Hadogenes sp?

skinheaddave

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Looks like some form of H.troglodytes to me. On the other hand, I don't know that much about taxonomy within this genus. There seems to be a wide variation in colour in what the pet trade calls "H.troglodytes" which means there could be multiple species which are being misidentified or that the genus contains substantial variation. Anyhow, it looks to be a female, whatever species it is.

Cheers,
Dave
 

phoenixxavierre

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Originally posted by skinheaddave
Looks like some form of H.troglodytes to me. On the other hand, I don't know that much about taxonomy within this genus. There seems to be a wide variation in colour in what the pet trade calls "H.troglodytes" which means there could be multiple species which are being misidentified or that the genus contains substantial variation. Anyhow, it looks to be a female, whatever species it is.

Cheers,
Dave
Thanks, Dave!
I have kept and bred H. troglodytes before but as you've noticed this one looks a bit different than the typical species (at least in coloration). Yes, she's a female (a rather big one).
I have three of these and am trying to figure out if they might be H. bicolor or some other Hadogenes. Thanks for your input and help, Dave!
It's so very nice when someone more experienced than myself is willing to share their knowledge with me!

Regards,

Paul
 

atavuss

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Originally posted by phoenixxavierre
I have kept and bred H. troglodytes before
Paul, any info you would like to share about breeding the trogs? I have a male and female together in a 66 sterilite bin. there are two hides in opposing corners, and two water dishes in the other two opposing corners. there is a large flat rock in the center of the bin. temps are lows of 72 and highs of 82. both are eating well and I feed them as much as they want. I have not seen any courting/mating behaviour except for when I first put them together and the female was the one that was interested. they have been together for about 3 weeks now.
Ed
 

skinheaddave

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Ed,

I know the question wasn't directed at me, but I looked up some climate data and during what I suspect is breeding season (right about now -- anyone with the first Polis book can probably double-check this), the average temperature is around 82 with the average maximum being about 92. You might want to consider raising your temps a bit.

Rainfall is also about maximum for the year which still isn't much. However, a few mistings would not be out of order. Also, the introduction of plenty of crickets is good. Both should be well fed and convinced that now is a time of plenty. ;)

Lastly, today the sun rose in Johannesburg at 5:20 and set at 19:03. If you do the math, that's about a 14:10 photoperiod. You may have to artificialy extend the photoperiod to compensate for our shorter days here in the Northern hemisphere.

Candlelight, some Barry White and you're set.

Cheers,
Dave
 

atavuss

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Originally posted by skinheaddave
Ed,

I know the question wasn't directed at me, but I looked up some climate data and during what I suspect is breeding season (right about now -- anyone with the first Polis book can probably double-check this), the average temperature is around 82 with the average maximum being about 92. You might want to consider raising your temps a bit.

Rainfall is also about maximum for the year which still isn't much. However, a few mistings would not be out of order. Also, the introduction of plenty of crickets is good. Both should be well fed and convinced that now is a time of plenty. ;)

Lastly, today the sun rose in Johannesburg at 5:20 and set at 19:03. If you do the math, that's about a 14:10 photoperiod. You may have to artificialy extend the photoperiod to compensate for our shorter days here in the Northern hemisphere.

Candlelight, some Barry White and you're set.

Cheers,
Dave
thanks Dave! I have been toying with the idea of a small (50 watt) basking light aimed at the center of the enclosure to bump up the temps a bit, I think I will try that and keep an eye on temp levels.
Ed
 

phoenixxavierre

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Originally posted by atavuss
Paul, any info you would like to share about breeding the trogs? I have a male and female together in a 66 sterilite bin. there are two hides in opposing corners, and two water dishes in the other two opposing corners. there is a large flat rock in the center of the bin. temps are lows of 72 and highs of 82. both are eating well and I feed them as much as they want. I have not seen any courting/mating behaviour except for when I first put them together and the female was the one that was interested. they have been together for about 3 weeks now.
Ed
Sure, Ed.
The Hadogenes troglodytes I kept were collected in Mozambique, though, so the keeping may be different than with yours. From what I've seen and read they usually give birth in the early months of January/February.

The mating occurred during the evening mostly, though I did see occasional advances during the day.

