Inbreeding?

[AfterTheAsylum]

Yes, I have extensively studied arachnids, have you?

Nice to see a fellow pseudoscientist. I took genetics, zoology, and pretty much every biology in college. I now donate T. blondis to my college, and a bunch of other specimens. People are amazed at the size and colors of these things - even professors. I'll tell ya what though, the coolest thing i ever got to witness in zoology was the spider crab. Oh I want one. Keep on thedarkfinder.

T.S.

 

[Scorpiove]

Anyone want to guess how many female L. parahybana are the mothers of EVERY single specimen in the hobby? (or A. geniculata or P. rufilata or a slew of other species)

Inbreed away.

I'm just gonna have to agree with Goterps its obviously been done many times. Especially with species that are protected, and can't be aquired legally in the wild anymore.

 

[AfterTheAsylum]

I'm just gonna have to agree with Goterps its obviously been done many times. Especially with species that are protected, and can't be aquired legally in the wild anymore.

Ask him how many times he has inbred.

 

[angelarachnid]

HHHHHHHHMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMm

Ok lets start with L parahaybana, only 3 eggsacs were ever imported into captivity so ALL L parahaybana come from 3 bloodlines (less if these are related)

So any problems with L. parahaybana who by now must severly be inbred????

P. rufilata, all teh stock we ahve now is from the origonal 16 specimens brought into Germany, any problems?? which cannot be put down to husbandry?

Mr scientist man, if elephant seals went down to 100 specimens and are now at 160,000 why the hell are they looking into breeding problems??? seems to me like they are doing OK.

Flightless frutflies are inbred to give that abnormality for feeding stuff, its not because of have been inbred they appear like this it s because the strain was inbred to show that the strain is genetically inheritable they are like this.


Cmon all you web browsers post link to the scientific paper that concludes 100% that inbreeding is a problem in Theraphosid spiders.


There is one major work which cites inbreeding as a problem, and that is based on one guys "proof" that a hard to breed species produced a bad eggsac, so it must ahev been inbreeding.....YEA RIGHT my regalis have had bad eggsacs (yep most are inbred but the last lot of bad eggsacs came from an unrelated male.

Anyone see the BTS journal with my article on my 20cm male 3rd generation inbred P. regalis who fathered 1140 young?


How many of the people spouting of in this thread ahev actually bred spiders for any length of time?

How many have stood in the middle of a wild spider colony?

I have inbred most of my spiders for years with no problems, my regalis group of 14 females have mostly come from one eggsac from inbred parents

any UK peopel with regalis from me had any problems??

The fact is NO ONE KNOWS there is tons of speculation but no facts.Save one. NO ONE KNOWS.

If you stick NEW BLOOD LINE on a price list WOW what a way to sell unwanted stock, the suckers will go for it.

Pokes live in family groups (with the exception of mettalica and ornata (and in my case striata) and before all the muppets start chirping in NO THEY ARE NOT FORCED to live together, they do it by instinct, they are adapted to be social, unlike Brachpelma try FORCING these to live together.

Now in pokie groups the first mature male, is he going to amte the first receptive female (possibly his mother or an older sibling) or go wandering off across the jungle floor looking for a tree with a hole in it which will possibly have a amte in it risking life and limd???

Is he hell he will mate the first receptive female why do you think they stagger thier growth when kept communually? i believe it is so there will always be a male and female in the tree hole to keep the COLONY alive.

Ray

 

[Scorpiove]

Ask him how many times he has inbred.

Goterps is simply reffering to the inbreeding project that is our hobby

Thanks Ray I couldn't remember who it was with the 3rd generation Pokie. Glad to see someone with actual experience in this exact matter (inbreeding tarantulas) post their experience.

 

[edesign]

imagine a world where nobody was allowed to comment on a subject unless they had done it...the scientific community would be back in the stone age. There is a reason people study different fields...to gain expertise in a certain subject. It is not often that something occurs in biology or genetics or any other field (to my limited knowledge anyway) that flies in the face of what is taught at every university/college across the world. What is learned through years of studying can be directly applied to the real world whether the person has actually done it or not. Take electrical engineering...my specialty...i learned all kinds of equations and laws while in school and low and behold not ONCE since I have ever applied this knowledge to stuff I have messed with have I been misled (save for miscalculations). I may not have ever worked on a generator creating a couple hundred thousand watts, but I do know I can figure out the amperage, cable size required, how much to derate it, etc. Not exactly what you were talking about, just making a point using something I know about.

No offense scorpio...but even I thought you were being a bit offensive with your initial post towards thedarkfinder. You may not have meant to be, maybe smiley's would have helped...but it still came across in a negative fashion.

