How many Ts can I/you keep communaly

[Jonathan6303]

No, he rehoused his communal (2 males, 6 females) and shortly after 2 sacks were layed, about a week apart.

He took the first one out and incubated it seperately until they hatched. The second one he was planning on hatching in the communal, as there have been cases were this was successful however it was eaten after a few days.

I see. I’ve heard of that problem too

 

[SunRoseSpider]

@ediand, I'm sure these people with experience keeping balfouri communally will be glad to discuss further with you right here -- this is the perfect place -- and I think they will answer your questions openly here as well; no need for PMs. Some kinds of cohabitations are shameful and could lead to harmful consequences if discussed on a public forum, such as my wife finding out how many of my girlfriends have been living with me while she was away traveling, but discussing spiders living together is just fine to talk about right here

No problem!

1) It's been documented about wild spiders that part of the reason for cohabitation is to help hunt for prey. Is this factor not made redundant in captivity since food is provided by us as necessary? Do they still need to depend on eachother in the same if they aren't having to go through the trouble of seeking food themselves?

2) Is providing prekill prey to spiderlings mimicking what a tarantula mother would do, or is it something else? And does that help them to grow better by having the mother around for longer to help with feeding? That type of behaviour is observed a lot in mammalian species, so it would be interesting to find if inverts can be like that too.

3) Do you think tarantula siblings can form some type of bond with one another which prevents them from cannibalism? I had assumed cannibalism to be inevitable and unpreventable for most every spider.

4) Similarly is it possible to raise a group of siblings to adulthood with no losses, then remove MMs (to prevent inbreeding) and have the females live together for the rest of their lives without them cannibalising? Has that been observed in any of your experiences?

5) When you have adult females, is it safe to reintroduce them back into the communal or must they now stay with their eggsac and spiderlings and not return to their siblings at any point? Like do they have to stay in a new enclosure now or can they stay and raise their spiderlings with their siblings after breeding? I've heard a lot about how even a short period of separation (such as when delivering) can disrupt the social dynamic.

6) Would it not be better to keep them separated as soon as they're able to completely remove to the cannibalism risk and have, say 5 guaranteed healthy tarantulas, OR is it better for them to be together because their temperament is social and that's how they thrive even if that does unfortunately mean some losses?

7) Finally, you describe M balfouri as being more recluse when living in solitary, but isn't this just the normal/expected behaviour of any T species? I can appreciate how this is a downside for the keeper since we want to see our tarantulas, but the hermit behaviour has been documented as ideal for them and is part of the reason tarantulas have survived in the wild for as long as they have. It has me sceptical that the communal aspect could just be a myth for the benefit of the keeper, at the the detriment to the spiders, just so they can see them more. But do correct me if this is wrong!

 

[Wolfram1]

Its not just siblings that tolerate/ show possibly "social" behavior towards each other. The communal of my friend consists of 3 different bloodlines and he has never had any case of cannibalism or friction amongst them.

Which is why we were so suprised about the cannibalism in their offspring.

 

[Blue Jaye]

Hey guys I’ve been out town. I will get back to the thread tomorow.

 

[Edan bandoot]

there's a breeder that has a couple hundred in one tank.

 

[Jonathan6303]

there's a breeder that has a couple hundred in one tank.

UrbanT?

 

[Edan bandoot]

UrbanT?

yes

 

[Blue Jaye]

Hi! I was recently talking in a thread about M balfouri and coldblood mentioned your experience with them.

I had been trying to find academic literature on M balfouri but it came up short. Only 5 Theraphosid species seem to have been documented and 2 showed social behaviours (N incei and H gigas).

I'd love to hear more about your experience as I had always been of the belief that tarantulas are just instinctual and don't do anything emotive, but the description you provided about observing them interact with eachother has made question if this is perhaps not the case, and that they can form some kind of familial bonds with eachother and become dependable.

I've researched a lot on this site about them and I've seen a mixture of both communal success stories and people that have lost Ts to cannibalism, though you mention how this could simply be the fault of the keeper, so I'm inclined to be more open minded about the possibility of a tarantula actually being communal. I am a novice keeper myself so I personally wouldn't want to take a risk of keeping a communal at this time and doing possibly something wrong to result in losses. I'd still love to learn more, though.

