Possible list of poecilotheria communals

[Minty]

Ive been thinking about starting a pokie communal and I was just curious as too which ones are actually communal. I do know that Metallica and Regalis are the more well known and commonly kept ones, but I just wanna list of my options. Because if I can keep 10 ornata’s in one enclosure, I don’t wanna miss that opportunity!

Don't do it, unless you want to end up with one very fat pokie.

 

[Liquifin]

I said ornata as a joke lol. Even if they was I’d wouldn’t doubt that they would get along.

I got the joke, but people were giving themselves the idea while reading it.

Gotta say, there are many rumors of true communal T.'s such as the P. sp. arana pollito and many other T.'s such as the M. balfouri. But when people ask for the research papers, none were brought forth on the table. So in general, while some people may claim that they observed communal T.'s in the wild. There is no actual valid/researched studies of them being communal. So most people in conclusion argues that there is no true communal in the wild, since no actual research paper/info is brought forth and shown. Observations in the wild alone is not valid by itself and research is important as part of the process of knowing.

 

[Minty]

I got the joke, but people were giving themselves the idea while reading it.

Gotta say, there are many rumors of true communal T.'s such as the P. sp. arana pollito and many other T.'s such as the M. balfouri. But when people ask for the research papers, none were brought forth on the table. So in general, while some people may claim that they observed communal T.'s in the wild. There is no actual valid/researched studies of them being communal. So most people in conclusion argues that there is no true communal in the wild, since no actual research paper/info is brought forth and shown. Observations in the wild alone is not valid by itself and research is important as part of the process of knowing.

In addition to this, the word 'communal' is misleading, in terms of tarantulas, in my opinion.

Communal living is usually defined by shared resources, where M balfouri just tend to tolerate each other's presence (for a while at least).

 

[BoyFromLA]

To be honest, I would love to have a communal tarantulas set up for myself too. Who wouldn’t want to see, like out of five or six fuzzy Caribena versicolor, or like ten or eleven lovely Cyriocosmus elegans. However, that is just for my own sake, and to my eye pleasure only.

 

[cold blood]

Well how come everyone else is doing it?

Its what's known as a trend.....unfortunately, communals are probably the "trendiest" thing in this hobby right now.

Also, "everyone else is doing it" is not valid reason to do something...my Mom made that pretty clear as a child...lol. The monkey see, monkey do mentality is exactly how bad ideas get perpetuated and turn into fads...lol.


I get trying if you are a long time, very experienced keeper who's already breeding the species....but for your average hobbyist or new keeper, communals are a poor idea and not something to emulate.

It may work on rare occasion with a few pokies, and those rare occasions are always hailed as proof of communalism...but those cases are the exception, not the rule and not something one should just expect to happen and go well.

I breed pokies pretty regularly, and I keep slings of regalis communally sometimes, but never past 4th instar...that's when things get sketchy, even with regalis. Ornata BTW, will destroy each other right at 2i.

 

[Vanessa]

You aren't hearing about the failures... I absolutely guarantee it. You are just not hearing about them at all, which gives the impression that there are so many more successes than failures. That isn't accurate.
In the end, you're just paying for someone to get a very expensive meal and the only winner is the seller.

 

[Arthroverts]

Chicken Spider Journal:
http://arachnoboards.com/threads/arana-polita-chicken-spider-diary.173405/

@The Grym Reaper, I won't argue with you over what can and can't be kept communally, but I have seen it done successfully with adults, and I've heard it is more successful than pokie communals. Your are a lot more experienced than me though. I was just putting it out there.

Thanks,

Arthroverts

 

[Predacons5]

There is currently no evidence of tarantulas living communally in the wild as adults. Many tarantulas live communally only when they are young, not when they are adults. There is no visual or written documentation of it occurring in their natural habitats. They may live in relatively close proximity of each other, but it is not a communal situation. The reason why they are found in relatively close proximity to each other in the wild is most likely because they were sac mates. When they leave their nest, they end up not traveling very far from their origin of birth. This gives people the illusion of a communal existence when it really isn’t. There is evidence of cannibalism happening in the wild.

If tarantulas cannibalize each other, it is difficult to prevent because of how quick they are. Their pouncing reflexes are lightning fast. You may not even notice it happening until the deed is done and it is too late.

There is currently no such thing as a communal tarantula. Even M. balfouri is suspect.

Just because you see it being done and don’t hear about the failures, doesn’t necessarily mean it was a runaway success.

 

[Liquifin]

Chicken Spider Journal:
http://arachnoboards.com/threads/arana-polita-chicken-spider-diary.173405/

@The Grym Reaper, I won't argue with you over what can and can't be kept communally, but I have seen it done successfully with adults, and I've heard it is more successful than pokie communals. Your are a lot more experienced than me though. I was just putting it out there.

