HOT species

[ShadowBlade]

Well, if there's any chance she'd be bitten, I wouldn't let her.

There have been reports of negative effects from the bite, but unfortunately, I have never been bitten by one before, and thats really the only information I would really trust.

They're just not as bad as Poecilotheria or Pterinochilus. Like I said, don't let their be a possibility of her getting bitten. Its never cool for someone smaller to be bitten, smaller body mass, and of course, more painful/scary for them.

-Sean

 

[Thoth]

One thing also to note the age and gender of the t is also a factor, as it is know that hte composition of the venom changes as the t matures and there are amall differences between the venom of a male and female t (I believe the study was done with Pterinochilus and Lasaidora)

 

[Venom]

Did you mean to put Psalmopoeus on that list venom?

-Sean

Psalmos are NW. Got you on this one Dude:}

Yeah, I know they are New World, and I fully realize they don't even register on a "med' significant" T's list--their venom is pretty much negligible. The only reason I gave that listing at all was, as Julesaussies explained, that the original post asked for a ranking in order of those five species/ genera.

I have Cystic Fibrosis! good read that was! ill have to wear a suit of armour when dealing with my pokies.

I listed cystic fibrosis as a condition sensitive to pokie venom because some pokie bites have caused difficulty breathing/ tightness of the chest, and for people with CF, getting sufficient oxygen is already difficult enough. ( I have a friend with CF, so I know. ) You will want to avoid bites, for sure.

i disagree. because then copperheads and that missuaga rattler thingy wouldn't be called hots and they are.

i think hot means closer to medically significant than deadly. of course, i'm "defining" a term using another undefined term.... but hopefully the sort of connotation or whatever is more evident

We're confusing terminology sets I think. "Hot" is a crossover term from the snake hobby, and so it is a herping term. In the snake hobby, "hot" is used pretty loosely. Now that I think about it, I should have put more thought into how "hot" is used in its native environment: the snake hobby. You are right--the term does get applied to copperheads and massassaugas, neither of which qualifies for "deadly" as I explained the term. The massassauga has only ever caused 3 deaths in the state of Michigan, and hardly anyone dies from copperheads. Clearly, these should be called "dangerous," not "deadly," and if "hot" were taken to mean "deadly" in the herp hobby, then these would not deserve that term. Since the herp keepers do use "hot" to describe non deadly snakes, we must conclude that in their hobby, the word is used as a catch-all term and does not strictly mean "deadly."

I don't think "hot" should be used in the invertebrate hobby however, as we have a greater need for fine distinguishment between levels of venom severity. With snakes, even a low LD50 snake can be highly harmful or deadly, due to the much greater dosage of venom. If I remember right, the eastern diamond back rates at 10.51 mg / kg --not too potent by invert standards, but with a dosage of up to 660+ mg, it is still very serious. In short, it is easier for snakes to be highly serious than it is for inverts. The playing field is more level with snakes, so a catch-all term such as "hot" is more feasible, because even a small, low potency viper can be very harmful. Even a copperhead can cause the loss of a finger.

With inverts, all scorpions are venomous, and nearly all spiders are venomous--whereas only a small percentage of snake species are venomous. We therefore have to distinguish between venomous but non-hazardous species and hazardous venomous species. Due in part to their smaller venom yield, inverts cause a wider range of results caused by bites--from venom that does nothing to venom that kills in minutes or destroys whole limbs. Due to the nature of the hobby, we have more keepers who are not hard-core into highly venomous species, but still keep venomous species. With snakes, you either keep "hots," or your snakes do not envenomate--it is essentially venom or no venom. In our hobby, practically every species has venom, so it is not black and white, venom or no venom, but a matter of where on the spectrum of venomousness your species falls.

