Handling, how?!

[Albireo Wulfbooper]

Yup. The handler I worked with brings an assortment of his most calm animals, but then assesses their mood throughout the day and will take animals off the line if they show the slightest bit of stress. Sometimes one comes along for the ride and never comes out all day. Just the way it goes. Handling for education, if done with great caution, care, and planning, can be a worthwhile risk, but never think for a minute that it isn't a risk!

Curious, @cold blood, exactly which part of this post you disagree with. I suspect you feel that even in the educational/outreach realm, handling is not worthwhile, yes? I think there are compelling arguments to be made on both sides.

 

[Frogdaddy]

I don't understand your logic either. All I see is contradictions.

I'm not condemning using feeders, obviously I feed insects to my tarantulas too (though I don't see how the purpose an animal is bred for has anything to do with the ethics of killing it).

Tarantulas are mindless invertebrates just the same as crickets. Crickets don't gain anything from being fed to tarantulas, tarantulas don't gain anything from being handled. Why is it justifiable to use feeders for the benefit of keeping your tarantula (which you keep because you enjoy it), which has a 100% chance of causing harm an animal whose fate you're responsible for, but not justifiable to handle the tarantula (because some people enjoy handling them) which carries a small risk of causing harm to an animal you're responsible for?

Obviously we all feed live animals to our T's as that's all they eat. They don't eat veggies, so we have no choice. So if you think it's unethical to feed your tarantulas feeder insects I'll gladly take your T's off your hands for you. Do you eat meat in any form? Cow, chicken, pork? Those animals were bred, raised, and sold as food for you, you don't have a problem eating them, how are feeder crickets any different?
Crickets DO NOT have a 100% chance of causing harm to a tarantula. Can they? Yes, but only while a tarantula is vulnerable during a molt, which is a very very small percentage of time during it's entire life. Furthermore a responsible keeper would not intentionally allow crickets to be in the enclosure during a molt. Does it happen on occasion when a T may surprise you with a molt? Perhaps rarely.Yet there are no masses of reports in the annals of AB showing mass T deaths due to crickets during molts.
Your argument has no merit, as you clearly state in your above post "tarantulas don't gain anything from being handled" Thank you for agreeing with me. So since you don't have a leg to stand on, you have changed the debate to the ethics of feeding crickets. One has nothing to do with the other as by your own admittance you feed crickets, as does every other T keeper. So the question remains, why handle T's. We've already covered everything that can go wrong, from stressing the T to a deadly fall, to the handler receiving a bite. What benefit does it serve the T? Name one benefit? You can't. There is no benefit,

 

[Tarantula155]

Handling is risky to the tarantula, but what I don't understand about the debate is why people argue that it should never be done because it's "selfish" and "has no benefit to the spider".

If arthropod welfare and ethics is what you're concerned about, isn't it even more selfish to kill hundreds of feeders just so you can have T's to look at? Only difference between a cricket and a T is that one is bigger and more expensive. As long as it's understood that there's a risk involved, why try to police what people can do with their own bugs?

Solid post.

 

[Salmonsaladsandwich]

Obviously we all feed live animals to our T's as that's all they eat. They don't eat veggies, so we have no choice. So if you think it's unethical to feed your tarantulas feeder insects I'll gladly take your T's off your hands for you. Do you eat meat in any form? Cow, chicken, pork? Those animals were bred, raised, and sold as food for you, you don't have a problem eating them, how are feeder crickets any different?
Crickets DO NOT have a 100% chance of causing harm to a tarantula. Can they? Yes, but only while a tarantula is vulnerable during a molt, which is a very very small percentage of time during it's entire life. Furthermore a responsible keeper would not intentionally allow crickets to be in the enclosure during a molt. Does it happen on occasion when a T may surprise you with a molt? Perhaps rarely.Yet there are no masses of reports in the annals of AB showing mass T deaths due to crickets during molts.
Your argument has no merit, as you clearly state in your above post "tarantulas don't gain anything from being handled" Thank you for agreeing with me. So since you don't have a leg to stand on, you have changed the debate to the ethics of feeding crickets. One has nothing to do with the other as by your own admittance you feed crickets, as does every other T keeper. So the question remains, why handle T's. We've already covered everything that can go wrong, from stressing the T to a deadly fall, to the handler receiving a bite. What benefit does it serve the T? Name one benefit? You can't. There is no benefit,

You'll notice that I said I don't have a problem with using feeders... my point is merely that anyone who keeps tarantulas has no problem with harming and killing arthropods. I'm not here to debate whether killing bugs is right or wrong, merely that all tarantula hobbyists already do it.