 

[edesign]

Mr scientist man, if elephant seals went down to 100 specimens and are now at 160,000 why the hell are they looking into breeding problems??? seems to me like they are doing OK.

breeding problems do not necessarily equal reproductive problems. Look at Dalmations...they've been inbred for quite some time and they are known for bad hearts (and joints too i think?). This is a breeding problem. Look at the old royal English family back when they inbred a LOT...they had a lot of hemophiliacs. Why? Because hemophilia is a recessive gene (last I read...about 10 years ago in high school lol) and during inbreeding recessive genes have a much higher chance of being expressed in the newly created being using the same limited genetic pool.

is it just me or do you seem a bit confrontational? :? It might just be me...seriously

 

[TheDarkFinder]

angelarachnid Breath, in out in out in out.
Wow, now that is defensive. I posted the elephant seal thing to say there may not be a problem with inbreeding.

And there are problems, they are being studied. And your eyes lie to you, they are not well.

What you have done with your breeding is called a founder effect. It is not impossible to inbreed but there maybe side effects.

Every animal related population has been inbreed. Look at dogs, snakes, rats, mice, lizards, crickets, fish, the list goes on and on.

Some species are less likely to respond to inbreeding, some respond to it will.

I would vote agianst doing what you do, unless there is just simply no more members of that speces and you have too.

thedarkfinder

 

[TheDarkFinder]

P.S

"Mr. scienceman" here. IMBREEDING WILL NOT SHOW UP IN 3, 5, or 10 generations. It takes time. It will show up in little ways, shorten life span, low surivival rate, and bad molts. But T blondi is not imbreed but shows these problems.


I got better things to do.
thedarkfinder

 

[angelarachnid]

HAHAAHAHA

notice how the anti inbreeding group automatically try to fall back on inbreeding in vertibrates and try to steer the course AWAY from INVERTIBRATES.

And it is known that in SOME species a minority of a percent of thespecies known there seems to be some inbreeding problems (MOSTLY IN CAPTIVITY).

But if you want to go down the road of inbreeding INSULAR Epicraties species, or should i say subspecies now how do you think they evolved???????

I could list tonns of vertibrate species which have to be inbreed just through island populations with no contact to other populations,

Galapagos marine iguanas how many bloodlines there???

So cummon guys lets stick to inverts OK

so here we go


PARTHANOGENISES


explain to me how inbreeding causes problems here;P ;P ;P


There is a species of Dolichopod fly found in one corner of one field around 1 water trough in the UK, the ONLY place where this species is found in the UK (guess who has a background in entomology?)

The specimens collected last year are identical to the type specimen collected gawd nows when so inbred after how many generations??

And if you really want to go into inbreeding in BIG DEPTH

Read The Ancestors Tale by Richard Dawkins

because (not just stated in the above book) most species seem to have evolved form possibly one specimen which had some "abnormality" so must all be inbred to some degree i am sure we can all mention some "obvious" place where inbreeding occurs in humans look at the spice girls for example.

Ray

 

[TheDarkFinder]

Look at the old royal English family back when they inbred a LOT...they had a lot of hemophiliacs. Why? Because hemophilia is a recessive gene (last I read...about 10 years ago in high school lol) and during inbreeding recessive genes have a much higher chance of being expressed in the newly created being using the same limited genetic pool.

To derail this thread. If you want a good read, look up sickle cell anmena and malaria in african populations. Intersting. Selection pressure creating a system that keeps a population inbreed with a disease that kills the young that has two alleles. But protects the ones with only one allele.
thedarkfinder

 

[angelarachnid]

>IMBREEDING WILL NOT SHOW UP IN 3, 5, or 10 generations. It takes time. It >will show up in little ways, shorten life span, low surivival rate, and bad >molts.

so you are saying it takes along time to show these problems (if they happen),

Now then just a small point here,


there are very few species of Theraphosid spider which have been around long enough to have been inbred that long, and many species of theraphosid spider still have some fresh wild blood comming in (like blondi) so NO ONE has bred ANY species long enough to show any signs of inbreeding

so where are you getting your FACTS that you can post with such reasurance there is a problem with theraphosid inbreeding?

>But T blondi is not imbreed but shows these problems.

Bad husbandry

blondi is HARDLY ever bred in captivity, 99% of the young are from w/c eggsacs.

Not only that the blondi in captivity are from such a varied source and very few are seasoned together (Todd Gearheart pers comm) that it could be there are problems BECAUSE

people are trying to breed from UNRELATED COLONYS

just like subfusca (does it make sense no as to why they are haed to breed?)

Ray

 

[alucard1965]

If you read the bible where did we all come from, one man and one woman,now thats some big inbeeding

 

[angelarachnid]

Dark finder

VERTIBRATES AGAIN;P

Ray

 

[TheDarkFinder]

angelarachnid

You had your cheeros today.

Great point nobody, not even you, can say inbreeding is good or bad. The 10 generations thing may not be. It could be the hundred generations.

But in the early years of this hobby, we must take care not to follow a the leader. We must guard agianst problems seen in other hobbies. We can not say go for inbreeding because we do not understand what will happen in the long run.

