How many Ts can I/you keep communaly

[DaveM]

restricting space means territorial conflict over resources which typically results in cannibalism.
keeping them in close proximity I am guessing is in denial of their basic biology, which is why the close quarters experiments fail. I've yet to see one work long term with adults with results. That's why someone needs to do an experiment with a large enclosure.
If someone wants to send me to Socotra Island I will go do the research and find an average spacing for in the wild species

That's one line of thinking, which doesn't necessarily match keepers' experiences. Restricting space could, for example be working with their basic biology by prolonging the tolerance young spiderlings can have for each other while sharing the confined space of a burrow with restricted space. I think it is widely believed that sacmates kept in close proximity from hatching have a better chance of communal survival, than do strangers that have lived far apart being forced together. I'm not arguing in favor of keeping them communally, but one motivation to do so is to see behaviors unobservable unless they are living close together, such as communal feeding (sharing prey). Of course, behavior in captivity is not necessarily going to match how they may behave in the wild either. Another widely held belief, which is probably correct, is that it's best to keep communals well-fed, which could alleviate the conflict over resources you imagine (i.e. if resources are abundant, there need not be any conflict).

 

[cold blood]

I have raised balfouri alone many times...communally a couple.....there is a huge difference between the two IME.

Kept alone they are reclusive, poor eaters and slow growers...the opposite is the case when kept communally.

I know a breeder who simply wont separate and sell small slings because they don't do as well or grow as quickly.

 

[arthurliuyz]

None. Don't risk it - cannibalism still may occur.

 

[jrh3]

I have raised balfouri alone many times...communally a couple.....there is a huge difference between the two IME.

Kept alone they are reclusive, poor eaters and slow growers...the opposite is the case when kept communally.

I know a breeder who simply wont separate and sell small slings because they don't do as well or grow as quickly.

This is exactly my experience, they do better in groups in all aspects.

 

[Matt Man]

This is exactly my experience, they do better in groups in all aspects.

until they hit adulthood

That's one line of thinking, which doesn't necessarily match keepers' experiences. Restricting space could, for example be working with their basic biology by prolonging the tolerance young spiderlings can have for each other while sharing the confined space of a burrow with restricted space. I think it is widely believed that sacmates kept in close proximity from hatching have a better chance of communal survival, than do strangers that have lived far apart being forced together. I'm not arguing in favor of keeping them communally, but one motivation to do so is to see behaviors unobservable unless they are living close together, such as communal feeding (sharing prey). Of course, behavior in captivity is not necessarily going to match how they may behave in the wild either. Another widely held belief, which is probably correct, is that it's best to keep communals well-fed, which could alleviate the conflict over resources you imagine (i.e. if resources are abundant, there need not be any conflict).

yes, all is well and good as slings. It all tends to sour as they mature. Again, I have yet to hear of a long term adult communal success.

 

[DaveM]

yes, all is well and good as slings. It all tends to sour as they mature. Again, I have yet to hear of a long term adult communal success.

I have been skeptical also.
On the other hand, @jrh3 appears to be an excellent and reliable guy, and then there's @cold blood -- I tend to trust what he says, put a lot of faith in his opinions, though I don't know him personally. Maybe it's just that I've heard his real name starts with a letter D, which is extraordinarily wonderful! In fact, I could hardly imagine that a man could have a better first initial than D! That's just my biased opinion...

 

[Matt Man]

I have been skeptical also.
On the other hand, @jrh3 appears to be an excellent and reliable guy, and then there's @cold blood -- I tend to trust what he says, put a lot of faith in his opinions, though I don't know him personally. Maybe it's just that I've heard his real name starts with a letter D, which is extraordinarily wonderful! In fact, I could hardly imagine that a man could have a better first initial than D! That's just my biased opinion...

I trust lots of folks here. When I see a report of a successful communal of multiple adults that thrives for a couple years, I will change my opinion. I have seen too many start hopeful, and then disappear once the body count rises

 

[Tarantuland]

I trust lots of folks here. When I see a report of a successful communal of multiple adults that thrives for a couple years, I will change my opinion. I have seen too many start hopeful, and then disappear once the body count rises

Regarding only M Balfouri, I see a lot of people saying it doesn’t work, but few if any posts about having issues with adults or cannibalism. I hear a lot of people talk about these posts, but I haven’t seen them. And yes I’ve used the search function.

