Molt Humidity myth or necessity?

[CedrikG]

Far to be a joke fellow

Hey Emmanuel, I think im going to buy a new dog, but as I dont like to collect <EDIT>, I think im going to put a ball of cotton in its ass.

Morals of this story, if you dont want to care perfectly of an animal, dont get any. Easy way does'nt = Best way.

Ohhhh my god, am I really getting into this debate ... im off folks

 

[Cirith Ungol]

As I said above, a plausible explanation would be that moisture would attack dryness from the outside makeing possible injuries and other difficulties go easier where it might not be able to be reached from the inside.

What kind injuries are you thinking of?

 

[Cirith Ungol]

Far to be a joke fellow

Hey Emmanuel, I think im going to buy a new dog, but as I dont like to collect ****, I think im going to put a ball of cotton in its ***. (Sorry for editing out those two words but I don't think everybody wants to know - CU)

Morals of this story, if you dont want to care perfectly of an animal, dont get any. Easy way does'nt = Best way.

Ohhhh my god, am I really getting into this debate ... im off folks

So you're the two guys deciding what's perfect care then? Darn, should have asked you before I joined the hobby.

Tell me, what, other than not keeping T's at all is ever gonna be perfect? The perfect environment is outside. The best you as a keeper can do is offer an environement that reduces the risks as much as plausible.

 

[lucanidae]

I've had 8 eggsacs of young in incubators in the past year. Twice, the young tried to molt to third instar when the paper towel they were on was mostly dry, and both times I lost over 50% to stuck molts, despite a large amount of water 6 inches under the towles. The other 6 times I had a better handle on when the young were going to molt, the paper towel was moist, and molting went fine.

On top of this, two days ago I had a bunch of avic slings start molting. All of the ones that molted that day were perfect. Unfortunatley, the incubator leaked all the water out and the next day slings from the exact same sac attempted to molt on much dryer towling. These slings did not fair nearly as well as their siblings the day before in a moister environment.

For slings, it is obvious that ambient moisture is important. Making blanket statements about anything is usually incorrect, and saying ambient moisture/humidity plays no role in any part of Theraphosid molting is wrong.

This dosen't mean that animals won't succesfully molt in dry conditions, but some bad molts can be directly attributed to the molt skin drying to quickly because their wasn't enough ambient humidity/moisture and the skin dried before the animal freed itself.

 

[eman]

Right half of page 151 in The Tarantula Keepers Guide (Schultz & Schultz, Barron's Educational Series, Inc.;1998) should be good enough support for what I/CM said.

I hope I don't get slapped for saying this but as much as I respect Mr. Schultz (I've met him in person and he is a very nice individual), in my books he is not more than an advanced hobbyist. He is no Rick West, Jean-Michel Verdez, Andrew Smith etc. There is much in his book that I don't care for.

I'm sure the methods he used worked well for him but that doesn't necessarily mean that they were adequate or proper for the ts.

Personally, I find Samuel D. Marshall's (who is an Arachnologist) book to be much more informative... just my opinion. For those who speak French, Jean-Michel Verdez's book is excellent - certainly one of the best.

If you really want some very interesting field data (quite pertinent to this thread IMO), get the Sklipkan Journals - you'll get plenty of temperature/humidity and environmental data...

Emmanuel

 

[CedrikG]

So as the perfect way is to keep them outside, what a good idea to keep them bone dry

Fortunatly, the other continent such as Europe understood that a long time ago

Reduce the risk as much as possible ? If you are'nt enough experienced to keep a humid environment clean and perfectly controled, its not really our problem ... But dont learn to new people that could have more skill then you, to keep them bone dry because its the only way you can keep them heh.

Now I understand why very experienced keeper with real success (those who keep more timr with their Ts then on the forum) are'nt loosing their time anymore on forums.

 

[eman]

I've had 8 eggsacs of young in incubators in the past year. Twice, the young tried to molt to third instar when the paper towel they were on was mostly dry, and both times I lost over 50% to stuck molts, despite a large amount of water 6 inches under the towles. The other 6 times I had a better handle on when the young were going to molt, the paper towel was moist, and molting went fine.

On top of this, two days ago I had a bunch of avic slings start molting. All of the ones that molted that day were perfect. Unfortunatley, the incubator leaked all the water out and the next day slings from the exact same sac attempted to molt on much dryer towling. These slings did not fair nearly as well as their siblings the day before in a moister environment.

For slings, it is obvious that ambient moisture is important. Making blanket statements about anything is usually incorrect, and saying ambient moisture/humidity plays no role in any part of Theraphosid molting is wrong.

This dosen't mean that animals won't succesfully molt in dry conditions, but some bad molts can be directly attributed to the molt skin drying to quickly because their wasn't enough ambient humidity/moisture and the skin dried before the animal freed itself.

I couldn't agree more. Thanks for sharing your experience with us.

Cheers,

Emmanuel

 

[eman]

Far to be a joke fellow

Hey Emmanuel, I think im going to buy a new dog, but as I dont like to collect <EDIT>, I think im going to put a ball of cotton in its ass.

Morals of this story, if you dont want to care perfectly of an animal, dont get any. Easy way does'nt = Best way.