The animal i'm referring to that has a 100% chance of coming to harm is the feeder. Feeder insects are animals you own whose wellbeing or lack thereof you are responsible for, just like the tarantula.

What I am saying is that there is no difference between tarantulas and feeder insects in the grand scheme of things. They're both living, breathing arthropods that you own, you just use them for different purposes. It's inherently selfish to keep tarantulas, and it's inherently selfish to use feeder insects to sustain said tarantulas. Just because something is selfish doesn't mean it's wrong or unethical, but if your stance is "taking risks by handling a tarantula is selfish and therefore unethical because the tarnatula could be harmed", I find that absurd when you have no problem with killing feeders.

The only difference between tarantulas and crickets is the value we place on them. Tarantulas are more valuable to us, so most people don't want them to come to harm. If you own a tarantula, and have decided that part of the enjoyment you selfishly gain from owning it comes from handling it, why not? If everyone is allowed to play god with arthropods we own like we do with feeders every day, you have just as much a right to risk the value placed on the tarantula as anyone does to use feeders.

 

[Matt Man]

and for those of us with decent sized collections that's a lot of dead in a week

and if you have lots of slings (breeding), all those fruit flies and pinheads....

 

[Arachnophoric]

Feeding your tarantulas is a necessary part of keeping and raising them. You know what isn't necessary whatsoever when keeping Ts? Putting them at risk of injury or death because you want it to crawl on you.

 

[Salmonsaladsandwich]

Feeding your tarantulas is a necessary part of keeping and raising them. You know what isn't necessary whatsoever when keeping Ts? Putting them at risk of injury or death because you want it to crawl on you.

But keeping T's isn't necessary to begin with. For virtually all keepers it's a purely selfish recreational activity.

 

[Asgiliath]

Here we go again

I handled a tarantula at an exotics show before I knew I shouldn't.

Never handled one of my own on purpose (I have a couple slings that love to bolt onto my hands during maintenance).

 

[Arachnophoric]

But keeping T's isn't necessary to begin with. For virtually all keepers it's a purely selfish recreational activity.

No, keeping Ts isn't necessary, but unlike handling tarantulas, keeping them has plenty of benefits for both parties in the act of doing so. Handling them only benefits the keeper and not the spider whatsoever.

 

[Albireo Wulfbooper]

Here we go again

I handled a tarantula at an exotics show before I knew I shouldn't.

Never handled one of my own on purpose (I have a couple slings that love to bolt onto my hands during maintenance).

I have an amblypygi that crawls out on my hand almost every time I do maintenance on her enclosure. Arachnids gonna arach, I guess.

 

[viper69]

But these handling videos are quite confusing, because they make it seem like the Ts are always so calm.

These are WILD animals- nothing less/more. DO NOT be disillusioned. Plenty of people report how their docile T decided to leap off their hand and the T died.

 

[Craig73]

I feel uncomfortable when my slings occasionally run onto me when I open up their enclosures for feedings. It’s cute, but personally they are just look and no touch.
I support the whole education aspect, but really can be done without handling. I like sharks, seeing them on the other side of a barrier is just fine, I don’t need to be thown in the pool with one to know how cool they can be.

 

[BennyBTamachi]

No, keeping Ts isn't necessary, but unlike handling tarantulas, keeping them has plenty of benefits for both parties in the act of doing so. Handling them only benefits the keeper and not the spider whatsoever.

Yes, the activity of keeping Tarantulas may bring benefits to the keeper and the tarantula, but is also definitely harmful for the feeders.