Do let me know if you would be open to having a discussion/PM as I have a few questions about this

Sure just pm me and leave a contact # and we can chat

That's one line of thinking, which doesn't necessarily match keepers' experiences. Restricting space could, for example be working with their basic biology by prolonging the tolerance young spiderlings can have for each other while sharing the confined space of a burrow with restricted space. I think it is widely believed that sacmates kept in close proximity from hatching have a better chance of communal survival, than do strangers that have lived far apart being forced together. I'm not arguing in favor of keeping them communally, but one motivation to do so is to see behaviors unobservable unless they are living close together, such as communal feeding (sharing prey). Of course, behavior in captivity is not necessarily going to match how they may behave in the wild either. Another widely held belief, which is probably correct, is that it's best to keep communals well-fed, which could alleviate the conflict over resources you imagine (i.e. if resources are abundant, there need not be any conflict).

If you have to restrict territory to keep them together for longer . It’s a clear sign they are not a communal species. Rather they are being forced to survive they way. Balfouri on the other hand you can give them as much space as you want. The only thing that tends to go wrong with that is generally you see them less when provided with proper amount of substrate and large housing.

No problem!

1) It's been documented about wild spiders that part of the reason for cohabitation is to help hunt for prey. Is this factor not made redundant in captivity since food is provided by us as necessary? Do they still need to depend on eachother in the same if they aren't having to go through the trouble of seeking food themselves?

2) Is providing prekill prey to spiderlings mimicking what a tarantula mother would do, or is it something else? And does that help them to grow better by having the mother around for longer to help with feeding? That type of behaviour is observed a lot in mammalian species, so it would be interesting to find if inverts can be like that too.

3) Do you think tarantula siblings can form some type of bond with one another which prevents them from cannibalism? I had assumed cannibalism to be inevitable and unpreventable for most every spider.

4) Similarly is it possible to raise a group of siblings to adulthood with no losses, then remove MMs (to prevent inbreeding) and have the females live together for the rest of their lives without them cannibalising? Has that been observed in any of your experiences?

5) When you have adult females, is it safe to reintroduce them back into the communal or must they now stay with their eggsac and spiderlings and not return to their siblings at any point? Like do they have to stay in a new enclosure now or can they stay and raise their spiderlings with their siblings after breeding? I've heard a lot about how even a short period of separation (such as when delivering) can disrupt the social dynamic.

6) Would it not be better to keep them separated as soon as they're able to completely remove to the cannibalism risk and have, say 5 guaranteed healthy tarantulas, OR is it better for them to be together because their temperament is social and that's how they thrive even if that does unfortunately mean some losses?

7) Finally, you describe M balfouri as being more recluse when living in solitary, but isn't this just the normal/expected behaviour of any T species? I can appreciate how this is a downside for the keeper since we want to see our tarantulas, but the hermit behaviour has been documented as ideal for them and is part of the reason tarantulas have survived in the wild for as long as they have. It has me sceptical that the communal aspect could just be a myth for the benefit of the keeper, at the the detriment to the spiders, just so they can see them more. But do correct me if this is wrong!

I’m going to kind of sum up. Balfouri absolutely do better when they are together. When you separate them from their mom at too small of a size they do not grow properly. Their growth rate is extremely slow and they don’t eat very well and their death rate is a lot higher. When they are kept with their mom for a proper amount of time which is generally beyond an inch. They thrive grow extremely fast comparatively and eat very well. And yes they do form bonds with each other. I recently had a juvenile female that I had separated from the communal to sell. The person ended up not getting her. And I had not had time to reha house her right away. So she was in temporary closure for about two months.. I finally re-introduced her to her siblings and she was greeted happily by the seven females that were in there. In a communal situation I feel that it is always best to separate the males so that there is not inbreeding and they are not stressing out the females with constant asks of pairing. When you see males engaging in breeding behavisor . It is the same as any other species that engage in practice play . It is just that. They are practicing for future pairings when they are mature. That right there suggests communal living.

 

[Wolfram1]

Hey Blue Jaye,

I was reminded that i wanted to ask you @Blue Jaye something as well.

I have indeed seen a case or two of cannibalism and I have found each time for there to be something wrong with the specimen that was being eaten.

Why did you think that? Do you still remember? I am asking since my friends observations of cannibalism with his M. balfouri offspring were clearly not in support of this idea.
And yet he has also mostly made very good experiences with his original communal.

Did you miss my question? We can also chat about it privately if you want, i do have some others.

your PM inbox is full...

MfG, Wolfram

 

[SunRoseSpider]

Sure just pm me and leave a contact # and we can chat

your PM inbox is full...

