Hysterocrates hercules....

[xenesthis]

Taxonomy problems with this genus

Martin and all:

Yes, your quotes of Rick West's posts confirm what I have been saying - the genus needs revision badly.

Let's explore a typical pet trade problem.

Trusted and knowledgeable European dealer "X" has on his pricelist "Hysterocrates hercules" (along with H. gigas) spiderlings. When the American buyer inquires about these "hercules", the European dealer says they are the real hercules and shows a picture of the mother with ruler in the background. The photo shows a dark brown Hysterocrates with olive leg hairs, an oval carapace, hind legs proportional and close to being the same length of the front legs and a legspan just over 8 inches. Fairly convincing based on what we read is the real hercules, right?

American buyer imports these and sells them as H. hercules. Spiderlings are grown up and 2-3 years later, hobbyists see the hind legs being a little longer and stronger than the front legs and the carapace seems elongated. Here is the classic problem we have had in the U.S. hobby for the last ten years. Mark Hart, Frank Somma, Bryant Capiz and myself have all experienced this situation. Did we deliberately deceive buyers by selling them as H. hercules? No. Did the European exporter? Probably not. Are all three, the American importer, the European exporter and the original European breeder all out to deceive hobbyists with this name? No. The problem is the genus needs revision badly. We really don't know 100% what we have, we can only go with the information give to us at the time and what he read to name this spider.

We can sell them technically as "Hysterocrates sp. (poss. H. hercules)" , but hobbyists will shorten that long name to Hysterocrates hercules anyway. I agree dealers should have the goal of selling their stock with locality information, BUT there are three classic problems in our trade in fulfilling that goal.

One, collectors don't want to reveal their collecting areas and two, collectors don't care to record this information, and three exporters don't care and often put out short pricelists with just basic info to fit on their pricelists such as scientific name, size and price. You rarely get a description and locality info. That's a joke.

So, you see, we might all like these Hysterocrates spp., but until the genus is revised, species level identifications will be highly controversial and debated, especially the elusive H. hercules.

One thing has happened because of the hercules problem. Back in the early '90s of the American hobby, "H. hercules" sold for $95 for spiderlings and $350 for adults. Because of the controversial debate on the correct ID if this spider, prices have came way down and leveled out to reflect this problem. Anybody selling "H. hercules" in the American hobby can't ask for those prices anymore. "H. hercules" spiderlings typically only sell for 25-50% more than "H. gigas", or "H. crassipes" spiderlings, and since Rick West's Cameroon trip two years ago and the findings reported, "H. gigas" has actually increased in price and appreciation now that American hobbyists realize that 75% of what was imported the last ten years was not "H. gigas", but instead "H. crassipes". Now, real "H. gigas" is highly appreciated in hobbyists collections.

Again, things have changed and opinions change with them. Everbody needs to stay open-minded and flexible about this Hysterocrates hercules debate. Until the genus is revised, it's interesting to debate this topic, but we will be spinning our wheels here.

Todd


Todd

 

[stewartb]

Hello,

In the case of the so-called "hercules," I think we can assume never. And while expecting this from a dealer would be asking for an unreasonable level of certainty, I don't think it would be unreasonable for a pricelist or web page to explicitly declare any known UNcertainty

Exactally.

Once again, this is not directed at anyone in particular as in my humble opinion this problem is seen far to often in the hobby.

I would suggest that if someone is selling a spider as the "true" X or "the real deal" etc, then they need to be able to back these claims up with science. In the case of H. hercules, I do not see how it is possible for the reasons stated previously.

Regards,

Stew.

Incidentally, in the UK we have trade description laws, which mean if you are sold something as X and it turns out not to be that, you are protected and can rightfully demand a full refund. (Ultimatley the trader could be liable for prosecution.)

 

[Martin H.]

Hello Todd,

Trusted and knowledgeable European dealer

what is a "trusted dealer"? Someone who doesn't cheat monetary? Someone with a good service? Someone with healthy/quality stock? Someone who sends samples of his stock to systematists to get confirmed IDs? Someone with cool common names? Someone who is good in convincing others? Someone with a vast background knowledge? Someone who...

