Hysterocrates hercules....

[ancientscout]

About H. Hercules

I agree with what Steve N. said above. It is just not possible at the moment to prove nor disprove. I recently received a reply from Rick West concerning questions that i had concerning the truth about this animal, fact or fiction.
I did not ask Rick for permission to quote him so as it should be..i won't.

What i generally came away with is that it is felt that the one badly messed up specimen that is generally referred to as H.Hercules and displayed at The British Museum of Natural History doesn't leave much to go on. The species on display their i believe is female and originally came from lower Niger.

I think it is felt that some 19 of 21 described Hysterocrates species are susposed to come from Cameroon. Being what Rick referred to as a small non-geographically diverse country. I don't think he feels that way. I also went away with the notion that Rick felt that after careful taxonomic studies it would be found to be synonymous and their numbers would be greatly reduced.

I can say that Rick said that he had seen hobbyists raise H. Gagis to the dimensions of the one known H. Hercules and as Gigas was discribed before Hercules it may be possible that Hercules is a synonymn of Gigas.

Lastly, i think i can say that Rick stated that no one really knows for sure, but i think that is Rick's thought that it is certainly possible that Hercules is simly a synonymn of Gigas.

One last thing. Rick did say and i think it safe to say here that he was in Cameroon including along the Niger border and found nothing but Gigas and Crassipes.

I thank Rick for his time and great response to my questions concerning the debate of whether or not H. Hercules is real or just smoke. Lastly, i do feel that it would have to be someone that i trust either knows more about these particular animals than someone such as Rick West before i can sort this one out for myself.
Ancientscout

 

[Tescos]

I can say that Rick said that he had seen hobbyists raise H. Gagis to the dimensions of the one known H. Hercules and as Gigas was discribed before Hercules it may be possible that Hercules is a synonymn of Gigas.

Lastly, i think i can say that Rick stated that no one really knows for sure, but i think that is Rick's thought that it is certainly possible that Hercules is simly a synonymn of Gigas.

One last thing. Rick did say and i think it safe to say here that he was in Cameroon including along the Niger border and found nothing but Gigas and Crassipes.

From reading this I still have a problem understanding . Are you saying that Mr West can identify Hysterocrates down to species level? This is good to hear if he indeed can. Or were the H.gigas and H.crassipes[/I] that he has found, and has seen that were rasied by hobbyists identified to a point by location details on the different papers for them or something like that?
I ask because if it is indeed possible to verifiy what species of Hysterocrates you are keeping then it would make the captive breeding of these species a whole lot better and avoid mix ups. From this also we may be able to learn what to look for in the many (IMO) captive bred hybrids that are sold under a true specie names, and be able to seperate them from the "pure" species that are kept.

 

[Steve Nunn]

From reading this I still have a problem understanding . Are you saying that Mr West can identify Hysterocrates down to species level?

Hi Chris,
Rick has a pretty good grasp on the Hystercrates material, having seen many of the forms both in the wild and the holotype specimens for reference. I think what Rick is saying more then anything is that the specific identification of these is almost impossible at this stage, almost the same comments that Richard Gallon has made

Cheers,
Steve

 

[ancientscout]

Correct Steve

You are quite correct Steve. What i went away with is that Rick West is saying that as a question of is H. Hercules or is H. Hercules a real and valid species. No one knows for sure, it is not 100%.

Additionally, on his trip to Cameroon, he did not find any indications of such an animal and in fact H. Hercules may be a synonymn of Gigas. Thats what he was saying.

Steve has been spot on here in this thread as to regards to this matter. He is quite correct in what he has been saying.

It goes without saying that there are those out there that will always believe that somewhere out there there is something undiscovered, something so big, so fast, so powerful that it might be able to dispatch your mother-in-law in short order. Venomous the worst..able to leap over a car and come after you, without question, something that can bite through schools, make mankinds life a living nightmare?.. absoloutely!

Do we need anything larger than say L. Parahybana or some such thing? i cannot imagine why.
Ancientscout

 

[Tescos]

Hi Chris,
Rick has a pretty good grasp on the Hystercrates material, having seen many of the forms both in the wild and the holotype specimens for reference. I think what Rick is saying more then anything is that the specific identification of these is almost impossible at this stage, almost the same comments that Richard Gallon has made

Cheers,
Steve

Cheers Steve that made it a bit more clearer to me.

The reason I did wonder is because of what I read, the types for H.crassipes, H.gigas,H.hercules and infact many of the others seem to be quite damaged (to what extent off course I can't say) makeing identification I would expect very difficult. The other problem I have is that it only says that Mr West went to Cameroon. Did he also go to Niger to look for H.hercules as is this not the place where the type specimen came from (Jebba, Upper Niger, collected by Lt. Abadie)?
If not, then is it not a bit of a jump to say that I]H.gigas[/I] and H.hercules may be the same thing, as there is quite a lot of miles between the two collection points of each species regardless of the terrain?
I just mean that by just saying that H.hercules wasn't seen in Cameroon doesn't really mean anything except what it says. If however the same was said about the Upper Niger then maybe things might fit more into place if you see what I mean.

Sorry if this post reads a bit strange but I was having a lot of trouble to put into words what I mean so I hope you get it?:?

BTW the only information on Hysterocrates sp.I have is the book by Andrew Smith, so forgive me if I have it wrong or if it has been since changed since it's publication.