Thanks,

Arthroverts

That P. sp. Arana Pollito thread is highly controversial now. Many people claimed that the pictures were photoshopped and the guy who imported them didn't even know if they were actually P. antinous or the "ACTUAL" P. sp. Arana Pollito. His only claim was that "There is a difference in the social behaviors". No one actually knows if the "TRUE" P. sp. Arana Pollito is even in the actual hobby. Exporters can lie on where the specimens were caught.

This whole thread is confusing and concerning. Many people pinpointed that it looks to be P. antinous, but who knows what was collected. The biggest issue is that it was collected in Iquitos. That's where the P. antinous are, so now looking back at it, no one actually knows what was collected not even the exporter or importer.

 

[cold blood]

There is currently no evidence of tarantulas living communally in the wild as adults. Many tarantulas live communally only when they are young, not when they are adults. There is no visual or written documentation of it occurring in their natural habitats. They may live in relatively close proximity of each other, but it is not a communal situation. The reason why they are found in relatively close proximity to each other in the wild is most likely because they were sac mates. When they leave their nest, they end up not traveling very far from their origin of birth. This gives people the illusion of a communal existence when it really isn’t. There is evidence of cannibalism happening in the wild.

If tarantulas cannibalize each other, it is difficult to prevent because of how quick they are. Their pouncing reflexes are lightning fast. You may not even notice it happening until the deed is done and it is too late.

There is currently no such thing as a communal tarantula. Even M. balfouri is suspect.

Just because you see it being done and don’t hear about the failures, doesn’t necessarily mean it was a runaway success.

Also communals can be hard to keep track of....ya know, spiders are super good at hiding, so its not always easy to even know when cannibalism has taken place as they could be munched or could be just hiding and it's not something one can just look in and know for sure which it is.... as a result you may not realize your communal has gone bad until it's gone catastrophically bad.

Just one or two missing and you may never realize you had cannibalism.

 

[Arthroverts]

(@AbraxasComplex). I won't address the controversy, as that is more than I know. However, I have discussed invertebrate keeping with him and he has proved to be very helpful and knowledgable, and I know some members on here will attest to his honesty (@velvetundergrowth), at least selling-wise.
I leave the rest to the experts.

Thanks,

Arthroverts

 

[Vanessa]

In groups of truly social animals, the family/group dynamic is constantly changing. Males leave, males from other groups join, members branch off and start their own groups. They aren't this static group that spends it's entire life together without this fluctuation constantly taking place. Even in social animals there have been more than enough scenarios where a small group, who have been forced to live together over a long period, got along extremely poorly - even resulting in death.
What we're doing in captivity is not going to ever replicate what might take place in the wild if any of these species live together in a social group anyway. All that is being done is that multiple sac mates are being kept together. That is not in any way replicating what would ever take place in a truly social group in the wild anyway.

 

[Wesley Barnum]

I just wanna say that I’m amazed at what I’ve done here. I hit the most controversial topic without realizing, and got everyone here debating on if communal are actually communal. I honestly didn’t expect it lol. Oh well, at least when people google trying to get info they’ll find this thread. So in the end I did do good! But the ones that are “communal” will do. Plus poecilotheria is already a beautiful genus. It doesn’t need to be a communal in order to make it better. I feel like what draws me into wanting a communal setup is just seeing how my balfouri’s act, hunting and eating together ect. Thank you to everyone here. Especially on correcting what could’ve been, not only a blood bath, but also a financial crisis.

 

[AbraxasComplex]

@Liquifin, first, as far as I know, he is a she with the Chicken Spiders (@AbraxasComplex). I won't address the controversy, as that is more than I know. However, I have discussed invertebrate keeping with her and she has proved to be very helpful and knowledgable, and I know some members on here will attest to her honesty (@velvetundergrowth), at least selling-wise.
I leave the rest to the experts.

Thanks,

Arthroverts

I actually am a guy. Haha

But in the last twenty years my name has been appropriated by blonde girls in the US and Canada. So I can see where some confusion comes from.

As for the Pamphobeteus sp. I did have, it is possible the exporter lied about where he collected them. Many exporters and their collectors are protective of the sites they go to. The permits were legit, but his methods may not have been. So we will not quite know which species it was for sure. I did send a group to a researcher in Germany to confirm taxonomy and never heard back (he had described and named other species).

The tarantulas themselves were quite communal at all ages and when offered multiple burrows in large containers they congregated together in tight piles. They were also collected from two burrows which the exporter photographed before hand. And believe me, I wish I had decent Photoshop skills for creative purposes, but the only photo editing software I've ever used was MSpaint.

I was also quite choked when the 3 sacs I ended up with didn't hatch so I couldn't continue with documenting the rearing of young from the start (the initial import had multiple generations/different ages together).

Over all it was an experiment that I believe was a success based on their social behaviour and compatibility as I ended up with long-term communal housing and only a couple premature losses that did not die from any noticable physical damage. No cannibalism was witnessed even when mature males were sharing the burrow with the females for extended periods (also resting in clusters). 90+% of the juveniles molted out as male (which could have led to why there was only a two to three subadult and adult females in each insitu burrow when collected) and died before I could make more breeding attempts. The supplier could no longer obtain permits and I was stuck with 3 adult females with no males to pair with.