It’s kind of a frustrating argument because it *could* result in cannibalism…so then why keep tarantulas if you *could get bit*? I understand the dangers on the spider vs the keeper, but I really have almost never if ever seen people post about cannibalism in M Balfouri communals

 

[cold blood]

It’s kind of a frustrating argument because it *could* result in cannibalism

Right...I COULD die in a crash anytime I get on a plane...but this isn't proof that air travel isn't safe.

 

[jrh3]

until they hit adulthood

No difference in my experience as well and most people that keep them for multiple generations. You might get the occasional female trying to breed with other females but this could happen in the wild too.

The whole argument is, well they haven’t been proven communal in the wild. But thats the thing, we are keeping them in captivity, you can’t expect the same results as they were living in the wild.

This species is truly different, I had my doubts until I set up a few communals myself.

It is a good debate that I enjoy because seeing is believing with them. Just like aliens just because you haven’t seen them doesn’t me they don’t exist.

 

[Blue Jaye]

Hello everyon. I haven’t been on AB in a very long time but a friend asked me to add some knowledge to this post. So here goes. This is from my experience only so take it as you like. I have been keeping M.balfouri since 2009 at that time they were quite rare and costly around 250$ for a sling.. At that time I kept them individually. 2012 I started breeding them. 2013 i started studying them . Spending hours and hours watching their behavior day and night. This is what I have learned along the way.

M.balfouri do thrive better in a communal environment. The grow faster, eat much better, and thrive much better than they do as individuals. At this point I have kept them in small and large communals , as couples, in groups of 3 and individually. From my experience they do best when kept together. There is no need to confine them to a small space together to keep them from cannibalizing. And if you have to do that to keep a species communal. Then it’s NOT a communal species. Balfouri will always choose to be together no matter how much space they have there is always a communal den that most adults live in together with slings and juveniles coming and going.

M.balfouri can be kept in very large enclosures with very large numbers with no losses. I have indeed seen a case or two of cannibalism and I have found each time for there to be something wrong with the specimen that was being eaten. I have watched them fight over food I’ve never heard each other. I have watched males fight over females and never hurt each other. I have watched females vie for territory and never hurt each other.. There can always be cases for cannibalism but with M.balfouri it is extremely rare and in some cases caused by the keepers themselves by not providing food or water for long periods of time and even then they will almost starve before they cannibalize.
The other case is trying to add individuals that have been kept single for long periods of time. They Haven’t been exposed to the constant touching and are used to being alon with only prey entering their environment. So naturally putting them in a communal wouled be overwhelming and stressful.

M.balfouri seem to have a language through touch. They are constantly talking to each other and seem to have favorites with whom they hang out with. There are so many things that I can tell you about but this would end up being a 10 pages lol.
Also I think it’s important to point out that taking babies from mom under an inch to inch and a half isn’t a good idea. Here’s why. The mom feeds and spends time making a safe environment for her fragile young and balfouri are very fragile in the first few instars. Mom breaks down their food which also has her digestive juices in it. She will continue to feed them till they are at least an inc. If you put more than one food item or many as trying to feed babies individually. She will collect all the food and begin to break it down for then even when they are at an inch or more. I believe that this is the reason that they do not do well when they are taken from their mom and a smaller size. I have had so many people contact me and say I got these 1/4 in or 1/2 in balfouri slings and they are dying off. Or just not eating or growing well. Which will always be the case when they are taken too small. I have for years now trying to tell breeders and sellers to please keep them with their mom until they’re at least an inch. But alas money always wins. There are a few out there that do myself included as I won’t sell anything under an inch and to be honest there usually almost 2 inches by the time I do because I have so many commurals.

i’m trying to make sure I touch base on all of the things that were in this thread of questions if I’ve missed anything you can feel free to reach out to me and let me. The last thing I will talk about is inbreeding. This is something I simply do not do. It is very easy to remove males right before they mature as they are already showing signs that they are male or you can remove them right after they mature and that is usually the best time because they are v easily caught while roaming. Also when you see imma males looking like they are trying to breed with earth other. This is not actually the case. Like all animals in nature they are practicing their moves.

this knowledge comes from experience only and hours and hours of research and study of this particular species. If I can ever help anybody in anyway please feel free to reach out. I hope that this was helpful.

 

[jrh3]

Hello everyon. I haven’t been on AB in a very long time but a friend asked me to add some knowledge to this post. So here goes. This is from my experience only so take it as you like. I have been keeping M.balfouri since 2009 at that time they were quite rare and costly around 250$ for a sling.. At that time I kept them individually. 2012 I started breeding them. 2013 i started studying them . Spending hours and hours watching their behavior day and night. This is what I have learned along the way.

