemolymph for tarantulas called Ringers solution. I realize there are several types of solutions and that the name merely suggests fluid resuscitation after blood loss. Has anyone ever experimented with making it or even successfully using it?

 

[xhexdx]

That's a very interesting idea, and while I have no input, hopefully someone will.

 

[DrAce]

I've never successfully use it, but we make and use variants of it constantly in the lab here.

It's basically salt water - made to the right pH. It's not hard to make if you have access to some basic chemicals (like salt) although getting it sterile can be difficult. Pressure cooking it (primitive autoclave) or filter sterilization might be the easiest way to go. I'm happy to hook a few people up with filter sterilization units if they need them.

 

[Sathane]

Are we talking about adding hemolymph to a T that has lost some due to an injury?

Very interesting indeed...

 

[DrAce]

Are we talking about adding hemolymph to a T that has lost some due to an injury?

Very interesting indeed...

Essentially, in the same way as we add saline to a person who's bled a little too much.

 

[Dreamslave]

But in humans its injected directly in the bloodstream. Do you inject it anywhere in the t's body???

 

[equuskat]

But in humans its injected directly in the bloodstream. Do you inject it anywhere in the t's body???

This would be my thought. I'm not sure how it could be utilized, though the idea is a good one. I don't know of a site on a tarantula's body that would tolerate injection.

 

[inbntly]

But in humans its injected directly in the bloodstream. Do you inject it anywhere in the t's body???

Very good question, this Thread has peaked my interest. Wouldn't injecting the T with something be a bad thing, I Remember reading in the TTKG their blood doesn't clot. Also how much would you know to substitute?

Sorry not blood I meant Hemolymph.

 

[Travis K]

Very good question, this Thread has peaked my interest. Wouldn't injecting the T with something be a bad thing, I Remember reading in the TTKG their blood doesn't clot. Also how much would you know to substitute?

Sorry not blood I meant Hemolymph.

well you wouldn't need much and I would think the thinnest needle you could get. My thought would be directly into the dorsal abdomen, but that is basically into the Ts heart.

 

[inbntly]

well you wouldn't need much and I would think the thinnest needle you could get. My thought would be directly into the dorsal abdomen, but that is basically into the Ts heart.

Really? I was going to say into the abdomen, but then again I don't know if I would be able to go through with it if the situation ever came up. If you were injecting it near the heart how much room would you have to work with? before breaking through until you'd reach the heart?

 

[Travis K]

Really? I was going to say into the abdomen, but then again I don't know if I would be able to go through with it if the situation ever came up. If you were injecting it near the heart how much room would you have to work with? before breaking through until you'd reach the heart?

Did you read my post?

Anyway the heart would be the easiest area to inject directly into the "blood"(hemolymph) stream.

 

[Dreamslave]

Not sure it would be a good idea no matter the quantity of fluid injected, t's have a circulatory system too so i'm pretty sure it has to be injected in their ''hemolymph circulatory system''. Directly in the heart seems pretty risky business!!! Please feel free to correct me, i really want to know how it works!

 

[DrAce]

Not sure it would be a good idea no matter the quantity of fluid injected, t's have a circulatory system too so i'm pretty sure it has to be injected in their ''hemolymph circulatory system''. And please feel free to correct me, i really want to know how it works!

Spiders, as far as I understand, have an open circulatory system. That means their heart is basically a muscle-tube, which sucks up hemolymph at one end, and squirts it out the other. The organs basically bathe in the stuff.

In short - jab it in the cavity somewhere, and you've gotten it into the circulatory system.

I'd be inclined to inject them in the side, rather than the top. There's less 'heart' there... but then I'm not an arachnologist. Perhaps we should seek the advice of one who is.

 

[equuskat]

While you can probably stick a needle into the heart (or wherever) and inject fluid, you would then be presented with the problem of sealing a hole. While this is fairly simple in mammals and even reptiles, I am not sure that breeching the exoskeleton would be effective.

 

[BrynWilliams]

For those interested:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactated_Ringer%27s_solution

Reading about their circulatory system it seems direct puncture of the heart wouldn't be the best idea (although it is the easiest access point) as the haemolymph doesn't actually actively clot, it relies on plain old air drying to stop any leak. Thus piercing the heart which would contain the highest fluid pressure of the circulatory system would probably result in a wound that wouldn't ever dry as more and more fluid would be forced out every time the heart contracted.

Here's what wiki has to say on the matter, most pertitnent part highlighted:

Circulatory system

A tarantula’s blood is unique; an oxygen-transporting protein is present (the copper-based hemocyanin) but not enclosed in blood cells as are the erythrocytes of mammals. A tarantula’s blood is not true blood but rather a liquid called haemolymph, or hemolymph. There are at least four types of hemocytes, or hemolymph cells. The tarantula’s heart is a long slender tube that is located along the top of the opisthosoma. The heart is neurogenic as opposed to myogenic, so nerve cells instead of muscle cells initiate and coordinate the heart. The heart pumps hemolymph to all parts of the body through open passages often referred to as sinuses, and not through a circular system of blood vessels. If the exoskeleton were to be breached, loss of hemolymph could kill the tarantula unless the wound were small enough that the hemolymph could dry and close the wound.

 

[Dreamslave]

I don't know what you guys think, but hemolymph injection in t's seems more of a problem than a solution?!?!?

 

[DrAce]

I don't know what you guys think, but hemolymph injection in t's seems more of a problem than a solution?!?!?

Oh? You've tried it?

If a creature is literally hemorrhaging to death, is strikes me that attempting to replace that fluid is a valid response.

 

[Londoner]

This subject is actually covered in The Tarantula Keeper's Guide (I own the 2nd edition but it's bound to also be in the 3rd)...pages 159-161. It even lists a formula for tarantula Ringer's solution devised by Shartau and Leidescher in 1983. The authors state they had never had to use it and stress it should be used only in the gravest circumstances on an experimental basis. They suggest administering it with an injection into the abdomen, taking care not to pierce the heart (they recommend straight in, from the centre of the side). It doesn't seem easy for the majority of us to just mix up a batch. The authors urge readers to get help making it from a chemist, university lab or veterinarian. Hope this helps.

If anyone has the 3rd edition of The Guide, it'd be interesting to know if the info has been revised or updated.

 

[Eggy]

This subject is actually covered in The Tarantula Keeper's Guide (I own the 2nd edition but it's bound to also be in the 3rd)...pages 159-161. It even lists a formula for tarantula Ringer's solution devised by Shartau and Leidescher in 1983. The authors state they had never had to use it and stress it should be used only in the gravest circumstances on an experimental basis. They suggest administering it with an injection into the abdomen, taking care not to pierce the heart (they recommend straight in, from the centre of the side). It doesn't seem easy for the majority of us to just mix up a batch. The authors urge readers to get help making it from a chemist, university lab or veterinarian. Hope this helps.

If anyone has the 3rd edition of The Guide, it'd be interesting to know if the info has been revised or updated.

I have the 3rd edition, but it looks like they have skipped it in this. Cant find anything like the solution you are talking about.

 

[equuskat]

I think that it would be exceedingly difficult to add fluid into the abdomen without causing more damage. Not only would it be difficult to keep added fluid from squirting right back out the hole (or out of an already-patched wound), but there is a risk of rupturing the abdomen with the new fluids or weakening the abdomen so much by puncturing it again that it is predisposed to further damage.

It would be a dangerous experiment, but probably a worth effort on an animal that would otherwise die.