I'm done here, I have papers to write and experiments to take care of.
Have fun guys.
thedarkfinder

 

[Scorpiove]

imagine a world where nobody was allowed to comment on a subject unless they had done it...the scientific community would be back in the stone age. There is a reason people study different fields...to gain expertise in a certain subject. It is not often that something occurs in biology or genetics or any other field (to my limited knowledge anyway) that flies in the face of what is taught at every university/college across the world. What is learned through years of studying can be directly applied to the real world whether the person has actually done it or not. Take electrical engineering...my specialty...i learned all kinds of equations and laws while in school and low and behold not ONCE since I have ever applied this knowledge to stuff I have messed with have I been misled (save for miscalculations). I may not have ever worked on a generator creating a couple hundred thousand watts, but I do know I can figure out the amperage, cable size required, how much to derate it, etc. Not exactly what you were talking about, just making a point using something I know about.

No offense scorpio...but even I thought you were being a bit offensive with your initial post towards thedarkfinder. You may not have meant to be, maybe smiley's would have helped...but it still came across in a negative fashion.

I deffinately did not mean to be offensive, It just seems that whenever someone post a new question on these boards someone almost always says "Don't or reffers them to the search function, here is what my post was mostly directed at casesensitive:

I definately wouldnt suggest it.

Inbreeding in any situation with any animal on earth can lead to abnormalities.

type 'inbreeding' in that box up there that says 'search' and you can find lots of information.

Amazing how useful that tool is.

I myself have bolded the part I'm talking about. Now if somoene post somehting on handling, inbreeding why do they post like this? Why not post useful replies or non at all? I'm actually happy with the response my posts so far have got me. it made soulsick and thedarkfinder actually elaborate on what they were talking about. They both brought up good points. I still lean (from what I observed) to the side that inbreeding is not nearly as bad in inevertebrates as it is in vertebrates.

If anyone took any offense I deffinately didn't mean any so cheers!

 

[edesign]

:wall: :wall: :wall:

*hands angelarachnid a tall stool*

stand on that so the next time someone posts it doesn't fly over your head

 

[angelarachnid]

>You had your cheeros today.

NAW dont do breakfast not awake enough

>Great point nobody, not even you, can say inbreeding is good or bad. The 10> generations thing may not be. It could be the hundred generations.

Based on what?

>But in the early years of this hobby, we must take care not to follow a the >leader.

WE ARE in the early years of this hobby still

But have a quick look at british butterflies, bred in captivity for over a centuary, ok i will agree possibly some inbreeding but not for the last few years with many species i could mention, they have to be inbred but no reported prblems for now???


>We must guard agianst problems seen in other hobbies. We can not say go >for inbreeding because we do not understand what will happen in the long >run.

Such as? in other hobbies?

TRUE but when the wild populations are observed where does it show genetic flow which is not inbreeding???

>I'm done here, I have papers to write and experiments to take care of.

So do i, i also have a lecture to write and a bunch of spiders to feed

Ray

 

[edesign]

scorpio...i see what you mean. This is not a question that comes up very often, at least not in the almost two years I have been here. I like to direct people to the search function a lot myself, usually for commonly asked questions that there are literally 30 threads about already. I really don't see anything wrong with doing your own research to answer a common question...in this case however, I agree with you. There may be some older threads about it, in that case the newb to the boards would have done well to post a link to them and then say, "search" Sure seems like a lot of people on the forum have been pretty irritable lately...cabin fever?

edit: case in point...i threw "inbreed" in to the advanced search function for the T forums and came up with a whopping 17 results, and not all of those were specific to inbreeding. However, if the newb is still reading, punch in "beginner species" or "rosea weird" and you get umpteen hundred (exaggeration) results. I see nothing wrong with discussing something that has hardly been touched on in the how-many-years-this-board-has-been-online.

what i do get tired of is people getting pissy about a post for no reason, going on the defensive (won't name names in this one, dont' need to) and screaming bloody murder (not literally) when someone posts something that they can't see the parallels to 'nuff said...i'm going to eat some cheerios

 

[angelarachnid]

edesign

>*hands angelarachnid a tall stool*

>stand on that so the next time someone posts it doesn't fly over your head

WOT THE Fish are you on about?????????


>breeding problems do not necessarily equal reproductive problems.

HHHMMMM i thought breeding and reproduction were the same thing amybe i am wrong please explain the DIFFERANCE;P ;P

>Look at Dalmations...they've been inbred for quite some time and they are >known for bad hearts (and joints too i think?). This is a breeding problem. >Look at the old royal English family back when they inbred a LOT...they had >a lot of hemophiliacs. Why? Because hemophilia is a recessive gene (last I >read...about 10 years ago in high school lol) and during inbreeding recessive >genes have a much higher chance of being expressed in the newly created >being using the same limited genetic pool.


ALALALAALALA VERTIBRATES LALALALAALALAAL

Cmon some proof on INVERTS

Ray