M.balfouri do thrive better in a communal environment. The grow faster, eat much better, and thrive much better than they do as individuals. At this point I have kept them in small and large communals , as couples, in groups of 3 and individually. From my experience they do best when kept together. There is no need to confine them to a small space together to keep them from cannibalizing. And if you have to do that to keep a species communal. Then it’s NOT a communal species. Balfouri will always choose to be together no matter how much space they have there is always a communal den that most adults live in together with slings and juveniles coming and going.

M.balfouri can be kept in very large enclosures with very large numbers with no losses. I have indeed seen a case or two of cannibalism and I have found each time for there to be something wrong with the specimen that was being eaten. I have watched them fight over food I’ve never heard each other. I have watched males fight over females and never hurt each other. I have watched females vie for territory and never hurt each other.. There can always be cases for cannibalism but with M.balfouri it is extremely rare and in some cases caused by the keepers themselves by not providing food or water for long periods of time and even then they will almost starve before they cannibalize.
The other case is trying to add individuals that have been kept single for long periods of time. They Haven’t been exposed to the constant touching and are used to being alon with only prey entering their environment. So naturally putting them in a communal wouled be overwhelming and stressful.

M.balfouri seem to have a language through touch. They are constantly talking to each other and seem to have favorites with whom they hang out with. There are so many things that I can tell you about but this would end up being a 10 pages lol.
Also I think it’s important to point out that taking babies from mom under an inch to inch and a half isn’t a good idea. Here’s why. The mom feeds and spends time making a safe environment for her fragile young and balfouri are very fragile in the first few instars. Mom breaks down their food which also has her digestive juices in it. She will continue to feed them till they are at least an inc. If you put more than one food item or many as trying to feed babies individually. She will collect all the food and begin to break it down for then even when they are at an inch or more. I believe that this is the reason that they do not do well when they are taken from their mom and a smaller size. I have had so many people contact me and say I got these 1/4 in or 1/2 in balfouri slings and they are dying off. Or just not eating or growing well. Which will always be the case when they are taken too small. I have for years now trying to tell breeders and sellers to please keep them with their mom until they’re at least an inch. But alas money always wins. There are a few out there that do myself included as I won’t sell anything under an inch and to be honest there usually almost 2 inches by the time I do because I have so many commurals.

i’m trying to make sure I touch base on all of the things that were in this thread of questions if I’ve missed anything you can feel free to reach out to me and let me. The last thing I will talk about is inbreeding. This is something I simply do not do. It is very easy to remove males right before they mature as they are already showing signs that they are male or you can remove them right after they mature and that is usually the best time because they are v easily caught while roaming. Also when you see imma males looking like they are trying to breed with earth other. This is not actually the case. Like all animals in nature they are practicing their moves.

this knowledge comes from experience only and hours and hours of research and study of this particular species. If I can ever help anybody in anyway please feel free to reach out. I hope that this was helpful.

Thanks for chiming in. I forgot you were still around here, lol. Good to hear your still around.

I remember back when I was skeptical about communal balfouri and reached out to you. Since that day your info has been eye opening with them for me. Great info.

 

[Blue Jaye]

Thanks for chiming in. I forgot you were still around here, lol. Good to hear your still around.

I remember back when I was skeptical about communal balfouri and reached out to you. Since that day your info has been eye opening with them for me. Great info.

Ya I’m still around lol. Just not on the boards often. I’m so glad my info has helped you! If you ever need or you just wanna chat feel free to PM me.

 

[SunRoseSpider]

Hello everyon. I haven’t been on AB in a very long time but a friend asked me to add some knowledge to this post. So here goes. This is from my experience only so take it as you like. I have been keeping M.balfouri since 2009 at that time they were quite rare and costly around 250$ for a sling.. At that time I kept them individually. 2012 I started breeding them. 2013 i started studying them . Spending hours and hours watching their behavior day and night. This is what I have learned along the way.

M.balfouri do thrive better in a communal environment. The grow faster, eat much better, and thrive much better than they do as individuals. At this point I have kept them in small and large communals , as couples, in groups of 3 and individually. From my experience they do best when kept together. There is no need to confine them to a small space together to keep them from cannibalizing. And if you have to do that to keep a species communal. Then it’s NOT a communal species. Balfouri will always choose to be together no matter how much space they have there is always a communal den that most adults live in together with slings and juveniles coming and going.