American buyer imports these and sells them as H. hercules. Spiderlings are grown up and 2-3 years later, hobbyists see the hind legs being a little longer and stronger than the front legs and the carapace seems elongated. Here is the classic problem we have had in the U.S. hobby for the last ten years. Mark Hart, Frank Somma, Bryant Capiz and myself have all experienced this situation. Did we deliberately deceive buyers by selling them as H. hercules? No. Did the European exporter? Probably not. Are all three, the American importer, the European exporter and the original European breeder all out to deceive hobbyists with this name? No.

but when the importers are aware of this situation, that there are a lot of mislabelled species offered on the marked, why don't they do a crosscheck to see if they really got what they allegedly bought? ...without doing such a crosscheck, aren't they assenting to hazard the consequences to forward a misslabelled species!?

The problem is the genus needs revision badly. We really don't know 100% what we have, we can only go with the information give to us at the time and what he read to name this spider.

but when one is aware that he does not know what it really is, how can he give it a certain label?

all the best,
Martin

PS.: BTW, may I ask...

My old sale descriptions were valid at the time, but changes have happened. Did we see Rick's site last year say H. gigas was possibly a sr. name for the merger of H. hercules? No. Well, changes of opinion have happened, and so has mine. H.gigas WAS known to have thick back legs, but that old tale has been told over and over, but what we had called H. gigas for years in the hobby was instead H. crassipes, and what some had been calling H. gigas was instead H. hercules. Changes happen and so do opinions.

when you say that changes have happened and so does your opinion, why do you still have something labelled as "Hysterocrates hercules 'African Goliath Baboon'" on your invertebrate stocklist from April 2004 on your website?

3.0 Hysterocrates hercules “African Goliath Baboon”, CB’02, 3”-3.5”, sub-adult, Rare!, Stocky, grows to 8”-10”!, $65
0.2 Hysterocrates hercules “African Goliath Baboon”, CB’02, 4.5”-5”, sub-adult,Rare!, Stocky, grows to 8”-10”!, $95

So are you now of the opinion there is something like Hysterocrates hercules or not?

 

[xenesthis]

Nuff said

Hmm...as anybody can read on this thread, I have gone way out of way to not do any mudslinging and keep the thread above par, but we have three people here that are using this thread for some target practice. Sorry to disappoint, but I won't play. Your agenda is clear. This thread isn't about H. hercules. You've pirated another thread.

I've stated all that I need to say on this topic (which is supposed to be H. hercules), but I'll just add in one question that stands out:

Why aren't other dealers called out for selling "H. hercules" on their pricelists? Hmm, checking today I see over four U.S. dealers selling "H. hercules". The same standards should apply, but they are not. Why? I don't see Hysterocrates sp. ( poss. "hercules") on their lists. I see some double standards here, but what's more important is note what Martin and DE3 are doing by singling me out. I have done no different than the other dealers. They get info at the time of their acquitions that a Hysterocrates is supposed to be hercules, and they sell them as such. All the standards Martin posts seem to not apply to them. Why?

Sorry, target practice closed Martin. I won't play. Scott already said no more personal attacks. Let's see, what you going to do now, pirate another thread again for your agenda?

Todd

 

[stewartb]

Hello all.

I will try and be careful in how I word this, as I do not wish to upset anyone.

Why aren't other dealers called out for selling "H. hercules" on their pricelists? Hmm, checking today I see over four U.S. dealers selling "H. hercules". The same standards should apply, but they are not. Why? I don't see Hysterocrates sp. ( poss. "hercules") on their lists.

A fair point IMHO.

Personally I do not see a big problem is selling a spider as H. hercules. I think it is (certainally in Europe) accepted that hercules is a "pet trade" name, and as such just another unidentified/hybridized Hysterocrates spec. Like many other species in the hobby, the current hercules is very likely not the same as the type. (The danger there is that others do not view species this way and believe that what they have is what it is meant to be. As long as we all accept that the "pet trade" spec are just that then I do not see a big problem.)

However, my personal opinion is that I don,t see how people can justify selling spiders as "the true", the "genuine article" or the "real deal" etc without being able to adequately check their spiders against the type spec and prove such claims.

Todd, please do not read this as personal attack on you, I accept that this practice is common in the hobby. I do feel that these claims seem to be (I might regret this) more prevelant in the USA. With this in mind, it might be a cultural difference in the way terms and used, and the understanding of such phrases. Prehaps we in Europe see terms like "the true" the "real deal" to carry a different meaning and a greater onus on proof than our colleagues accross the pond.

Hope my ramblings make sense.

