Molt Humidity myth or necessity?

[CedrikG]

Cirith I think you will agree with me that this conversation is going no where ... lets stop this here.

 

[TheDarkFinder]

WOW has it been 4 months already? Where does the time go?

As for the humidity issue, Does it really matter? Here is a hint, don't worry about it. If you have a tarantula and it dies buy another. If it gets stuck in a molt buy another. Who cares what soso says,

So if you need a desert species, then you already know the answer, all of them are desert species. Do not worry about it. It will go away.

If you want to worry about humidity then there is one post about every 4 months, opinions have not changed. Everyone will says what they want. Why? Because they can.

Every one runs around the same tree, Screaming the same thing. Accusing the same issue, and generally defending anything they do in the most active way possible.

But here we go

http://www.americanarachnology.org/JoA_free/JoA_v27_n3/arac_27_03_0692.pdf
Read about half way down 693. Even though the experment is for artifical food, It is revealing that all of the hunting spiders died within 30 days at 45% humidity but 82.5% lived past 30 days when humidity was 80%. I know it is not tarantulas blah, blah, blah.

Blood and fluid balance of the common tarantula, Dugesiella hentzi Doris M. Stewart1 and Arthur W. Martin1
Really a good read, does not answer any questions but a really good read. Do you know that a tarantula could loss up to 20% of it body weight in one week if they are not given water, higher humidity less evaporation. Really cool stuff. So much for the "adults do not desiccate argument" and this is on a "desert species."

THE EFFECTS OF SIZE, SEX, AND REPRODUCTIVE CONDITION ON THERMAL AND DESICCATION STRESS IN A RIPARIAN SPIDER Jill DeVito, Daniel R. Formanowicz Jr.
BLAH BLAH BLAH

The Evaporation of Water from Spiders M. E. DAVIES 1 and E. B. EDNEY 1
BLAH BLAH BLAH

and on and on and on and on and on and on and on.

The point is that if you hydrate your spiders enough then you are fine.

IF they start to lose more water then they can drank, IE they are injuried, you forget, or they are in post molt, or THEY NATURALLY COME FROM A HUMIDITY ENVIRONMENT AND HAVE NOT EVOLVED THE PROPER ADAPTATIONS TO SURVIVE YOUR HOUSE then you have a problem.

So continue, I do not care. It works both ways, if you manage to keep your spiders from dying then you can breed and prices go down and we all enjoy the hobby for cheaper. If they die you buy more, and you keep the breeder, the people the sale in business and we are still happy.

IF you want to argue the articles, go ahead I probabltiy will not come back here so just do not direct them at me, you will not get a response. If you must argue then go ahead it is good therapy.


Now I got far better thing to do, like pull the regals sack.

 

[edesign]

*sniffs the air* someone reeks of pompousness in here... with any luck someone will poop on the floor and sweeten the air up

 

[cheetah13mo]

*sniffs the air* someone reeks of pompousness in here... with any luck someone will poop on the floor and sweeten the air up

LOL....priceless :clap:

 

[lucanidae]

I read through all the papers and links that are posted above, not a single one helps in answering the question. If you want some ok reading, go for it, but if you are interested in this particular topic.....you won't be satisfied.

 

[Windchaser]

I've had 8 eggsacs of young in incubators in the past year. Twice, the young tried to molt to third instar when the paper towel they were on was mostly dry, and both times I lost over 50% to stuck molts, despite a large amount of water 6 inches under the towles. The other 6 times I had a better handle on when the young were going to molt, the paper towel was moist, and molting went fine.

On top of this, two days ago I had a bunch of avic slings start molting. All of the ones that molted that day were perfect. Unfortunatley, the incubator leaked all the water out and the next day slings from the exact same sac attempted to molt on much dryer towling. These slings did not fair nearly as well as their siblings the day before in a moister environment.

For slings, it is obvious that ambient moisture is important. Making blanket statements about anything is usually incorrect, and saying ambient moisture/humidity plays no role in any part of Theraphosid molting is wrong.

This dosen't mean that animals won't succesfully molt in dry conditions, but some bad molts can be directly attributed to the molt skin drying to quickly because their wasn't enough ambient humidity/moisture and the skin dried before the animal freed itself.

I don't doubt your observations but I am not sure I agree completely with your conclusions. I would suggest that the slings that died off on dry paper towels were not properly hydrated in the first place. The slings can actually draw water out of the paper towel, as they can draw water out of a substrate. Being on a dry paper towel they were not able to drink any water and therefore were dehydrated. In addition, they will desiccate more easily in dry conditions but had they a source of water to drink from I believe they would have done better. A dehydrated tarantula will still have problems molting whether the ambient humidity is higher or not. Higher ambient humidity levels don't provide a tarantula with the proper internal fluids necessary for a successful molt. I will agree that a tarantula can become dehydrated faster in a drier environment than in a more humid one, but if a source of water is available for it to drink from it becomes a mute issue.