In Mozambique at this time it's usually wet and quite humid throughout, so I kept the humdity up and they did great. Right now it's ranging 70% at daytime to 95% at night. The temps are ranging from 90F during the day to 70F during the evening, so I agree with Dave on the day temps, if you are able to. Otherwise, try to keep it above 70F, as you have been. Your setup sounds excellent.

Sunrise is around 5am in Mozambique, and sunset at quarter after 6.

That would be around 13 hours of light? Very close to what Dave found.

The only major difference in our setups is yours is much larger than mine was (I kept male and female in a 10 gallon, though I ended up moving the male out when the babies left mammas back), and I positioned 3 or 4 large flat rocks vertically into the sandy/peaty soil so that they were stable but very close to eachother, if not leaning on one another, along with various pieces of bark and old broken pottery shards, cacti, and rocks. The female would alternately hang on the side of the rock, kind of like a whipscorp, or would just hang out on the substrate by the cacti or by the water dish.

I separated the babies from mamma I think a little over a couple months after the birth, but have heard of it occuring as soon as a month, and as long as a few months after birth.

Do you know which country your flats were collected in, as it might have an impact on the best way to keep yours?

One last little tidbit.

I was once a regular mister of my tanks. Now I usually overflow the waterdishes to up humidity.

However, when I kept the H. troglodytes, I did the misting on one end of the tank, leaving half dry. I would put it on the softest most diffuse level of mist. Sometimes the mamma would be over in the area of the water dish (the end i would mist) and she would get a light misting with the babies on her back.

I had no fatalities due to molting problems. So now that I am keeping a colony of whipscorps, three of which have produced babies and are carrying them about, I am rethinking the misting.

I say this because the females with the babies on them gravitate to the waterdish and moist side of the setup I have them in.

Also, I have noticed some fatalities due to molting issues (their first molt). I wonder if this could be due to lack of rainfall, since it is quite humid where they are found, and rains fairly often this time of year.

Oh, and one other thing I almost forgot, the flatrocks will NOT breed until you perform them their wedding ceremony.

Flat rocks are firm believers in karma and have strong spiritual beliefs regarding sexuality and unless their union is treated as sacred they will not partake in it.

Dress your male up in a tux (or whatever you feel to be appropriate for a south african wedding) and your female up in a little wedding gown and veil (see in parentheses above), and separate them until the ceremony. Remember it's bad luck to let them see eachother before the wedding, bad mojo! You could even invite some inverts out of your collection from the surrounding countries and have a big invert bash and everyone can get smashed afterward and listen to some good south african beats!

Make sure the male has a flat rock to deposit his seed on and a thousand to one he'll have it all ready for her when he brings her back to his pad for the honeymoon!!

Oops, there I go anthropomorphizing again, dammit!

Never mind those last four or five paragraphs, hehe, I need to take my "medication".

I hope all is going wonderfully for you and yours, Ed, and thanks for all your interesting posts here and elsewhere! It's great reading them! See you around and I hope you have a most spectacular 2003 (and beyond)!

Paul

PS There would be smilies and winkies and stuff in the body of my reply, but I'm too lazy to turn the vb code thingy on, but I'm pretty sure you won't misinterpret the tone intended (I hope).
For some reason (probably of my own doing) I can't have that on and post pictures at the same time, and I hate going back and forth just to be able to post pictures.
 

phoenixxavierre

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Originally posted by skinheaddave
Paul,

He has posted a pic here, about half-way down the page.

Cheers,
Dave
Thanks, Dave!

Ed, nice pics, nice scorps! You had some concern over cannabilism.

The male and female I kept together until the male died of old age. I separated them once when the babies started running around.

I removed the babies once they were no longer returning to mamma for safety and then replaced the male .

The female (named Olive) missed the company of the male (Slim), after he died (anthropomorphizing again, I know). There was no physical damage to Slim so I don't think she killed him, I'm pretty definite it was old age or natural causes as he was quite huge and obviously full grown. They never acted aggressive toward one another, either, other than to push each other out of the way, etc.

From what I've seen personally, as long as they are well fed, and you are doing that, I don't think cannabilization is likely. Trying to toss all the info I got your way.

Take care and good luck with the breeding!