Again, please do not read this as an attack on any individual, but as a question of "accepted " practice.

Take care all,

Stew.

 

[DE3]

Hmm...as anybody can read on this thread, I have gone way out of way to not do any mudslinging and keep the thread above par, but we have three people here that are using this thread for some target practice. Sorry to disappoint, but I won't play. Your agenda is clear. This thread isn't about H. hercules. You've pirated another thread.

Hi Todd,

Firstly, from here on out, in this thread or others, I will make every effort to avoid personal attack towards you (or anybody else). Especially if you do.
Obviously you were writing to Martin in the above quote.
But I started this thread, and I can assure you that I am trying to stay on topic.

I've stated all that I need to say on this topic (which is supposed to be H. hercules)

That is certainly your option -- no problem.

But if you will... . ...... Lets go back to square one. I had aquired the Hysterocrates sp pictured in #1 a while back. Doesn't matter anymore where it came from. I hadn't seen it ~4 months, and it was well into its second round of no apparent activity whatsoever. As I do, I got curious, and I decided to dig it up. Out emerged a gorgeus animal! I took pictures, and began to plan for its future. I thought it would be a good future breeding project because it seemed to be an excellent specimen of H hercules. I had plenty of other things to do, and since it had been so reclusive, I was at a point where I need to re-investigate the herc.

Of course it didnt take long to figure out there was a controversy.....So I posted the new thread, both so I could sort out the future of the t, and because it seemed like an interesting topic for the board.

You can list something to be technically correct at the time, but some will change the name anyway.

This is true technically, but IMO, if the dealers labled the "same" product the same way batch after batch, it wouldnt take long for real change to occur.

Changes happen and so do opinions.

Absolutely! And thats why I find my other hobby (archaeology/history) so fascinating. History does change. Science as we know it changes.
And with your status within the International Tarantula Trade, your clarified position on this topic may be worth more than "2 cents".......

Why aren't other dealers called out for selling "H. hercules" on their pricelists? Hmm, checking today I see over four U.S. dealers selling "H. hercules". The same standards should apply, but they are not. Why? I don't see Hysterocrates sp. ( poss. "hercules") on their lists.

I agree in priciple We are talking about exchanging money (usually) for something specific, even if the specificity "isn't known".

I see some double standards here, but what's more important is note what Martin and DE3 are doing by singling me out.

You volunteered participation early on. A few other dealers/experts stopped in, and at least did not leave much doubt as to how they feel about "The Question"

"The Question" gets to the meat of the matter. Martin beat me to the question, Below is my version of his question. The reason I ask it is because your commentary as it sits now could possibly be interpreted that you both do, and do not believe that H. hercules exists within the trade. It occurs to me that maybe you aren't aware that there are a number of people that are confused with your take on this, so this might be a good opportunity to clarify.

So are you now of the opinion there is something like Hysterocrates hercules in the hobby or not?

I'll participate as long as it takes -- if we're done now -- that's fine.


Peace, Love, Live Long and Prosper

 

[xenesthis]

Finalizing this thread

DE3,

Your last post was legit and constructive, so I'll answer your question:

>So are you now of the opinion there is something like Hysterocrates hercules >in the hobby or not?

1) I'm not a theraphosid taxonomist.
2) Hysterocrates genus is not my specialty. I import, trade and sell them on on occasion, but they are a secretive species that likes deep burrows and doesn't display well. Not what I like. I like S.A. terrestrials like Pamphobeteus and Xenesthis much better.
3) I have seen several adult Hysterocrates that were over an 8" legspan with oval carapaces and the hind legs were the same length and proportions as the front legs in the last 10 years.
4) Do I believe there are some currently in the U.S. hobby? I believe, yes, but I can't confirm that 100%. (Art claims to have one ID'ed by R. West.)
5) I have seen in West African imports over the last ten years some "standout" Hysterocrates spp. that could have been H. hercules.
6) I was sold out of Europe last year a batch of 25 H. hercules that were guaranteed by a Norway breeder and shown a jpeg image of the mother. It lead me to believe it was H. hercules. I can only go with that info at the time.
7) Seeing Rick's site say he believes H. hercules will be merged with H. gigas and H. gigas will be the senior name, that makes sense to me as I've seen some large 8", oval carapace, hind legs proportional and the same length as the front legs Hysterocrates spp. come out of W. Afr. imports over the years.