MfG, Wolfram

Hi, I've not been able to send a PM either as I got the same error about your inbox being full, but you've pretty much answered all my questions here, so thank you for that!

 

[Pmurinushmacla]

I keep and always have kept my 1 M.balfouri solitary, and she acts like any other T in my collection. I have a feeling people get the wrong idea by sellers that M.balfouris HAVE to be kept together . If you don't have space, just get one and keep it that way.

The other thing that would put me off of M.balfouri communals, other than cannibalism, the thing that no one mentions, would be uncontrolled breeding. Imagine raising 5-10 balfouris to adulthood, only to find your enclosure filled with tiny slings one morning. I would not want to deal with that

Iirc tom moran observed siblings attempting to mate in his communal. Dont remember why, but it wasn't successful. I think the males matured faster and so they were attempting to mate with immature females.

restricting space means territorial conflict over resources which typically results in cannibalism.
keeping them in close proximity I am guessing is in denial of their basic biology, which is why the close quarters experiments fail. I've yet to see one work long term with adults with results. That's why someone needs to do an experiment with a large enclosure.
If someone wants to send me to Socotra Island I will go do the research and find an average spacing for in the wild species

If nobody has said this yet, pretty sure there are communals with "close" proximity that had no cannibalism. Tom moran's comes to mind.

Sure just pm me and leave a contact # and we can chat


If you have to restrict territory to keep them together for longer . It’s a clear sign they are not a communal species. Rather they are being forced to survive they way. Balfouri on the other hand you can give them as much space as you want. The only thing that tends to go wrong with that is generally you see them less when provided with proper amount of substrate and large housing.


I’m going to kind of sum up. Balfouri absolutely do better when they are together. When you separate them from their mom at too small of a size they do not grow properly. Their growth rate is extremely slow and they don’t eat very well and their death rate is a lot higher. When they are kept with their mom for a proper amount of time which is generally beyond an inch. They thrive grow extremely fast comparatively and eat very well. And yes they do form bonds with each other. I recently had a juvenile female that I had separated from the communal to sell. The person ended up not getting her. And I had not had time to reha house her right away. So she was in temporary closure for about two months.. I finally re-introduced her to her siblings and she was greeted happily by the seven females that were in there. In a communal situation I feel that it is always best to separate the males so that there is not inbreeding and they are not stressing out the females with constant asks of pairing. When you see males engaging in breeding behavisor . It is the same as any other species that engage in practice play . It is just that. They are practicing for future pairings when they are mature. That right there suggests communal living.

I disagree with the "bonds" point. Tarantulas most certainly do not have the capability to "bond" with their siblings, in the emotional sense. Sure they might be able to recognize individuals in their group, however that doesn't mean they have the emotional capabilities to bond with them.

 

[Richard McJimsey]

I have raised balfouri alone many times...communally a couple.....there is a huge difference between the two IME.

Kept alone they are reclusive, poor eaters and slow growers...the opposite is the case when kept communally.

I know a breeder who simply wont separate and sell small slings because they don't do as well or grow as quickly.

That can't be the case, so many people on here said otherwise! /s

 

[Jonathan6303]

@Blue Jaye
1. What is the longest time you have had slings, juvies, or adults taken away and later reintroduced?
2. Have you had communals which lasted the entire lifespan of a female adult?
3. How many communals have you had and/or witnessed?
4. Do you possibly have a recorded communal from slings?
5. Does your success outweigh your losses or have you had no losses?
6. Would you consider this behavior adaptation or normal?
7. How long have you let a communal not feed and if a communal is not regularly fed will it result in cannibalism?
8. Have you witnessed any bonding behavior, such as offering another food, between this species in a communal.
Sorry to load you with so many questions.

I cool experiment would be housing a female in a very large enclosure, having her mate and when the spiderlings hatch see if they ever disperse and if they do, will they live all together, will they live in groups, or will they try to live separate. Although this would be really hard to manage.

 

[Blue Jaye]

, agreed.

I was reminded that i wanted to ask you @Blue Jaye something as well.



Why did you think that? Do you still remember? I am asking since my friends observations of cannibalism with his M. balfouri offspring were clearly not in support of this idea.
And yet he has also mostly made very good experiences with his original communal.