Paul
 

Mojo Jojo

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Originally posted by phoenixxavierre
hello,

does anyone recognize what species of flat rock this is? thanks,

paul
This is sold as a Banded Flat Rock at a local exotic pet store.

Jon
 

phoenixxavierre

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Re: Re: Hadogenes sp?

Originally posted by Big Dragonfly
This is sold as a Banded Flat Rock at a local exotic pet store.

Jon
Thankyou Jon!

Yes, it's also known as the Olive-keeled flat rock! One of my faves in the scorpion world, shiny, nice coloration, and pet rocks, very reluctant to sting!

Talk to you later,

Paul
 

phoenixxavierre

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Originally posted by invertepet
I've seen these offered as 'H. bicolor'... FWIW.

bill
H. paucidens? sold as H. bicolor? Doesn't surprise me really, as the first time I bought a flat rock it ended up being an Iomachus or Iopolitus or Euscorpios or something like that (sorry can't remember the family) I traded out a lot of captive bred species of these (they were wild collected in Mozambique, a male/female pair), so I bet there are at least 30 Euscorpios or whatever floating around out there as H. troglodytes.

Does anyone out there happen to have photos of H. bicolor for us to compare with H. paucidens?


Thanks,

Paul
 

Mad Scientist

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thanks Dave! I have been toying with the idea of a small (50 watt) basking light aimed at the center of the enclosure to bump up the temps a bit, I think I will try that and keep an eye on temp levels.
Just a minor note I think all cold blooded creatures use Thermo-regulation (I believe that's what it's called); by going out into the sunlight to get warm, and going someplace dark to cool down. Being how that an ecto-thermic creature's body temperature is usually that of it's environment.... Well to make a long story short (if it's not to late) being under direct heat from the light being in the "center of the enclosure" with no place for them to escape might overheat them. I always watch on the Discovery channel and when they do a desert scorpion special it always shows them trying to escape from open areas by making burrows, or using other abandoned homes. Yes I know a 50 watt bulb probably doesn't put of much heat, but I believe I read that most bulbs put off 10% light and 90% heat.

So maybe putting the light on either side of the enclosure would give them a place to retreat from being under the light.
 

Kugellager

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I too would recommend that if you use a light to put it off to one side as this will let the scorp have a nice gradation of temps to choose from. An excellent example would be either my H.spinifer or Haddie enclosures.

They both consist of a 20 long tank with most of the top closed off with plexiglass. I used a 60w bulb in a reflector lamp placed at the end w/o the plexiglass. The temps range from about 100F under the lamp to about 80F at the far end of the enclosure depending on the room temp. Lamps are off in the summer...actually I use one or two fluorescents to provide day/night cycle as well as light for plants in some enclosures.

http://www.arachnopets.com/arachnoboards/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1126

John
];')
 
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atavuss

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Originally posted by proteus
Just a minor note I think all cold blooded creatures use Thermo-regulation (I believe that's what it's called); by going out into the sunlight to get warm, and going someplace dark to cool down. Being how that an ecto-thermic creature's body temperature is usually that of it's environment.... Well to make a long story short (if it's not to late) being under direct heat from the light being in the "center of the enclosure" with no place for them to escape might overheat them. I always watch on the Discovery channel and when they do a desert scorpion special it always shows them trying to escape from open areas by making burrows, or using other abandoned homes. Yes I know a 50 watt bulb probably doesn't put of much heat, but I believe I read that most bulbs put off 10% light and 90% heat.

So maybe putting the light on either side of the enclosure would give them a place to retreat from being under the light.
I just went and checked the temps with a non-contact infrared thermometer. the warmest spot I could find was 100 degrees right in the center where the long flat rock is. the coolest temp was either hide where it was 83 degrees. the 50 watt basking light is 16" from the rock. there is a 12-12 photoperiod set with a digital timer. there are two hides and two water dishes, I keep the water dishes full and overflow them slightly once a week. I have had the basking light setup for at least a month and I have been carefully monitoring the temps, so far it seems to be working well. I occasionally see the female basking (for the lack of a better term) at the outer edge of the basking light aimpoint where the temp is in the low 90's. I gave Mike "Troll" his male back (the infamous "Pinchy") and I got an adult male from Bill (invertepet). sure hope I get some babies from the female, I hear they have a long gestation time though.
Ed
 
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