If we are looking for guarantees here, nope, that isn't going to happen. We can talk and debate and show pics all we want, and have a diversified batch of strong opinions, but until a good theraphosid taxonomist revises the genus in a peer-reviewed journal/magazine, we are spinning our wheels here.

Todd

 

[morda]

Here's my. I bought it as a H. hercules. I don't know what this is for sure. It's probably a female but i'm not sure (destroyed exuvium). Now it's about 3.5" in leg span. Foto taken about 12 hours after it's 10th moult. Dont know what is it - gigas, crassipes....

It's captive bred.

 

[FryLock]

Possibly H.crassipes but who could say for sure plus its C/B that brings in the chance of mixed animal (race or species)

 

[morda]

Yeah - I think so.
One is for sure - it's Hysterocrates
It has very swollen VI pair of legs.

 

[treeweta]

the real hercules

the spider shown by 'midwest art' looks very much like one at the BTS show around 4 years ago, that was apparently a H.hercules, its was larger than the 'gigas' type commonly seen and had slim rear legs.

at the end of the day the spider species i'd really like is the one pictured in Russ Gurleys book, hercules or not its an incredible looking animal, appears to have such a huge carapae in relation to its small legs and It does look very similar to the Rick West photograph.

treeweta.

 

[David_F]

Does anyone here have any of the (older) literature concerning Hysterocrates spp.? Or, if not, any info on who to contact to request copies?

Thanks.

 

[Tescos]

Hi

The main problem of Hysterocrates sp. also goes back to many of the dubious I.Ds that dealers etc give them. For example a few years back at a herp show in Hamm (Germany) all you could see everywhere were species of Hysterocrates sold with the name Hystercrates gigas, but only 6 months later at the same show the main species of Hysterocrates on offer was Hysterocrates hercules and these were more often than not being sold by the same people who were selling Hystercrates gigas 6 months before.

Now I can except that a new shipment of WC spiders could have come in during that time but, I find it hard to believe that all the Hystercrates gigas had been sold during this period, so what happened to them?
I honestly think that all what happened was that the specie names had been swapped around to Hysterocrates hercules just in order that they can get rid of them quicker, as due to it's supposedly larger size as a full grown adult and it's made out rarity in the hobby, Hysterocrates hercules does seem to sell a bit better than Hystercrates gigas.

I think it is easy to see that if this kind of stuff happens (not just between Hysterocrates hercules and Hystercrates gigas, but other Hystercrates sp. and indeed other species all together) then the chances of cross breeding are I think quite high if the spiders all look the same. It seems to me also that until some clever sod does a revision on this genus there isn't going to be anyone who can give you a 100% positive ID on any moults/specimen etc. you send to them, except maybe for a few that are found only in the one location and you know for sure yours comes from there?

It's for this reason I only buy WC examples of this genus but more or than less ignore the species name I buy them as. I ask for import details of where they were imported from and then just label them for example.....
Hystercrates sp. 1 Cameroon March 1998
Hystercrates sp. 2 Cameroon May 1999
Hystercrates sp. 3 Cameroon March 2002
etc etc etc
It's not ideal by no means and it could well be that they are all the same species but I'm not to know this so..

If you lucky you may buy a gravid female that was mated in the wild before it got exported. In this case you label the offspring accordingly and only go on to try and breed the siblings together and with the mother again, as this I think is the only sure way at this time to know if you are mating the same species.
Another thing I think you can do is a mating between a male and female that you buy from the same person that came in the same import, as it is more than likely that they were collected from the same area. (Not always the case though I bet but worth a breeding attempt?)

I have heard tale that it might be too late with this genus in the hobby in regard to trying keep species "pure" but if a good system were put in place that everyone could easily follow I see no reason why it couldn't work. Unless of course hybrids are of no concern and you think that they are anyway nice spiders (like they are)?

If you are thinking I'm talking out my rear end (I do this a lot you know) then answer me this and explain your thinking behind the answer you give.......
The male below is the same species as one of the females below. So tell me which one and why.

Have you got it yet and are you sure of your answer?

Sorry for wasting your time with this post.

 

[Jan Laros]

Hi Mr. Sainsbury,

Very well put. I agree that the only way to keep this genus pure is to only breed with WC specimens (gravid females that is).

