Inbreeding?

[angelarachnid]

So where id the proof that there is inbreeding depression in parthanogenetic species?

You keep of refering to Stegodyphus lineatus, IS THIS A THERAPHOSID SPIDER?


I have asked if people will post the links to the proof in THERAPHOSID SPIDERS

no one has yet been able to do this,

Where is the proof that inbreeding is not a problem for theraphosid spiders??

Colonys, family groups, isolated colonys

I can use Theraphosid examples to indicate NO problems with inbreeding

No one as yet can show proof WITH Theraphosid examples.

Ray

 

[TheDarkFinder]

So where id the proof that there is inbreeding depression in parthanogenetic species?

You keep of refering to Stegodyphus lineatus, IS THIS A THERAPHOSID SPIDER?


I have asked if people will post the links to the proof in THERAPHOSID SPIDERS

no one has yet been able to do this,

Where is the proof that inbreeding is not a problem for theraphosid spiders??

Colonys, family groups, isolated colonys

I can use Theraphosid examples to indicate NO problems with inbreeding

No one as yet can show proof WITH Theraphosid examples.

Ray

You know how little information there is on theraphosid spiders.

I guess that is the only thing you have to hide behind, ignorance.

I guess you do not want to understand.

As for the Parthenogenesis(is there a parthengenic theraphosid?) you speak of, there is NO BREEDING, and therefore there is NO INBREEDING. :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: :wall: Get over it. man.

When you are ready to take about the possiblity of inbreeding, we will be waiting.
thedarkfinder

 

[angelarachnid]

I am really going to enjoy this reply

Just read your reference to Stegodyphus lineatus on this thread, which you are using as your main reference to INBREEDING PROBLEMS in Theraphosid spiders.

http://www.iee.uu.se/zooekol/pdf/articles/646.pdf

I will admit i have not read all of the paper in fact the title gives it away

THE TRANSITION TO SOCIAL INBRED MATING SYSTEMS IN SPIDERS: ROLE OF INBREEDING TOLERANCE IN A SUBSOCIAL PREDECESSOR.

Now then what part of:

TRANSITION TO SOCIAL INBRED

and

ROLE OF INBREEDING TOLERANCE

did you not understand:wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:

I read the abstract and came upon this:

Line 13 "Sibling matings had no effects on direct fitness traits such as fecundity.....

Last 3 lines of the paper:

Now what part of the following did YOU not get??? Maybe you are the one who should be standing on a stool;P ;P

"These results suggest a history of INBREEDING which may REDUCE the FREQUENCY of DELETRIOUS RECESSIVE ALLELES in the population and PROMOTE the evolution of INBREEDING TOLERANCE. It is likely that the LACK of inbreeding AVOIDANCE in subsocial predecessors has facilitated the transition to REGULAR INBREEDING SOCIAL SYSTEMS."

I would like to thank you for supplying me with MORE PROOF that there is no problems with inbreeding.

For future reference READ THE PAPERS YOU ARE USING TO SUPPORT YOUR "GUESSES"

I await your reply

Ray

 

[TheDarkFinder]

I am really going to enjoy this reply

Just read your reference to Stegodyphus lineatus on this thread, which you are using as your main reference to INBREEDING PROBLEMS in Theraphosid spiders.

http://www.iee.uu.se/zooekol/pdf/articles/646.pdf

I will admit i have not read all of the paper in fact the title gives it away

THE TRANSITION TO SOCIAL INBRED MATING SYSTEMS IN SPIDERS: ROLE OF INBREEDING TOLERANCE IN A SUBSOCIAL PREDECESSOR.

Now then what part of:

TRANSITION TO SOCIAL INBRED

and

ROLE OF INBREEDING TOLERANCE

did you not understand:wall: :wall: :wall: :wall:

I read the abstract and came upon this:

Line 13 "Sibling matings had no effects on direct fitness traits such as fecundity.....

Last 3 lines of the paper:

Now what part of the following did YOU not get??? Maybe you are the one who should be standing on a stool;P ;P

"These results suggest a history of INBREEDING which may REDUCE the FREQUENCY of DELETRIOUS RECESSIVE ALLELES in the population and PROMOTE the evolution of INBREEDING TOLERANCE. It is likely that the LACK of inbreeding AVOIDANCE in subsocial predecessors has facilitated the transition to REGULAR INBREEDING SOCIAL SYSTEMS."

I would like to thank you for supplying me with MORE PROOF that there is no problems with inbreeding.

For future reference READ THE PAPERS YOU ARE USING TO SUPPORT YOUR "GUESSES"

I await your reply

Ray

Read all of it. Hmmm a highly inbreed socal spider.

you said several post ago.

And remember inbreeding is not just the 30 years or so a species might have been kept in captivity, its all the thousands of years they have been living in these isolated populations.

Now then no one yet has posted any links to the scientific proof that inbreeding occurs in theraphosid spiders, so lets widen the range any inverts?