In comparison, the activity of handling Tarantulas is done purely for the enjoyment of the keeper, while it is harmful for the tarantula (many people do not get that it is harmful, and this is what is mostly communicated here on the board).

None of the harm mentioned in the above activities is truly necessary for we can always decide not to perform these activities.

Yet, I'm part of the mass here, never handled my Ts, never will (bring no enjoyment to me) and always advised against it. But I'm just trying to listen to @Salmonsaladsandwich and in my opinion, his comparison is not a complete nonsense, if I want to be truly honnest with myself. But happy to discuss further.

 

[Hakuna]

If you really enjoy holding it that much...and do not care if you kill your tarantula...then fine, go pick it up. I hope it bites you though.

 

[DaveM]

I don't understand your logic either. All I see is contradictions.

I'm not condemning using feeders, obviously I feed insects to my tarantulas too (though I don't see how the purpose an animal is bred for has anything to do with the ethics of killing it).

Tarantulas are mindless invertebrates just the same as crickets. Crickets don't gain anything from being fed to tarantulas, tarantulas don't gain anything from being handled. Why is it justifiable to use feeders for the benefit of keeping your tarantula (which you keep because you enjoy it), which has a 100% chance of causing harm an animal whose fate you're responsible for, but not justifiable to handle the tarantula (because some people enjoy handling them) which carries a small risk of causing harm to an animal you're responsible for?

Plants are more mindless than these inverts. Let's do an Aristotelian analogy.

cricket : tarantula :: dandelion : orchid

Cricket is to tarantula as dandelion is to orchid.

Dandelions are short-lived, common everywhere, hard to eradicate, pestilential weeds that grow and spread like wildfire, but they have their uses. If I stomp on dandelions, uproot them, eat them it in salad, weave them into flower crowns for my little baby girl: am I a bad man?
Orchids are long-lived, tend to be very rare in the wild, may be endangered, are hard to cultivate, appreciated wherever they're found. If I pluck rare orchids, use their petals to decorate my bathwater, place their blossoms in my neighbor's hair to hide his bald spot and augment his fleeting beauty...

I'm glad there are laws to protect dogs; they have minds that love us, and we love them too. Pigs have minds too, probably more intelligent and selfish than dogs; they live in their own excrement, and people want bacon.
Human valuations are tricky, fickle, tempermental, irrational, protean, emotional, hard to justify, mercurial, twisted beasts... but they're everything that matters to us.

 

[jrh3]

Hey tarantula people,

I really wonder... how do people handle their A. Geniculata??

Mine is biting everything that approaches... no chance to handle that spider
Yet I see a lot of videos on youtube handling this species.

Are they more relaxed when they grow up? Mine is still juvenile..
I know at least two people will say you should never handle a T, but I think it's OK if you're careful and don't put the T at risk.

Looking forward to hear your thoughts/experiences.

Don’t handle tarantulas, would you handle a fish?

 

[cold blood]

. Handling for education, if done with great caution, care, and planning, can be a worthwhile risk, but never think for a minute that it isn't a risk!

Sorry, i couldnt disagree more.

Risks shouldnt be part of education....known risks especially.

Handling for education is the opposite of educational.

I compare it to teaching a new driver how to operate a car by teaching burnouts and doughnuts. Like those acts, handling both has NO redeeming qualities and in fact, serves only to misrepresent the animal to new people....its a big part of why we have to answer the question "do you handle them" to pretty much every single person we meet outside the hobby...its also why we see handling maintain its popularity despite having ZERO redeeming qualities.

Teach people by handling, and you dont teach them anything other than "handling is fun and ok". Venomous animals should be treated with respect, not fondled like hamsters.

If i want to educate someone about fish, raptors, venomous snakes, loins, gorillas, etc., i can do it just fine without a handling demo....so why on earth does it make sense or seem so necessary with regards to ts?? Its not.

Handling does NOT in any way shape or form help the educational process....hell, ive never once handled for fun or education, yet im still pretty well educated on ts.....ive never once educated by handling, yet that doesnt mean i havent been able to or even had a hard time educating others properly about them.

Handling demos breed the mindset handling is ok, something the hobby as a whole does NOT and will never benefit from...this thread and the hundreds like it are perfect examples.