I did indeed miss this question. Both instances of slings being cannibalized were 2 separate slings that were separated from the group and looking weak. Both times I found the siblings eat a sling in the spot the separate sling was. I don’t know if they waited till the sling passed or before. A long time ago when I had my first balfouri pair living together for several years i witnessed my male getting weaker and my femal sat with him for days . on his last evening when he looked as if he had passed she was still sitting next to him and later that night she ate him. Let me know if that answers your quest.

@Blue Jaye
1. What is the longest time you have had slings, juvies, or adults taken away and later reintroduced?
2. Have you had communals which lasted the entire lifespan of a female adult?
3. How many communals have you had and/or witnessed?
4. Do you possibly have a recorded communal from slings?
5. Does your success outweigh your losses or have you had no losses?
6. Would you consider this behavior adaptation or normal?
7. How long have you let a communal not feed and if a communal is not regularly fed will it result in cannibalism?
8. Have you witnessed any bonding behavior, such as offering another food, between this species in a communal.
Sorry to load you with so many questions.

I cool experiment would be housing a female in a very large enclosure, having her mate and when the spiderlings hatch see if they ever disperse and if they do, will they live all together, will they live in groups, or will they try to live separate. Although this would be really hard to manage.

1. Several years ago I separated 2 females at 3 inches from their communal. They grew into adults and were paired. Both raised slings to 2 inches which is when their babies went to new homes. They live singular for about 3 months. At that time I was rehousing the communal they were originally from. Introduction went very smoothly. The 5 previous females and the 2 separated spent about an hour or so touching and huddling close to one another. Eventually they started roaming and separated. After treating the ground like lava for a couple days due to new sub. They all ended up living together in the same spot.
2. Yes several.
3. 50 or so different communals . And still have several of my originals. I have legion of balfouri.
4. Yes
5. Success definitely outweighs the losses. 4 losses in 12 years. 2 slings that failed to thrive and we’re eaten by siblings. 1 juvie female that was never okay after a molt Just didn’t eat. 1 male was ganged up on by several females do to constant pestering. I now always remove mature males for that reason and possible inbreeding.
6. Seems to be normal as they thrive so much better together. But that’s just my experience. Which is about 12 yea with this species.
7. I have had several communals go for 2-3 months with out food with sizes ranging from 2 inch to adult. That being said they are predators and will only go hungry for so long before survival kicks in. But I haven’t had it happen over hunger as of yet and its not like I inten to starve them to find out their limit.
8.Yes many many times. Food offerings, cuddling, preference over one another, scouting , I’ve seen a lot of unique behavior from balfouri.
9. What you consider an experiment. Is something I do all the time.
10. I’ve noticed slings just don’t leave mothers webbing. I have raised many from sac to 2+ inches in critter keepers. Something they could very easily get out of. Never had one leave. I’m not saying try this. I have a sealed T room so escapes are contained when they happen.
I have witn that behavior as well. And now it’s been a few times. Were I kept a mail and female together as a pair. When the males start to pass the females hang out with them till they pass and then eat them after. It seems like they are comforting the male. im not saying that’s what’s happening but it sure looks that way.
Hope this helps.

That can't be the case, so many people on here said otherwise! /s

From what I can tell it’s the case most of the time. Single balfouri just don’t seem to thrive as well. They eat less grow slower,are skittish and pissy. Completely different behavior from one’s that are together. They eat well , grow much faster , and are much less skittish.

 

[Wolfram1]

I am sure in all that time you must have seperated a few sacks early on, rather than leaving them with the mother, right?

If you did, what were the differences in behavior, growth, etc.?


Me and my friend are fairly certain that heavy cannibalism starts during the 3rd Larval stage and is normal, as it happens before the mother would usually open the sack.

3-4 Larvae would eat one other together. He told me in his observation he noticed that it seemed to start at random and that often the initiating larvae was already well fed, possibly indicating one with a larger prey drive rather than a weakness of the eaten one.

At this time prekilled prey was offered ofc. and easily accessible to the larvae.
This was ignored for about a week in favour of cannibalising siblings.

3 Larvae in L2 died in this time of "natural" causes and were ignored as well.

At fist they it sermed they were only attacking ones still in L2 but soon it became apparent that was not the case. They would attack whatever was closest rather than "weak" members. As more and more Larvae reached L3 these fell victim as well and he even observed several L3 eating one of the freshly molted spiderlings.

Now in all fairness from 100 eggs, 92 were fertile and developed. Almost half (~40) of them were cannibalised during L3. As more and more spiders reached N1 no cannibalism was observed amongst them and even the remaining L3 started accepting prekilled prey.