So that is what I did. Do you not remember what you write?

From page eleven:
-------------------------------------------------------
The decline in trait values as a result of full–sib matings
in S. lineatus were generally less than 10 %, with the
exception of juvenile body mass (21%) and growth rate
(38%).
-------------------------------------------------------

So in spider populations that are extremely inbreed populations, and have a solid gentic background that helps prevent inbreeding depression, we see that

21% of the Juvenile spiders show reduce body mass with comparied to outbreed Juvenile spiders. almost .5 mg of a 5 mg spider

31% of the juvenile spiders showed slower growth rates. It took almost 7 days longer to disperse. 7 out of 80 days.

According to you this should not happen. A inbreed spider is as strong and big as an outbreed spider.



body mass and growth are not considered direct fitness by this paper.
An remember it had to be 10% or more difference in order to qualitfiy.


I know, run behind your wall of "IT IS NOT TARANTULAS." Go ahead.

I can not debate this if you do not wish to do the work.

 

[angelarachnid]

>>Read all of it. Hmmm a highly inbreed socal spider.

Yep i read all of it twice to get the info to reply back

>>you said several post ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by angelarachnid
And remember inbreeding is not just the 30 years or so a species might have been kept in captivity, its all the thousands of years they have been living in these isolated populations.

Now then no one yet has posted any links to the scientific proof that inbreeding occurs in theraphosid spiders, so lets widen the range any inverts?


>>So that is what I did. Do you not remember what you write?

Yep i remeber most of what i write,

But when you come out with statements like:

>>If we look at other spiders we find inbreeding depression.

And then use this paper

http://www.iee.uu.se/zooekol/pdf/articles/646.pdf

as your proof of inbreeding depression you seem to be the one who cannot remember what you write or do not understand the paper shows no clear proof that inbreeding is a problem for this species, if fact it shows this species seems to have evolved for inbreeding.

>>From page eleven:
-------------------------------------------------------
The decline in trait values as a result of full–sib matings
in S. lineatus were generally less than 10 %, with the
exception of juvenile body mass (21%) and growth rate
(38%).
-------------------------------------------------------

And following that on the same Paragraph

__________________________________________________

This prediction was only party supported in our study, in which
life history traits such as fecundity, hatchling succsess, and
survival declined very little following inbreeding.............
...survival in S. lineatus sugest a relitively high tolerance to inbreeding.

___________________________________________________


from page Seven

___________________________________________________

Breeding treatment did not influence survival to adulthood,
which was 84% of inbred offspring and 81% for outbred offspring.
_____________________________________________________


>>21% of the Juvenile spiders show reduce body mass with comparied to >>outbreed Juvenile spiders. almost .5 mg of a 5 mg spider

>>31% of the juvenile spiders showed slower growth rates.

I would put this down to the natural size variance of young within any population and not to inbreeding, i have blondi N2 from 1cm -2.5 cm (from wild caught eggsacs), i have an eggsac of P. rufialta which is about to turn into spiderlings and another which is still at N1 not turning dark, these were only found 1 week apart but show growth rates of well different than one week. and these are from sisters with the same male, therefore the same genetic makeup.

Body mass and growth rate can be effected by food water temperature etc,

I see no where in the paper where it says the body mass of food given to each enclosure and the regularity the food was given.

Also on the paper i cannot see if the males and females are sexually dimorphic, if the males are smaller then the spiderling mass might be smaller and the 31% of slower growing could be a high proportion of one sex.

>>It took almost 7 days longer to disperse. 7 out of 80 days.

Well i cannot find this statement of the paper??? On table 6 i can find that dispersal was ON AVERAGE 7.99 days, and that a factor of nearly 7 varied within the groups within Patch and between patch

>>According to you this should not happen. A inbreed spider is as strong and >>big as an outbreed spider.

Where did i say this should not happen? or are you refering to the big inbred male regalis who defied all the inbreeding theorys??

>>I know, run behind your wall of "IT IS NOT TARANTULAS." Go ahead.

WHAT??? you HAVE NOT PROVEN ANYTHING all you are doing is picking small points from the paper (without the text around them) to try to show the paper DOES show inbreeding problems which it does NOT.

We can both play that game and if you want to we need to lay down the rules which are quite simply we must fully referance each line from the paper and and can only use that quote from that line once, I think i have won there are more pro inbreeding statements in there than there are anti,

>>I can not debate this if you do not wish to do the work.

you are funny, i have done more work breeding spiders than you ahve done, at least i can speak from experiance, you cannot even chose the right paper to support yourself.

Anyway i am of for some grub

Later

Ray

 

[angelarachnid]

And just another WE small point

>>I know, run behind your wall of "IT IS NOT TARANTULAS." Go ahead.

The original question was in referance to TARANTULAS i seem to be the only one trying to stick to the subject first asked.



Ray