The catching site is very important data here and that is just what is missing most of the time. When you have a spider that is caught in Cameroon for example: how many Hysterocrates spp. are from Cameroon? You jus HAVE to be absolutely sure where the importer (or you) got it, before you even think about breeding.

I have no idea how the state of this species is in the wild. Are they all common or do they actually need help from us? When we want to breed them in the hobby, the wild caught specimens have to be distributed to dedicated breeders who are not after financial profit, but want to help to keep the species pure.

Regards,

Jan

 

[BakuBak]

Originally Posted by xenesthis
American buyer imports these and sells them as H. hercules. Spiderlings are grown up and 2-3 years later, hobbyists see the hind legs being a little longer and stronger than the front legs and the carapace seems elongated. Here is the classic problem we have had in the U.S. hobby for the last ten years. Mark Hart, Frank Somma, Bryant Capiz and myself have all experienced this situation. Did we deliberately deceive buyers by selling them as H. hercules? No. Did the European exporter? Probably not. Are all three, the American importer, the European exporter and the original European breeder all out to deceive hobbyists with this name? No

Yes , yes and yes - You all are guilty because if someone sells thing knowing that it is in 99% something else ( like with some perfumes on eBay or " original" T-shirts) he is cheating that's all

this hobby have that incredible thing - someone is selling(sending) something else then customer wonted and everyone are happy - sorry but thing that customer cant identify himself the spider is pour excuse for sending him something else that he PAID for !!!

if a diler don't gives guarantee on his stock being well-identified he can always put on his price list " sorry mate but i did not identified this spiders so I don't give guaranty that You'll get the stock for which You have paid me !! " or he may do something else he may put name " know taxon + sp. + 'your favorite pokemon name ' " - in hysterocrates hercules case it would look : Hysterocrates sp."hercules" 3rd option : use common names no one knows what they means so no one will be angry when gets something else that he thot he will

and don't say that " hobbyist will write H.hercules so who cares " because it is their right to call them like they wont but the diller is taking MONEY from them and it is HIS RESPONSIBILTY to send spider which was bought


I am saying this in gener - I have nothing against You ,wont buy from You because You are in US and I am in Poland so I have no reasons for attacking You , i am just discussing !! You show Your way of thinking and I am showing My way ...
In Poland I am also selling spiders and also had some little accidents with names but as soon someone pointed it to me I was instantly repairing errors and that's it ,I know that big dillers are always angry on this type of discussions because it means less money for them ( again not talking about You but about discussions from Poland with which I am more " at side " ) but some of them see the problem , try to have proper labeled sock even f it means lot of sp species and they live fine , even more they seal more because customers trust them more !!


best regards -nothing personal to anyone !!!

 

[Scolopeon]

All I can say is the spider in the second pic looks awesome..
Huge carapace on that thing.. very stocky and impressive look to it.

 

[M.F.Bagaturov]

Resuming all been told and I think most of us clearly realise it:
nobody can't tell for sure which species of Hysterocrates "the one" is, since so really knowlegable man over the world, experiensing in taxonomy can't specifying this.
So, Chris's statement is most unbiassed and objective in my opinion.
Thanks Mr. Sainsbury for wasting time to explane the situation

 

[Anthony]

Good information and pictures Chris. That second picture is one interesting spider, do you know her history ?

 

[Tescos]

All I can tell you is that it was a wild caught specimen that came out of Cameroon and was aquired by me at Stuttgart in March 2002. I did ask at the time about any collection details but as per norm (I find) the dealer was unable to say.
so not an awlful lot to go on.

 

[Steve Nunn]

Hi,
Another aspect of all tarantulas and one that certainly is applicable directly here is the ontogenetic developement of all Hysterocrates spp.

As a spider goes through various growth stages in it's life, it shows some traits in early development that were present in it's common ancestor, be it at a generic level, or even familial level. What you will note with many Hysterocrates are the swollen rear legs, in some species that character remains, in others (such as H.gigas) the rear leg losses it's swollen appearance as the spider ages. You can compare a young specimen to an old specimen (do this by looking at early instar exuvia from the same spider) and you will note this reduction in thickness of leg IV.

This is why it can be very difficult to reference early material from the turn of last century, particularly when the original description is done on an immature spider. Morphological features change between early instars and ultimate/postultimate instars.

Keep this in mind when you see a young Hysto with thick back legs, they may not be there when your spider reaches adulthood!!!

The implications of this are obvious.....

Cheers,
Steve