This is why we need specificity of degree, in defining how venomous our pets are: becaue they are all venomous. Venom they all have, but some are potent and some are not so potent. Since they aren't injecting nearly the amount that snakes do, the potency of the venom is a very important factor. Thus, we need to clearly define the threat level from each species, so that people who are fine and comfortable with keeping venomous, but non dangerous species will understand that species X venomous, and venomous to such-and-such a degree. We assume from the get-go that all our T's are venomous, but we need to know how badly they are venomous. With snakes it doesn't matter so much, since you can basically break it down to: has venom = is very dangerous, due to greater dosage on all potency levels.

So...for the invert hobby, I think we need to stick to deadly, dangerous, medically significant, and essentially harmless for describing the venom potential of a species, instead of using a vague term like "hot."

 

[C_Strike]

SOooo Venom, where is it you work? lol
Thats one hell of an interesting thread.
You seem highly clued up with toxicology.
Interesting subject i know sod all about, but higly interesting when talking about it in relation to the inverts and snakes.

 

[spid142]

niece help

Julesaussie, I think it would depend on whether she can keep her composure during feeding, with the unexpected that might happen. Example, while dropping a crix or roach in, what if the T suddenly moves to catch the food while the lid is still open? Or, during maintenance, the T runs up the side and stops at the cage opening, or, hopefully not, runs out of the cage? The psalmo can be fast like pokies, and these Ts can suddenly be a foot or so away in a blink. Could she handle these situations? Ts like pokies generally run rather than stand and threat, so, if something like this happens can she help catch the T? In these situations the T mostly just wants to run a ways trying to hide, and probly wouldnt result in a bite. So if she would remain calm I dont see why she couldnt help with the psalmo or pokies. Feeding is usually pretty easy, pokies pretty much either stay still when the cage door is opened, or run into their retreat.

 

[Crotalus]

i've never seen really good definitions that are obviously widely used for "medically significant" and "hot"... but if the reports (of which i've read three or four) of people being comatized from Poeci venom are true i would have a very hard time NOT considering them MS or hot.

And no where is there a single medical paper on these incidents to be found
I simply dont take a webforum bite report as the truth.

 

[Crotalus]

Also, species of the genus Harpactirella seem to have quite potent venom, theraphosid-wise.

-Sean

Thats questionable information

See here:

"They are all mildly venemous, the venom being neurotoxic. However, the smaller species from the Western Cape, Harpactirella lightfooti is reputed to be dangerous to man although there is no evidence of this. "

http://www.museums.org.za/bio/spiderweb/therapho.htm

 

[jr47]

the term hot in herps is only used to tell if a snake has venom or does not. it has nothing to do with how deadly they are. useing it for t's is kind of pointless. the damage a t can do depends on a very wide variety of things. i am diabetic, have ra, and im a bleeder. so concidering all this and a good bite could be fatal or could not. no one can say that a bite would kill me but it is possible.

 

[Bothrops]

the term hot in herps is only used to tell if a snake has venom or does not.

Not necessarily.

For example, there are a lot of rear-fanged snakes that, obviously, have venom, and they aren't HOT. It's not the same a Hydrodynastes gigas than a Dispholidus typus.

 

[jr47]

Not necessarily.

For example, there are a lot of rear-fanged snakes that, obviously, have venom, and they aren't HOT. It's not the same a Hydrodynastes gigas than a Dispholidus typus.

didn't know that. the majority of people keeping snakes uses the term to signify venomous from constrictor. not to indicate the level of harm it can do. but i really did think all snakes that are venomous were considered hot.

 

[pinkfoot]

Thats questionable information

See here:

"They are all mildly venemous, the venom being neurotoxic. However, the smaller species from the Western Cape, Harpactirella lightfooti is reputed to be dangerous to man although there is no evidence of this. "

http://www.museums.org.za/bio/spiderweb/therapho.htm

Respectfully, no research findings have been published on this species and a vague belief cannot establish fact.

'reputed to be dangerous to man although there is no evidence of this.', contradicts itself. Reputation is not scientific fact.