 

[ancientscout]

Rick West

This is an endless debate on the issue of H. Hercules. Recognized world wide as an expert If Mr. West says that he did not find any indications of H. Hercules on his trip to Cameroon and he believed it not to be there or, at best not proveable then i would have to take his word on the matter. If you chose to believe in the existance of such an animal great. If you have doubts or wish to clairify this issue then i suggest you contact Rick and ask him for yourself.
The bottom line?.. it cannot be proved either way that this animal exists or does not. I tend to believe Rick when he said that it is possible that H. Hercules is in fact linked under the shadow of Gigas.
Ancientscout

 

[angelarachnid]

I have been directed to this thread.

The specimen which some people have been refering to "at the BTS Exhibition", was possibly my specimen.

Before giving the specimen to Richard Gallon (the worlds authority on African theraphosids) i sent him an exuvia, his comments were to the effect of "possibly the closest thing he has seen to H. hercules" but he could not say for sure untill he compared my specimen when dead with the typs specimen.

That specimen is now dead and Richard doupts if it is indeed H. hercules.

Considering virtually NO ONE has compared dead specimens from imported stock (prior to selling, or after) with ANY of the type specimens,

NO ONE in the hobby has any definite H. gigas, crassipes or hercules.

Untill a revision of the genus is done it will stay like that.

so when you see the names on dealers lists it is probably what they have bought them for, or what they THINK they look like.

the name H. hercules = big bucks..........end of story

Ray

 

[Tescos]

This is an endless debate on the issue of H. Hercules

Just maybe unresolved I think but interesting nether the less don't you think?

Recognized world wide as an expert If Mr. West says that he did not find any indications of H. Hercules on his trip to Cameroon and he believed it not to be there or, at best not proveable then i would have to take his word on the matter

Again why would they be found in Cameroon? Also how was he able to tell apart the species he did find in Cameroon? This is still to me unclear.

If you chose to believe in the existance of such an animal great.

How can I believe or disbelieve in this until a revision is done?

If you have doubts or wish to clairify this issue then i suggest you contact Rick and ask him for yourself.

I have emailed Mr West through his site but had no reply as yet. Still I expect he is a very buzy man and can't answer every email from every Tom, Dick and Harry.

The bottom line?.. it cannot be proved either way that this animal exists or does not

I agree there. Until a revision is done it will I think remain a mystery.

I tend to believe Rick when he said that it is possible that H. Hercules is in fact linked under the shadow of Gigas

In what way the genus name? or that they may be synonymous? If so what is this based on?

Here are some other threads that are quite interesting also.
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=7987
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showthread.php?t=7866

Cheers
Chris

 

[ancientscout]

Rick West will reply

Just try and be patient. Rick will respond. He is very willing to share his knowledge and answer questions. I would say that it is safe to say that he probably is too busy to become involved in debates and discussions but, one never knows. I think it took him a couple of days to respond to my last question that was posted in this thread.

As for Cameroon, that is where Rick said that he had taken a trip to that part of the world for whatever reason that he went there. Again, i think that If anyone would have the ability to find, or travel to a region to find H. Hercules or prove/disprove it's existance it would be Mr. West or someone of his stature in the field. It is simply unknown at this point.
Ancientscout

 

[Tescos]

I think you miss my point. Why go to Cameroon to look for Hystercrates hercules when they were discribed from a speciem that came from Jebba in the Upper Niger? I'm sure or at least hope that this theroy about H.gigas and H.hercules being one and the same is not just based on that he couldn't find H.hercules in a place where they weren't even to be known to be from in the first place.
It for me just reads like as if I would go to India looking for P.pederseni, not find any so then think that they are the same as P.striata!

I do hope I get a reply from my email as it all seems very strange to me.
Cheers
Chris

 

[Paul Osullivan]

Hi All,

I wish I obtained these spiders I have now.. 14 years ago.. so sorry this is so late but its very relevant to this thread. I have some spiders that hitched a ride in a plant and I have grown these on from spiderlings. All I know is they are from "west africa" unfortunately, but I have exhausted myself over 2 years analyzing Pocock's description of it and other Hysterocrates (I agree Pocock's work is vague compared to modern taxonomy, but it does highlight some distinguishing features true only to H.Hercules of the specimen pre preservation and visual features described using descriptive words by Pocock now lost due to swelling) I feel it really shouldn't be over looked.

My spiders look exactly alike to 'Rick West's'"C.f Hercules" from N.W Nigeria and 'Whiteys' Sp. Nigeria from "Nigeria". So they must definately be from at least Nigeria. Whiteys also looks Identical to the holotype. I think sometimes a bit of common sense and time studying good evedence can achieve a common goal. I have done a lot of research and tried to piece as many little bits of information as I can from all sources available as surely at some point you will have enough evidence to suggest it's likely it or at least the same species but from a different location. I would think after thousands or millions of years of undisturbace it could inhabit, spread then dominate the whole area of its habitat which could be hundreds or thousands of square miles!

I hope I get some interest in the research I have done and it would be great to get people chatting. It will obviously never be H. Hercules, just C.f Hercules or most Similar too and that I think it will have to do it seems given its dangerous habitat.. unless it's found in the same location again, but even then it probably still won't be it

I put a link to my research into H. Hercules in the bottom of this Y.t Clips description as I'm forever getting told off for putting the link here there and everywhere..

Hercules/

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Thanks..