M.balfouri can be kept in very large enclosures with very large numbers with no losses. I have indeed seen a case or two of cannibalism and I have found each time for there to be something wrong with the specimen that was being eaten. I have watched them fight over food I’ve never heard each other. I have watched males fight over females and never hurt each other. I have watched females vie for territory and never hurt each other.. There can always be cases for cannibalism but with M.balfouri it is extremely rare and in some cases caused by the keepers themselves by not providing food or water for long periods of time and even then they will almost starve before they cannibalize.
The other case is trying to add individuals that have been kept single for long periods of time. They Haven’t been exposed to the constant touching and are used to being alon with only prey entering their environment. So naturally putting them in a communal wouled be overwhelming and stressful.

M.balfouri seem to have a language through touch. They are constantly talking to each other and seem to have favorites with whom they hang out with. There are so many things that I can tell you about but this would end up being a 10 pages lol.
Also I think it’s important to point out that taking babies from mom under an inch to inch and a half isn’t a good idea. Here’s why. The mom feeds and spends time making a safe environment for her fragile young and balfouri are very fragile in the first few instars. Mom breaks down their food which also has her digestive juices in it. She will continue to feed them till they are at least an inc. If you put more than one food item or many as trying to feed babies individually. She will collect all the food and begin to break it down for then even when they are at an inch or more. I believe that this is the reason that they do not do well when they are taken from their mom and a smaller size. I have had so many people contact me and say I got these 1/4 in or 1/2 in balfouri slings and they are dying off. Or just not eating or growing well. Which will always be the case when they are taken too small. I have for years now trying to tell breeders and sellers to please keep them with their mom until they’re at least an inch. But alas money always wins. There are a few out there that do myself included as I won’t sell anything under an inch and to be honest there usually almost 2 inches by the time I do because I have so many commurals.

i’m trying to make sure I touch base on all of the things that were in this thread of questions if I’ve missed anything you can feel free to reach out to me and let me. The last thing I will talk about is inbreeding. This is something I simply do not do. It is very easy to remove males right before they mature as they are already showing signs that they are male or you can remove them right after they mature and that is usually the best time because they are v easily caught while roaming. Also when you see imma males looking like they are trying to breed with earth other. This is not actually the case. Like all animals in nature they are practicing their moves.

this knowledge comes from experience only and hours and hours of research and study of this particular species. If I can ever help anybody in anyway please feel free to reach out. I hope that this was helpful.

Hi! I was recently talking in a thread about M balfouri and coldblood mentioned your experience with them.

I had been trying to find academic literature on M balfouri but it came up short. Only 5 Theraphosid species seem to have been documented and 2 showed social behaviours (N incei and H gigas).

I'd love to hear more about your experience as I had always been of the belief that tarantulas are just instinctual and don't do anything emotive, but the description you provided about observing them interact with eachother has made question if this is perhaps not the case, and that they can form some kind of familial bonds with eachother and become dependable.

I've researched a lot on this site about them and I've seen a mixture of both communal success stories and people that have lost Ts to cannibalism, though you mention how this could simply be the fault of the keeper, so I'm inclined to be more open minded about the possibility of a tarantula actually being communal. I am a novice keeper myself so I personally wouldn't want to take a risk of keeping a communal at this time and doing possibly something wrong to result in losses. I'd still love to learn more, though.

Do let me know if you would be open to having a discussion/PM as I have a few questions about this

 

[Jonathan6303]

Hello everyon. I haven’t been on AB in a very long time but a friend asked me to add some knowledge to this post. So here goes. This is from my experience only so take it as you like. I have been keeping M.balfouri since 2009 at that time they were quite rare and costly around 250$ for a sling.. At that time I kept them individually. 2012 I started breeding them. 2013 i started studying them . Spending hours and hours watching their behavior day and night. This is what I have learned along the way.

M.balfouri do thrive better in a communal environment. The grow faster, eat much better, and thrive much better than they do as individuals. At this point I have kept them in small and large communals , as couples, in groups of 3 and individually. From my experience they do best when kept together. There is no need to confine them to a small space together to keep them from cannibalizing. And if you have to do that to keep a species communal. Then it’s NOT a communal species. Balfouri will always choose to be together no matter how much space they have there is always a communal den that most adults live in together with slings and juveniles coming and going.