So the experiment ended, and until a proper research team returns to Peru, locates active burrows, and documents it we will only have the original expedition blog with photos and videos that inspired me, my account on here, and potential future accounts of those who manage to get their hands on legitimate chicken spiders.

But overall of all the species I have kept personally in social settings (including my Neoholothele incei colony that has run for nearly 15 years and continues to do so at someone else's home) I would say only the chicken spider has been truly communal. The rest had extended maternal care and shared their living space in a manner that was more about territorial tolerance rather than a communal colony.

I did have Monocentropus balfouri, but did not keep the offspring long enough to set up any kind of experiment.I have seen other posts that documented promising results, but cannot speak on how valid their potential communal status is.

 

[Arthroverts]

@AbraxasComplex, my sincere apologies. Your name is usually used in the feminine way, so I assumed, wrongly, that you were a gal. Again, my sincere apologies.

Thanks,

Arthroverts

 

[AbraxasComplex]

@AbraxasComplex, my sincere apologies. Your name is usually used in the feminine way, so I assumed, wrongly, that you were a gal. Again, my sincere apologies.

Thanks,

Arthroverts

No harm. It happens with clients and co-workers at other locations all the time. I'm used to it. Haha

 

[Liquifin]

@AbraxasComplex I'm not doubting you but I am a bit skeptical of the Pamphobeteus sp. Arana Pollito you had. While they were communal, you stated they were collected from Iquitos? If that's the case then wouldn't that mean you had gotten the Pamphobeteus cf. antinous (some people call it the true P. antinous) and not the Pamphobeteus sp. Arana Pollito? From what I can research from some time back, I read that the range distribution is only within the Madre de Dios area of Peru. While it is possible that there range could be a bit further distributed in population, I'm still not confident if I would call what you had imported to be the True Pamphobeteus sp. Arana Pollito despite the communal behaviors. I do find your communal very interesting, but I still don't call what you have the True P. sp. Arana Pollito. For some reason, something seems off to where I just don't think they're the real deal. I don't have anything against you, but I really want to give my honest thoughts as a fellow hobbyist.

Also just a question. Do you plan on importing any of the True P. sp. Arana Pollito from the Madre De Dios area?? It would be interesting to see it happen.

 

[AbraxasComplex]

@AbraxasComplex I'm not doubting you but I am a bit skeptical of the Pamphobeteus sp. Arana Pollito you had. While they were communal, you stated they were collected from Iquitos? If that's the case then wouldn't that mean you had gotten the Pamphobeteus cf. antinous (some people call it the true P. antinous) and not the Pamphobeteus sp. Arana Pollito? From what I can research from some time back, I read that the range distribution is only within the Madre de Dios area of Peru. While it is possible that there range could be a bit further distributed in population, I'm still not confident if I would call what you had imported to be the True Pamphobeteus sp. Arana Pollito despite the communal behaviors. I do find your communal very interesting, but I still don't call what you have the True P. sp. Arana Pollito. For some reason, something seems off to where I just don't think they're the real deal. I don't have anything against you, but I really want to give my honest thoughts as a fellow hobbyist.

Also just a question. Do you plan on importing any of the True P. sp. Arana Pollito from the Madre De Dios area?? It would be interesting to see it happen.

Originally I ordered the chicken spider and for sure received P.antinous. I was upset with him and refused to do another big order until he got me pictures and such and collected groups from burrows. He said he had to travel a bit further out to find those and I had to pay more to account for travel costs. How far I do not know, so honestly I suspect he may have made his way to Madres de Dios. I paid travel costs and collection fees first and then the rest once he had sent me the photos of them insitu and in containers.

I lost contact with him after he failed to get collection/export permits a couple years in a row. I found another supplier, but the minimum order was $5000US and they could not collect in Madres de Dios (protected area).

 

[Liquifin]

Originally I ordered the chicken spider and for sure received P.antinous. I was upset with him and refused to do another big order until he got me pictures and such and collected groups from burrows. He said he had to travel a bit further out to find those and I had to pay more to account for travel costs. How far I do not know, so honestly I suspect he may have made his way to Madres de Dios. I paid travel costs and collection fees first and then the rest once he had sent me the photos of them insitu and in containers.

I lost contact with him after he failed to get collection/export permits a couple years in a row. I found another supplier, but the minimum order was $5000US and they could not collect in Madres de Dios (protected area).

Does that mean that there's no way to collect them legally if they're within protected areas? Wouldn't that mean acquiring them is not possible unless you can find them outside within short range of the Madres de Dios area??

 

[AbraxasComplex]

Does that mean that there's no way to collect them legally if they're within protected areas? Wouldn't that mean acquiring them is not possible unless you can find them outside within short range of the Madres de Dios area??

Only outside the area or if they had a special collection permit (if that's possible).