 

[cacoseraph]

Its not the only good way, its the best way.

not that i had any real respect for you before... but such an absolute statement tells me you have virtually no formal training or experience in real science. cheers

 

[lucanidae]

I don't doubt your observations but I am not sure I agree completely with your conclusions. I would suggest that the slings that died off on dry paper towels were not properly hydrated in the first place. The slings can actually draw water out of the paper towel, as they can draw water out of a substrate. Being on a dry paper towel they were not able to drink any water and therefore were dehydrated. In addition, they will desiccate more easily in dry conditions but had they a source of water to drink from I believe they would have done better. A dehydrated tarantula will still have problems molting whether the ambient humidity is higher or not. Higher ambient humidity levels don't provide a tarantula with the proper internal fluids necessary for a successful molt. I will agree that a tarantula can become dehydrated faster in a drier environment than in a more humid one, but if a source of water is available for it to drink from it becomes a mute issue.

I think you misunderstand. In nature, these slings would have been inclosed in an eggsac. They wouldn't have any substrate to drink water off of. Also, the paper towel was only dry the day of or possibly the day previous and the day of the molt, it had been kept moist otherwise, so they had plenty of time to absorb fluids from it. Either way, something tells me a second instar (mobile egg with legs) wouldn't be effiecent at drinking from any source of water, they have no reason to be able to. The molts don't appear to go bad because of any sort of lack of internal fluids, the abdomen at this stage is really plump full of juices, and I didn't see any difference or reduction in abdomen size previous to any of the bad molts.

If anything, we could assume that the eggsac helps to keep the ambient humidity higher, and makes molting easier. If it didn't, why would everyone be so concerned about keeping their incubators at the right humidity level?

 

[eman]

I don't doubt your observations but I am not sure I agree completely with your conclusions. I would suggest that the slings that died off on dry paper towels were not properly hydrated in the first place. The slings can actually draw water out of the paper towel, as they can draw water out of a substrate. Being on a dry paper towel they were not able to drink any water and therefore were dehydrated. In addition, they will desiccate more easily in dry conditions but had they a source of water to drink from I believe they would have done better. A dehydrated tarantula will still have problems molting whether the ambient humidity is higher or not. Higher ambient humidity levels don't provide a tarantula with the proper internal fluids necessary for a successful molt. I will agree that a tarantula can become dehydrated faster in a drier environment than in a more humid one, but if a source of water is available for it to drink from it becomes a mute issue.

Correct me if I’m wrong but lucanidae clearly stated that he experimented with the same egg sac:

“Then you have one paired 'test', where %100 (n of 41) percent did fine with moisture in the first group, and in the second group from the same sac (n of 72) had an almost %40 mortality rate; I'd say that would be statically significant support for slings molting requireing ambient humidity/moisture.”

So how could the nymphs be "dehydrated in the first place" when the other ones came out just fine? Conversely, how would they have re-hydrated? I have yet to see first instar nymphs "drink". By moistening the paper towel, you increase the humidity in their immediate environment so yes, they naturally re-hydrate. This is from being in close proximity to a humid source IMO.

Again, myself and many other hobbyists have seen noticeable and repeatable differences when ensuring proper RH (I'm not saying 80-100% humidity or sopping wet environments) - especially for smaller slings, juveniles and certain species that require higher humidity levels. This could simply mean keeping them on moist or relatively moist soil.

It's obvious that larger ts from most species are much more resistant to dehydration and experience seasonal changes in their native habitats (which means fluctuating humidity/temp levels). However, does that give us the right to simply ignore their native habitats and environmental requirements? It's like taking a polar bear and putting it in a nice sunny outdoor pen in Florida and saying, “he’s doing just fine”… OK, that one was a little far fetched but you get what I'm saying. It's a point of moral responsability towards the animals we own IMHO.

Another point that seems to be missed, considering that we are all throwing in our opinions and hearsay, it has been observed repeatedly that RH assists in the molt cycle considerably - whether is softens/loosens/expands the outer cuticle or simply conditions/predisposes the environment is anyone's guess. The experience of other hobbyists should not simply be dismissed as a "mute issue".

Last point, I recently read an interesting BTS article by Ray Gabriel on his breeding methods for T. blondi – he reported good success by keeping drier substrate and a higher RH… This is an interesting concept if anything and, while not very scientific, shows at least that RH does seem to affect egg / nymph hydration (proper development?). I can look up the BTS article No.

Cheers,

Emmanuel

 

[eman]

I think you misunderstand. In nature, these slings would have been inclosed in an eggsac. They wouldn't have any substrate to drink water off of. Also, the paper towel was only dry the day of or possibly the day previous and the day of the molt, it had been kept moist otherwise, so they had plenty of time to absorb fluids from it. Either way, something tells me a second instar (mobile egg with legs) wouldn't be effiecent at drinking from any source of water, they have no reason to be able to. The molts don't appear to go bad because of any sort of lack of internal fluids, the abdomen at this stage is really plump full of juices, and I didn't see any difference or reduction in abdomen size previous to any of the bad molts.

If anything, we could assume that the eggsac helps to keep the ambient humidity higher, and makes molting easier. If it didn't, why would everyone be so concerned about keeping their incubators at the right humidity level?

You beat me to it - LOL!