Ohhhh my god, am I really getting into this debate ... im off folks

I think it translates better in French than it does in English... LOL!

Cheers

 

[lucanidae]

I couldn't agree more. Thanks for sharing your experience with us.

Cheers,

Emmanuel

Sure, and I was just thinking..... 6 eggsac in moist conditions..... times about 150 per sack is 900, with about a 95% success rate.

Two sacs in dry conditions.... at 150 is 300 with appx %50 loss....

Then you have one paired 'test', where %100 (n of 41) percent did fine with moisture in the first group, and in the second group from the same sac (n of 72) had an almost %40 mortality rate; I'd say that would be statically significant support for slings molting requireing ambient humidity/moisture.

 

[CedrikG]

I think it translates better in French than it does in English... LOL!

Cheers

Hahah so funny

Well, we do what we can with what we have heh ! :razz:

Some people speak well english, some people keep well their Ts ... heh

 

[cheetah13mo]

What kind injuries are you thinking of?

Lost limb or basically any kind. It just depends on how the injury heals. If there is a large clump of hardend blood at a joint, that can cause problems when moisture from within can't reach the whole injury. Added humidity would help make it more plyable from the outside.

 

[eman]

Sure, and I was just thinking..... 8 eggsac in moist conditions..... times about 150 per sac is 1200, with about a 95% success rate.

Two sacs in dry conditions.... at 150 is 300 with appx %50 loss....

Then you have one paired 'test', where %100 (n of 41) percent did fine with moisture in the first group, and in the second group from the same sac (n of 72) had an almost %40 mortality rate; I'd say that would be statically significant support for slings molting requireing ambient humidity/moisture.

Absolutely, very plausible indeed! It's funny you brought the whole egg sac info up because I've also had the exact same experience with P. regalis!

Again, thanks for sharing. It's nice to have someone else be able to corroborate the same input.

Cheers,

Emmanuel

 

[CedrikG]

Yes, thx both for all the info ... unfortunatly, it will enter in a ear and get out from the other on most of the people that keep bone dry

 

[Ando55]

Thanks for replies everyone, lots of info in the replies and I'm taking all into consideration. :clap:

 

[Cirith Ungol]

Lost limb or basically any kind. It just depends on how the injury heals. If there is a large clump of hardend blood at a joint, that can cause problems when moisture from within can't reach the whole injury. Added humidity would help make it more plyable from the outside.

That's a special case though thus, according to what you said, outside humidity wouldn't need to be there if no injury had occured prior to the moult. If there was some injury with crust, I'd rather try my luck with glycerin though, personally.

 

[cheetah13mo]

That's a special case though thus, according to what you said, outside humidity wouldn't need to be there if no injury had occured prior to the moult. If there was some injury with crust, I'd rather try my luck with glycerin though, personally.

True but what if something happened like a fall that you were unaware of. You wouldn't know to use the glycerin or up the humidity. Then you have a T that might loose a leg in the molt or get trapped in it's molt. I don't think it's worth takeing that chance. To be clear, I'm only referring to increased humidity for molting purposes.

 

[Cirith Ungol]

Reduce the risk as much as possible ? If you are'nt enough experienced to keep a humid environment clean and perfectly controled, its not really our problem ...

No it really isn't! Again, everybody who doesn't keep them as you do is unexperienced then?

But dont learn to new people that could have more skill then you, to keep them bone dry because its the only way you can keep them heh.

Now I understand why very experienced keeper with real success (those who keep more timr with their Ts then on the forum) are'nt loosing their time anymore on forums.

I have hardly an idea what experience the person I speak to has. Neither have you. Suggesting that your way of keeping T's is the only good way is just silly. Enough *experienced* keepers on this board have not only proven that T's can live and flourish in loads of different setups but also in bonedry ones (under the right circumstances). But then again, maybe they arn't very experienced, ey?

 

[Cirith Ungol]

True but what if something happened like a fall that you were unaware of. You wouldn't know to use the glycerin or up the humidity. Then you have a T that might loose a leg in the molt or get trapped in it's molt. I don't think it's worth takeing that chance. To be clear, I'm only referring to increased humidity for molting purposes.

Fair enough. It certainly doesn't hurt the T .
Again from my perspective - I've built my tanks so shallow that injury from falling is extremely unlikely to occur in the first place. But we are degressing...

 

[CedrikG]

I have hardly an idea what experience the person I speak to has. Neither have you. Suggesting that your way of keeping T's is the only good way is just silly.

Its not the only good way, its the best way.

Enough *experienced* keepers on this board have not only proven that T's can live and flourish in loads of different setups but also in bonedry ones (under the right circumstances)

of course they CAN survive in a bone dry environment.

But then again, maybe they arn't very experienced, ey?

Probably

You talk like if I was alone thinking this way, I would like you to send picture of your setup on any good European forum ( I talk of forum of people who breed very rare species here that require a lot of experience), you will get bashed out man.

 

[cheetah13mo]

@ Cirith Ungol

Most of my enclosures are setup to minimize possible injury but you never know. It's just a saftey precaution I like to take when I can. I'd like to not feel like I have to do that but I can only go by how I read my tarantulas body language. Very good discusion. Thanks.