However 2 cases of cannibalism (also more likely random, rather than targetting weak links) were observed during N2. After which point close observation becomes impossible since they started digging. They are doing well and are now around N4-N5.


A long time breeder of M. balfouri mentioned that he always leaves the sack with the mother and that usually around 40 of them hatch, and the maximum number was 50. In my opinion this is most likely also the result of cannibalism that occurs while still inside the sack.

"Dies ist selbstverständlich eine reine Vermutung und kein Fakt. Plausibel erscheint es mir aber, denn viel mehr als 40 Jungtiere hatte ich auch nie. Ich glaube Rekord war so 50 Stück."


How many slings do you guys usually have survive into N1?

If you do not factor in cannibalism pre emergence from the cocoon there were probably only 2-3 cases of cannibalism that "count".


hope this gives you all something to think about

 

[Richard McJimsey]

From what I can tell it’s the case most of the time. Single balfouri just don’t seem to thrive as well. They eat less grow slower,are skittish and pissy. Completely different behavior from one’s that are together. They eat well , grow much faster , and are much less skittish.

I know, I was just being sarcastic and making fun of the bandwagon mentality of some people here.

 

[Blue Jaye]

I am sure in all that time you must have seperated a few sacks early on, rather than leaving them with the mother, right?

If you did, what were the differences in behavior, growth, etc.?


Me and my friend are fairly certain that heavy cannibalism starts during the 3rd Larval stage and is normal, as it happens before the mother would usually open the sack.

3-4 Larvae would eat one other together. He told me in his observation he noticed that it seemed to start at random and that often the initiating larvae was already well fed, possibly indicating one with a larger prey drive rather than a weakness of the eaten one.

At this time prekilled prey was offered ofc. and easily accessible to the larvae.
This was ignored for about a week in favour of cannibalising siblings.

3 Larvae in L2 died in this time of "natural" causes and were ignored as well.

At fist they it sermed they were only attacking ones still in L2 but soon it became apparent that was not the case. They would attack whatever was closest rather than "weak" members. As more and more Larvae reached L3 these fell victim as well and he even observed several L3 eating one of the freshly molted spiderlings.

Now in all fairness from 100 eggs, 92 were fertile and developed. Almost half (~40) of them were cannibalised during L3. As more and more spiders reached N1 no cannibalism was observed amongst them and even the remaining L3 started accepting prekilled prey.

However 2 cases of cannibalism (also more likely random, rather than targetting weak links) were observed during N2. After which point close observation becomes impossible since they started digging. They are doing well and are now around N4-N5.


A long time breeder of M. balfouri mentioned that he always leaves the sack with the mother and that usually around 40 of them hatch, and the maximum number was 50. In my opinion this is most likely also the result of cannibalism that occurs while still inside the sack.

"Dies ist selbstverständlich eine reine Vermutung und kein Fakt. Plausibel erscheint es mir aber, denn viel mehr als 40 Jungtiere hatte ich auch nie. Ich glaube Rekord war so 50 Stück."


How many slings do you guys usually have survive into N1?

If you do not factor in cannibalism pre emergence from the cocoon there were probably only 2-3 cases of cannibalism that "count".


hope this gives you all something to think about

Well in all honesty my first sac was a surprise. The female had taken a long time to drop and I had actually given up.. Looked in there to see teeny tiny white babies that I immediately separated because I didn’t know any better at the time. They took so long to grow I lost about half of them. There was 98 in total. they just didn’t thrive well due to the fact that I had just taken them from the Mom. It always comes back to the same thing if the sack is taken from the Mom or the babies are taken to young they fail to thrive as well. And it’s quite a big difference.

my question for you is how are you are you experiencing this larval stage in the sac.

 

[Wolfram1]

my question for you is how are you are you experiencing this larval stage in the sac.

Ah mb, i didn't phrase that well, they were incubated in an opened sack from very early on to the EWL stage, from then on they were incubated outside the sack. We just found, from looking at pictures that the timing of the normal sack opening corresponds pretty much with the point were they stopped preferring cannibalism over the pre-killed prey items.

Right when the first ones are about to reach N1. Before that he offered them a variety of pre-killed prey items, cut up for easy access and they ignored them all in favour of cannibalising siblings. He even tried a flightless fruit-fly in case it was the movement, with no luck. The correspondence of the timing is very much still an assumption as we have not had the second sack survive to compare it in person.