New person educated by handling gets a t, and literally the first thing on their minds is learning how to handle, they reach out to find a community with completely different values contradicting the handling demos they had been part of. Many educated like this come to the hobby with the misconception that not only is handling ok, but that all, or most keepers are handling them, which just isnt true.

No disrespect to those doing education demos, but those demos are literally the bane of the hobby....and its the single biggest mindset that needs to change for most new keepers....handling demos IMO do nothing but set the hobby back and prevent it from moving forward to a more positive, educated place.

We shouldnt do handling demos with ts for the same reason we dont do it with fish....because it gives the wrong impression (mis-education) to the individuals watching about the animal, its care and responsible behavior with owning that animal.

People educated by methods other than handling, generally speaking, recieve the far superior education.

 

[Salmonsaladsandwich]

Plants are more mindless than these inverts. Let's do an Aristotelian analogy.

cricket : tarantula :: dandelion : orchid

Cricket is to tarantula as dandelion is to orchid.

Dandelions are short-lived, common everywhere, hard to eradicate, pestilential weeds that grow and spread like wildfire, but they have their uses. If I stomp on dandelions, uproot them, eat them it in salad, weave them into flower crowns for my little baby girl: am I a bad man?
Orchids are long-lived, tend to be very rare in the wild, may be endangered, are hard to cultivate, appreciated wherever they're found. If I pluck rare orchids, use their petals to decorate my bathwater, place their blossoms in my neighbor's hair to hide his bald spot and augment his fleeting beauty...

I'm glad there are laws to protect dogs; they have minds that love us, and we love them too. Pigs have minds too, probably more intelligent and selfish than dogs; they live in their own excrement, and people want bacon.
Human valuations are tricky, fickle, tempermental, irrational, protean, emotional, hard to justify, mercurial, twisted beasts... but they're everything that matters to us.

I don’t think people will have any severe criticisms someone who decides to do whatever they want with orchids they grew/bought themselves though, unless it’s an extraordinarily rare orchid. I don’t think choosing to handle vs. not handle tarantulas has ever contributed to a shortage of specimens.

There are places where tarantulas are common as dirt and people kill them on sight without a second thought, the same attitude many people who keep tarantulas still have towards cockroaches and flies in their home. It’s all relative and no amount of value placed on certain organisms by members of a niche hobby makes anything sacred.

 

[moricollins]

I don’t think people will have any severe criticisms someone who decides to do whatever they want with orchids they grew/bought themselves though, unless it’s an extraordinarily rare orchid. I don’t think choosing to handle vs. not handle tarantulas has ever contributed to a shortage of specimens.

There are places where tarantulas are common as dirt and people kill them on sight without a second thought, the same attitude many people who keep tarantulas still have towards cockroaches and flies in their home. It’s all relative and no amount of value placed on certain organisms by members of a niche hobby makes anything sacred.

What's your point?

People are advocating against a practice that can cause harm to the Tarantula. This is a forum for Tarantula enthusiasts. Expecting to get a different response is pretty stupid. People's position on caring about cockroaches, crickets, etc. is irrelevant.

The OP is allowed to act upon whatever ideas he/she decides to do (no matter how stupid other people might find them). People are, likewise, allowed to voice their opinion on the proposed handling idea that this person is proposing to do.

 

[Matt Man]

His point is merely to the ethics of it. We keep Ts for our selfish pleasure. If we were worried about the ethics of it we wouldn't do that. People handle them for their selfish pleasure (same as keeping them)
and no owner gives a rats backside to the feeders we keep. So you can't have a logically consistent argument about Tarantula Husbandry on an ethical standpoint because we weekly kill other arthropods to
maintain our hobby. You can argue 'it is putting your investment at risk', and 'you may be really sad if you drop your T and it dies' and be consistent but when we care nothing about the existence of the feeders
and claim we care so deeply about the Ts is just not an ethically consistent position. It's like animal rights activists who put all their energy into cute animals like baby seals but have no interest in saving ugly ones.
You can't make ethical decisions based on rarity and beauty.