This is a great thread, however, so thank you to all concerned! :clap:

 

[Crotalus]

Respectfully, no research findings have been published on this species and a vague belief cannot establish fact.

'reputed to be dangerous to man although there is no evidence of this.', contradicts itself. Reputation is not scientific fact.

This is a great thread, however, so thank you to all concerned! :clap:

I think you misunderstood.

Some older tarantula books claim it to be, therefor the reputation of it to be dangerous.

More on H. lightfooti:

"Some theraphosids are known to deliver painful bites. Harpactira lightfooti, a baboon spider known from Cape Town and the Paarl region in South Africa are fairly aggressive and people sometimes get bitten. They produce a neurotoxic venom. Bites in humans results in a burning pain at the bite site. The patients after about two hours start to vomit; they show marked signs of shock, become pale and have difficulty walking. Bites are however, never fatal."

http://www.scienceinafrica.co.za/2002/november/baboon.htm

 

[Crotalus]

Not necessarily.

For example, there are a lot of rear-fanged snakes that, obviously, have venom, and they aren't HOT. It's not the same a Hydrodynastes gigas than a Dispholidus typus.

Theres also colubrids with a toxic saliva, such as Rhabdophis sp., which some bites were fatal. the effect are very much like boomslang envenomation.
But they are not per se venomous snakes, allthought they should be treated as such.

 

[pinkfoot]

"Some theraphosids are known to deliver painful bites. Harpactira lightfooti, a baboon spider known from Cape Town and the Paarl region in South Africa are fairly aggressive and people sometimes get bitten. They produce a neurotoxic venom. Bites in humans results in a burning pain at the bite site. The patients after about two hours start to vomit; they show marked signs of shock, become pale and have difficulty walking. Bites are however, never fatal."

http://www.scienceinafrica.co.za/2002/november/baboon.htm

Thank you for the reference. I'm happy to concur that this is indeed a recognised authority (Ansie Dippenaar-Schoeman) and accept her findings. My point is simply that hearsay plays no part in education, so I think we're on the same page.

 

[Thoth]

I have Cystic Fibrosis! good read that was! ill have to wear a suit of armour when dealing with my pokies.

I would avoid getting bitten by most ts because with cyctic fibrosis, you have defect ion channels (sodium channels, I believe though I could be wrong). T venom is an effective ion channel inhibitior, so it would exacerbate your condition.

Be careful and take care.

 

[Merfolk]

Read about people getting bit by P irminia and get pretty sick (nausea, cramps)
Do you think it is because of allergies or the thing is really hot?

 

[Thoth]

Read about people getting bit by P irminia and get pretty sick (nausea, cramps)
Do you think it is because of allergies or the thing is really hot?

Nausea and cramps would be typical of t envenomation because of the nature of the venom. It inhibits ion channels which are key in the function of your nerves and muscles.

There are a lot of factors in how badly one responds to t venom, so unless a controlled study is done no real way to tell how or to what extent the venom of a t will affect an average person.

Though I believe Psalmopeus as a genus are taxonomically closer to Poecilitheria than other NW arboreals (though others more knowledgable please correct me if I am wrong). so it may explain the strong effect of the venom reported anecdotally.


a table of relative t toxicity (for a mouse anyway) for those curious
http://www.arachnoboards.com/ab/showpost.php?p=679047&postcount=1

 

[julesaussies]

This is a great thread, however, so thank you to all concerned! :clap:

Yes, i was very surprised to see how much great information came out of what i thought was a pretty simple question but couldn't find in search. Thank you for everyone who contributed. Once again i learned a lot. jules

 

[Fishstix]

It's actually from the genus harpactirella that the "hot" lightfooti comes. Apparentlly quite common too.

 

[venomous.com]

It's not the same a Hydrodynastes gigas than a Dispholidus typus.

I'd forgotten all about the FWC, cool snakes. Another rear fang that I kept was the Boiga dendrophila and I never considered those hot.