M.balfouri can be kept in very large enclosures with very large numbers with no losses. I have indeed seen a case or two of cannibalism and I have found each time for there to be something wrong with the specimen that was being eaten. I have watched them fight over food I’ve never heard each other. I have watched males fight over females and never hurt each other. I have watched females vie for territory and never hurt each other.. There can always be cases for cannibalism but with M.balfouri it is extremely rare and in some cases caused by the keepers themselves by not providing food or water for long periods of time and even then they will almost starve before they cannibalize.
The other case is trying to add individuals that have been kept single for long periods of time. They Haven’t been exposed to the constant touching and are used to being alon with only prey entering their environment. So naturally putting them in a communal wouled be overwhelming and stressful.

M.balfouri seem to have a language through touch. They are constantly talking to each other and seem to have favorites with whom they hang out with. There are so many things that I can tell you about but this would end up being a 10 pages lol.
Also I think it’s important to point out that taking babies from mom under an inch to inch and a half isn’t a good idea. Here’s why. The mom feeds and spends time making a safe environment for her fragile young and balfouri are very fragile in the first few instars. Mom breaks down their food which also has her digestive juices in it. She will continue to feed them till they are at least an inc. If you put more than one food item or many as trying to feed babies individually. She will collect all the food and begin to break it down for then even when they are at an inch or more. I believe that this is the reason that they do not do well when they are taken from their mom and a smaller size. I have had so many people contact me and say I got these 1/4 in or 1/2 in balfouri slings and they are dying off. Or just not eating or growing well. Which will always be the case when they are taken too small. I have for years now trying to tell breeders and sellers to please keep them with their mom until they’re at least an inch. But alas money always wins. There are a few out there that do myself included as I won’t sell anything under an inch and to be honest there usually almost 2 inches by the time I do because I have so many commurals.

i’m trying to make sure I touch base on all of the things that were in this thread of questions if I’ve missed anything you can feel free to reach out to me and let me. The last thing I will talk about is inbreeding. This is something I simply do not do. It is very easy to remove males right before they mature as they are already showing signs that they are male or you can remove them right after they mature and that is usually the best time because they are v easily caught while roaming. Also when you see imma males looking like they are trying to breed with earth other. This is not actually the case. Like all animals in nature they are practicing their moves.

this knowledge comes from experience only and hours and hours of research and study of this particular species. If I can ever help anybody in anyway please feel free to reach out. I hope that this was helpful.

I read you comment and I am really interested in the information you uncovered. You said that the m balfouri which live together thrived more then those which lived alone. Do you have a comparison of individual growth and communal growth.

 

[DaveM]

Do let me know if you would be open to having a discussion/PM as I have a few questions about this

@ediand, I'm sure these people with experience keeping balfouri communally will be glad to discuss further with you right here -- this is the perfect place -- and I think they will answer your questions openly here as well; no need for PMs. Some kinds of cohabitations are shameful and could lead to harmful consequences if discussed on a public forum, such as my wife finding out how many of my girlfriends have been living with me while she was away traveling, but discussing spiders living together is just fine to talk about right here

 

[Jonathan6303]

@ediand, I'm sure these people with experience keeping balfouri communally will be glad to discuss further with you right here -- this is the perfect place -- and I think they will answer your questions openly here as well; no need for PMs. Some kinds of cohabitations are shameful and could lead to harmful consequences if discussed on a public forum, such as my wife finding out how many of my girlfriends have been living with me while she was away traveling, but discussing spiders living together is just fine to talk about right here

I truly hope your joking

 

[Wolfram1]

@ediand, I'm sure these people with experience keeping balfouri communally will be glad to discuss further with you right here -- this is the perfect place -- and I think they will answer your questions openly here as well; no need for PMs. Some kinds of cohabitations are shameful and could lead to harmful consequences if discussed on a public forum, such as my wife finding out how many of my girlfriends have been living with me while she was away traveling, but discussing spiders living together is just fine to talk about right here

, agreed.

I was reminded that i wanted to ask you @Blue Jaye something as well.

I have indeed seen a case or two of cannibalism and I have found each time for there to be something wrong with the specimen that was being eaten.

Why did you think that? Do you still remember? I am asking since my friends observations of cannibalism with his M. balfouri offspring were clearly not in support of this idea.
And yet he has also mostly made very good experiences with his original communal.

 

[Jonathan6303]

observations of cannibalism with his M. balfouri offspring were clearly not in support of this idea.
And yet he has also mostly made very good experiences with his original communal.

Did your friend put two different egg sacs together

 

[Wolfram1]

Did your friend put two different egg sacs together

No, he rehoused his communal (2 males, 6 females) and shortly after 2 sacks were layed, about a week apart.

He took the first one out and incubated it seperately until they hatched. The second one he was planning on hatching in the communal, as there have been cases were this was successful however it was eaten after a few days.